New vs old Boxster Questions
11-18-2009, 10:32 AM
#1
Race Director
Thread Starter
New vs old Boxster Questions
Hello all, new old guy here.
I've got an itch for a convertible and a Boxster or 911cab are on top of my list. I realize they are very different but i like them both. Frankly, i think a Box S handles > a 911 C2 cab. I'll use my "I'm new here card" and get the dumb questions out of the way:
1. '08 Boxster RS 60 vs '08 Boxster S- Beside the color/options
& exhaust, are there any major differences?
2. '08 Boxster RS 60 vs '09 Boxster S- The 09 Engine is a DFI w/ 310hp vs the RS' 303. Is the difference noticeable?
3. '09 Boxster S vs '09 Cayman S- Why does the Cayman have 10hp more? I thought they were the same engines
tks
I've got an itch for a convertible and a Boxster or 911cab are on top of my list. I realize they are very different but i like them both. Frankly, i think a Box S handles > a 911 C2 cab. I'll use my "I'm new here card" and get the dumb questions out of the way:
1. '08 Boxster RS 60 vs '08 Boxster S- Beside the color/options
& exhaust, are there any major differences?
2. '08 Boxster RS 60 vs '09 Boxster S- The 09 Engine is a DFI w/ 310hp vs the RS' 303. Is the difference noticeable?
3. '09 Boxster S vs '09 Cayman S- Why does the Cayman have 10hp more? I thought they were the same engines
tks
11-18-2009, 10:40 AM
#2
Nordschleife Master
The deciding factor when we bought our 996CAB was fitment (and the ability to take our kids as well). I did not fit in the 986. I am 6'1" but more leg than torso so it was very uncomfortable with the seat all the way back. I had more room in the CAB. With that said, I have a 99 986 that is a race car. I fit great since I am able to get more room with the interior gutted 
11-18-2009, 06:05 PM
#3
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Hello all, new old guy here.
I've got an itch for a convertible and a Boxster or 911cab are on top of my list. I realize they are very different but i like them both. Frankly, i think a Box S handles > a 911 C2 cab. I'll use my "I'm new here card" and get the dumb questions out of the way:
1. '08 Boxster RS 60 vs '08 Boxster S- Beside the color/options
& exhaust, are there any major differences?
2. '08 Boxster RS 60 vs '09 Boxster S- The 09 Engine is a DFI w/ 310hp vs the RS' 303. Is the difference noticeable?
3. '09 Boxster S vs '09 Cayman S- Why does the Cayman have 10hp more? I thought they were the same engines
tks
I've got an itch for a convertible and a Boxster or 911cab are on top of my list. I realize they are very different but i like them both. Frankly, i think a Box S handles > a 911 C2 cab. I'll use my "I'm new here card" and get the dumb questions out of the way:
1. '08 Boxster RS 60 vs '08 Boxster S- Beside the color/options
& exhaust, are there any major differences?
2. '08 Boxster RS 60 vs '09 Boxster S- The 09 Engine is a DFI w/ 310hp vs the RS' 303. Is the difference noticeable?
3. '09 Boxster S vs '09 Cayman S- Why does the Cayman have 10hp more? I thought they were the same engines
tks
1) Marketing
2) Cmon.. 7hp? you can notice 7hp?
3) Marketing again.. helps justify the $10K premium for a Cayman
They are the same engine. Heck, I'd like to see independent dynos comparing the cars to see if they actually do have 10 more hp or notYou need to drive them all.. They are different. You might prefer the less closed in feeling of the 911 (ie, the +2 seting space) vs the firewall of the Boxsters.
11-19-2009, 11:18 AM
#4
Rennlist Member
Kosmo, the biggest difference in my eyes with the new DFI engine is a little extra piece of mind regarding the IMS.
When you check out the cars pay attention to wind buffeting in the Boxtser vs the 911 cab.
When you check out the cars pay attention to wind buffeting in the Boxtser vs the 911 cab.
11-19-2009, 10:02 PM
#6
IMS = Intermediate Shaft. There is a shaft running through the middle of the M96 motors (the M96 term is used for the water cooled motors in Porsche Boxsters and 911's made from model year 1997 to model year 2008) that drives the overhead cams via chains. Porsche used a relatively beefy bearing in the 1997 to 1999 cars. Then, for "serviceability", they switched to a much smaller bearing from MY 2000 to MY 2005. Porsche learned that this smaller bearing was failing and went to the largest bearing yet for the IMS bearing in 2006 to 2008 M96 motors.
IMS bearing failure seems to be a rare, but reoccuring failure in the 2000 to 2005 motors. I don't think it seems to be quite the concern in the 1997 to 1999 Boxsters (however, the '97, '98 and '99 Boxsters have other motor issues). I think many of the 2006 to 2008 cars are too new to comment on whether or not Porsche's increased IMS bearing size has proved an effective solution to the IMS bearing failures that have happened on prior year cars (I have a '08 and I'm hoping they solved this issue!).
Porsche abandoned the intermediate shaft concept for model year 2009 with the new motors in the 911 and Boxster/Cayman series. One counterpoint is that the new 2009 motor is so new that we won't see what major issues this motor develops, if any, for several years yet. The lastest motor design appears to be a design that may tend to prove more reliable than the M96 motors based on the elimination of the IMS and other "back to basics" design incorporations. The M96 motors were designed with a price point in mind to keep the Boxster and later 996 911 more affordable.
If the intermediate shaft bearing fails on an M96 motor, the shaft tends to wobble and the timing chains jump the drive sprocket and ultimately the valve train crashes into the pistons. You can imagine the carnage when this happens. I've read some owners were able to shut their car off when the "rattle of death" happens and salvage the motors. Others have reported that the entire motor is totaled from this failure.
There is an aftermarket IMS bearing replacement from a reputable company. Long term results from the use of this very beefy IMS bearing have yet to be proven IMO, but at first glance it appears to be a robust solution. This particular company seems to have designed a good technique for removing this IMS bearing without damaging the motor. Porsche has no recommended factory fix for the 2000 to 2005 IMS bearings (ask me how I know).
If the aftermarket fixes for the IMS bearing issues prove to be reliable, for under $2000, a 986/987/996/997 owner may be able to make an M96 motor extremely bulletproof. The top end of M96 motors seem to very robust , these motors make nice power for their displacement, have good fuel economy, sound exceptional under load and can go for hundreds of thousands of miles without needing any major service.
IMS bearing housing bolts can also leak and cause the common "nose drip". The nose drip leak can also be caused by a leaking Rear Main Seal (RMS). If the car is ever opened up for a clutch and / or flywheel service, you may wish to replace the Rear Main Seal, Intermediate shaft seal, IMS bearing housing bolts and other case bolts that can leak. The current Porsche case bolt upgrade uses a blue sealant in the case bolt replacement process and is easy to spot. I experienced these issues myself on a '02 Boxster I owned.
Do some research about the IMS bearing failures on Boxsters before making decisions on ownership of cars out of warranty. At this point, both the 2008 and 2009 cars are under Porsche's 4 year, 50,000 mile warranty, so you're covered for awhile on both motors, regardless of their faults (if any on the '09+ motors).
Hope this helps,
Jay
08 987
90 911
84 911
IMS bearing failure seems to be a rare, but reoccuring failure in the 2000 to 2005 motors. I don't think it seems to be quite the concern in the 1997 to 1999 Boxsters (however, the '97, '98 and '99 Boxsters have other motor issues). I think many of the 2006 to 2008 cars are too new to comment on whether or not Porsche's increased IMS bearing size has proved an effective solution to the IMS bearing failures that have happened on prior year cars (I have a '08 and I'm hoping they solved this issue!).
Porsche abandoned the intermediate shaft concept for model year 2009 with the new motors in the 911 and Boxster/Cayman series. One counterpoint is that the new 2009 motor is so new that we won't see what major issues this motor develops, if any, for several years yet. The lastest motor design appears to be a design that may tend to prove more reliable than the M96 motors based on the elimination of the IMS and other "back to basics" design incorporations. The M96 motors were designed with a price point in mind to keep the Boxster and later 996 911 more affordable.
If the intermediate shaft bearing fails on an M96 motor, the shaft tends to wobble and the timing chains jump the drive sprocket and ultimately the valve train crashes into the pistons. You can imagine the carnage when this happens. I've read some owners were able to shut their car off when the "rattle of death" happens and salvage the motors. Others have reported that the entire motor is totaled from this failure.
There is an aftermarket IMS bearing replacement from a reputable company. Long term results from the use of this very beefy IMS bearing have yet to be proven IMO, but at first glance it appears to be a robust solution. This particular company seems to have designed a good technique for removing this IMS bearing without damaging the motor. Porsche has no recommended factory fix for the 2000 to 2005 IMS bearings (ask me how I know).
If the aftermarket fixes for the IMS bearing issues prove to be reliable, for under $2000, a 986/987/996/997 owner may be able to make an M96 motor extremely bulletproof. The top end of M96 motors seem to very robust , these motors make nice power for their displacement, have good fuel economy, sound exceptional under load and can go for hundreds of thousands of miles without needing any major service.
IMS bearing housing bolts can also leak and cause the common "nose drip". The nose drip leak can also be caused by a leaking Rear Main Seal (RMS). If the car is ever opened up for a clutch and / or flywheel service, you may wish to replace the Rear Main Seal, Intermediate shaft seal, IMS bearing housing bolts and other case bolts that can leak. The current Porsche case bolt upgrade uses a blue sealant in the case bolt replacement process and is easy to spot. I experienced these issues myself on a '02 Boxster I owned.
Do some research about the IMS bearing failures on Boxsters before making decisions on ownership of cars out of warranty. At this point, both the 2008 and 2009 cars are under Porsche's 4 year, 50,000 mile warranty, so you're covered for awhile on both motors, regardless of their faults (if any on the '09+ motors).
Hope this helps,
Jay
08 987
90 911
84 911
Last edited by Jay H; 11-19-2009 at 10:50 PM.
11-20-2009, 01:47 PM
#7
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I think it all depends on you.
1) Is this purchase a financial stretch for you? If so then the price differences between your choices are important. The best deal is a 2008 base Boxster - you can still find nearly new ones with factory warranty on dealer lots for high $30s. This car will give you almost as much pleasure as an '09 Boxster S at little more than half the price.
2) If money is less of a factor than you have to ask yourself how important acceleration is to you vs handling. The Boxster/Cayman will handle better than the 911 but will accelerate slower. Also the 911 will depreciate less (% wise)
3) Risk aversion - If you are a worry wart than get an '09. The DFI engine will worry you less even if its just as (un)reliable as the non-DFI motor.
4) The '09 motor is probably a little more powerful than the 08 motor. Its difference might be slightly noticeable by the seat of your pants but more likely only with a stop watch. Don't make the performance difference between the '08 and '09 your deciding factor. The performance numbers are more Porsche marketing than anything else.
5) The 911 is a 4 seater. Are the tiny rear seats important to you? If not than consider the extra buffeting that you get in a 4 seat vert vs a 2 seater. Make sure you and your spouse go for an extended top down ride in both the 911 and Boxster before making your decision. You amy find the Boxster to be a much nicer top down experience.
1) Is this purchase a financial stretch for you? If so then the price differences between your choices are important. The best deal is a 2008 base Boxster - you can still find nearly new ones with factory warranty on dealer lots for high $30s. This car will give you almost as much pleasure as an '09 Boxster S at little more than half the price.
2) If money is less of a factor than you have to ask yourself how important acceleration is to you vs handling. The Boxster/Cayman will handle better than the 911 but will accelerate slower. Also the 911 will depreciate less (% wise)
3) Risk aversion - If you are a worry wart than get an '09. The DFI engine will worry you less even if its just as (un)reliable as the non-DFI motor.
4) The '09 motor is probably a little more powerful than the 08 motor. Its difference might be slightly noticeable by the seat of your pants but more likely only with a stop watch. Don't make the performance difference between the '08 and '09 your deciding factor. The performance numbers are more Porsche marketing than anything else.
5) The 911 is a 4 seater. Are the tiny rear seats important to you? If not than consider the extra buffeting that you get in a 4 seat vert vs a 2 seater. Make sure you and your spouse go for an extended top down ride in both the 911 and Boxster before making your decision. You amy find the Boxster to be a much nicer top down experience.
