Duezzer

Hello All.

Here is the story - Bought the 99 last year - In beautiful shape had under 65,000 miles - Had the safety done and put about $1300 in. Minor stuff.

Put about 15.000 km on it over the summer and this winter thought I would do some work to it.

On my to do list was - IMS, (by European Parts) Clutch and Flywheel and a RMS.
While I had it up on the hoist also put fresh plugs in it. Fresh Oil and new air and oil filter.

Everything went as planned - IMS went in nice as did the new oiling system. RMS, Flywheel and clutch beautiful - Had bought new boots for the plugs but the ones that were in it were like new so just put in a new set of Bosch plugs.

Went to fire it up and it flooded right away - notice the gas peddle felt odd - found the throttle cable had slid off the cam. So pulled plugs let it air out and tried again - no luck - it flooded again. Pulled plugs cleaned and dried and then thought - I have new boots lets put them on.

Car fired up and purred like a kitten, sounded beautiful - let it run a couple min maybe 3 and shut it down. It was getting late and thought I would put it all together the next day.

The next day put car all back together - covers on lowered hoist getting ready for a test run - Went to fire it up and it FLOODED again. Pulled plugs went to town bought new plugs - flooded again -

Had the bright idea to put di-electric grease in the electrical connectors when we did the work - - thought I had weekend a signal to the ECU or something - pulled all connectors and cleaned out the grease. - Put plugs in and ..... wait for it... FLOODED!!!

It comes close to firing but very weekly. The plugs are fuel wet. Pulled out air cleaner checked it - brand new and air blows thru it.

Looking for some ideas on what to check - Ran once beautifully out of 7 or so attempts.

Thanks

Duezzer

Macster

There is no need to use dielectric grease on the coil/plug connectors or at the coil/wiring harness connectors.

Since the engine runs ok once in a while or when it doesn't it does attempt to run (or at least fire) weakly, it reads like the engine is getting spark but too much fuel.

IOWs, like you said, it is flooding, or being flooded.

Leaking injectors is a possibility, but a long shot. They don't all just start leaking at once.

But it could just take one per bank, which is still against the odds, but not as much as having all go bad at once.

If you find a plug or two particularly wet with gas this could be a clue that cylinder's injector is leaking.

A common failure point would be the fuel pressure regulator. If this has failed or is going bad it can supply too much fuel pressure and this can effectively flood the engine. The DME expects a narrow range of fuel pressure and times the injector pulse widths accordingly. If the pressure is too high the engine receives too much fuel.

Some fuel pressure regulators require a vacuum line from the manifold to help it adjust fuel pressure based on manifold vacuum. High vacuum is low load so the pressure is reduced some. Low vacuum is high load and the fuel pressure is increased some.

However, my recollection is the '99 fuel pressure regulator doesn't have a vacuum line connection with the manifold.

So this eliminates the possibly a vacuum line got damaged.

What might have happened is the fuel pressure regulator got knocked about. It is tough and can take this but if there was any debris in the thing this might have lodged somewhere and is causing the fuel pressure regulator to deliver higher than expected fuel pressure.

The pressure regulator could just be going bad too. Rare but it can happen.

Since you were at the engine you need to retrace your steps and check every line, hose for a crack. They generally crack underneath and close to the connector.

Check all hose fittings and electrical connections. What can happen with an older car is corrosion sets in. A connector is separated. A weakened pin breaks off in the socket. When the connector is connected the connection is marginal or intermittently good or bad.

Or a pin remains intact but bends when being reconnected. The connection can be marginal/intermittent.

Byprodriver

I find it is crucial to push the coil electrical connecter boots away from the connecter fittings in order to fully engage it to the coil. This causes a loud snap when it is locked in place. then pull the boot over the connecter. The problem could be as simple as this.

Duezzer

Thanks for the ideas on some other things to look for. Will start hunting for vacuum leaks I may have caused or a connector I may have not got together properly.

One thing I failed to mention is I change the Oil separator also as the car had on a few occasions blew a large puff of white smoke. I was told likely culprit was the oil separator was the culprit...

I will recheck the connectors but sure all were good, this is a normal practice of mine - All the connectors onto the coils are checked to make sure the pivoting latch is in place.

When I pulled the original plugs they were a very dark brown - almost looks like I could go to a hotter plug - I live at 4000 ft above sea-level and 90% of the places this car goes is 3500' and up. Any thoughts on this?

If anyone has anymore ideas I could sure use the help.

Macster

If the puff of smoke was not accompanied by any engine misbehavior, the smoke was nothing important. They all do that, once in a while.

The elevation doesn't have anything do with the behavior. Lots of cars like yours live at 4K feet (and higher) with no issues. The DME with its population of sensors can or should be able to fuel the engine properly provided everything is working ok.

If you are sure the coils are properly connected and you have the right plugs in the engine, the behavior to me reads like a fuel supply problem, too much fuel.

This can be a fuel pressure regulator problem, or perhaps a bad coolant temperature or intake air temperature sensor.

If the sensor reads too low the DME will supply to rich a fuel mixture. There have been a few of these things go bad but none to the point they cause the engine to flood. However, there is always a first time. If you want to eliminate these you have to get an OBD2 code reader/data viewer and view these parameters in real time.

Now I have to back up a bit. While I said "fuel supply problem" above this is based on your report of the wet plugs.

I have to point out the plugs can be wet with fuel if the plugs aren't firing. Even though you are sure the coils are all securely connected there can still perhaps be a problem that results in the coils not being triggered.

Since as I understand the engine was fine before you did some work on it which among other things included a new clutch and flywheel I still feel like it is something you did inadvertently. For instance, I note the the flywheel has a crankshaft position sensor that you might have knocked out of position, or somehow affected the sensor's connection.

I kind of like this as the engine ran at least once just fine. Thus doesn't read like a bad connection of the CPS but one that is loose. If during engine cranking it just happens to obtain a good enough position it works. If it doesn't it doesn't work.

flyingpenguin

There is a vacuum line running from the intake manifold to the fuel pressure regulator.

See my reply to a recent post here: http://www.renntech.org/forums/topic...ning/?p=260514

Joost

extanker

check for a good spark coming from at least 2 coils.

Macster

Oh, yeah, then that's it. That line got damaged and the OP needs to go in and make it right again.

Duezzer

Oh, yeah, then that's it. That line got damaged and the OP needs to go in and make it right again.

I am not sure what you mean in the above line - The OP?

Macster

I was expressing my belief that the vacuum line to the fuel pressure regulator got damaged during the recent bit of work that was done to the car/engine.

And I was further expressing the opinion, well advice, that the OP (original poster, you IOWs) (and a common short hand way of referring to well, the original poster, without having to go back and actually look up the name -- sorry I'm a bit lazy sometimes but I meant no disrespect) should go back and correct this.

Let me try again.

The info posted by flyingpenguin there is a vacuum line to the fuel pressure regulator strongly suggests to me then the problem you posted about is probably related to this line being disconnected, or cracked or in some way not 100% functional, and thus my advice would be for you or someone (possibly whoever worked on the car) go back and check that the line is ok.

Duezzer

Macster - OP here.

Will be the first thing I check when I go back and work on it - Took some time away to get info from the forums and needed to pull back from the car so I don't go Loco,

One can only pull the plugs so many times and check so many conection before their brain slips into a world of despair.

Macster

It can be a bit much. One posts of a problem asking for help and then about a zillion possible explanations/things to check/etc get tossed at one and well, it can be a bit much.

Best not to act in haste.

Take it in and think about it awhile before acting.

Remember, when something appears concurrent with in this case engine work last thing touched first thing suspected comes into play.

Hoses/wiring/etc. on older cars/engines are more fragile and it doesn't take a person with the strength of a gorilla to cause an already dried out and possibly partially cracked hose to crack all the way. Just moving it about while fiddling around can be enough.

When I worked on cars I kept a stock of the common vacuum hose line sizes handy. Generally I'd just make a new vacuum line rather than risk leaving an older and possibly compromised hose in service.

Unfortunately, for newer cars this isn't always possible if the hose/line is a custom part.

Duezzer

Hi there. Update on progress

Installed a set of plugs that are one heat range hotter. Car took 3 attempts before it started. I let it run for 20 min to warn up really well and clear out any residual fuel.
Went to back it out of the garage. It stalled right away. Then hard to start. Once running again tried to back out again. It did the same thing. Shut down as soon as there was any load on the engine. Also tried to move it forward. Same issue. Very hard to start. Lots of spitting and sputtering then suddenly it catches and runs very smooth. Sometimes when it just fires up after a hard start if I let it go down to idle to quick it also quits running. When I say it quits it is a quick shut down. No spitting or spurting just quits. Looking for any ideas.. thanks in advance

Duezzer

A couple of notes - went thru before I put in the new plugs to see if I could find any bad electrical connection or vacuum leaks - I could not find any

I double checked the connections to the coils.

When we pulled the IMS it was in good shape - the seal had failed but the bearing was intact - I do not suspect the cam chain had skipped, When we did the install we put the locks in place on the cams and the pin in the front pulley. I also do not suspect a tooth slip from the repair end.

I only state this because of what I was told else where. I have a tough time believing it would run so smoothly once it did fire up if the chain had skipped a tooth but then again I really don't know.

Appreciate all the help and thoughts people have sent my way.

Keep them coming - really does help

Duezzer

Duezzer

When we did the work we also replaced the AOS - Is there a chance that a bad AOS could cause these issues. Improperly installation cause these problems.

I have looked at the connections as best I can - on the top the connecting pipe had a broken clamp that went onto the top of the AOS - I fixed it up and seems to be holding well. If i wiggle the pipe slightly it makes no difference to how the car is running. rest of the connections seem ok

Duzzer