Is it really IMS failure?? Carnage pics and detail within!
01-16-2009, 02:47 PM
#31
01-20-2009, 12:39 PM
#32
This discussion kind of leaves me with the impression that maybe the change in motor oil is the real ace in the hole. I understand the concerns stated, but frankly, I don't understand why, after saying "I don't use this" you wouldn't be equally willing to say whether or not what you DO use is synthetic or not, or whether it is an appropriate viscosity designation for the area climate based on the manufacturers reccommendation, simple things like that. Those would seem to be relatively benign statements.
Most of us here, I think, would already have Jake Raby right at the top of the list of people to call at the point where we needed to do an engine replace. The people who are going to spend that kind of money prophylactically are probably not the average poster on this board. The "..The best way to get our oil recommendation is to buy the engine from us..." comment in an earlier post, I have to admit, kind of raised my eyebrows when I read it. I really don't think you need to use the oil as a hook to sell engines, your analysis and resolution of the reliability issues should be all that's needed to do that.
Most of us here, I think, would already have Jake Raby right at the top of the list of people to call at the point where we needed to do an engine replace. The people who are going to spend that kind of money prophylactically are probably not the average poster on this board. The "..The best way to get our oil recommendation is to buy the engine from us..." comment in an earlier post, I have to admit, kind of raised my eyebrows when I read it. I really don't think you need to use the oil as a hook to sell engines, your analysis and resolution of the reliability issues should be all that's needed to do that.
01-22-2009, 03:26 AM
#33
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
I am not using any "hook" to sell engines, we don't have to and I'd never do that anyway.
The fact is that Mobil 1 has been burned into the minds of Porsche owners for years. Doing ANYTHING that suggests that this oil isn't the best thing since KY Jelly is the fastest way to create a crap storm of drama thats mostly started by guys that don't even own a tool box, that have bought into the Mobil 1 ad campaign. They have no idea how to assemble an engine, and have never done it- but you can bet they'll call us out and start trouble.
Our developments and oil testing have been primarily done for OUR engines, the engines that use different tolerances, different materials and different assembly procedures than stock Porsche engines. Due to this any recommendation that I make for our engines is ONLY applicable to OUR engines, they are my primary concern, Porsche should have THEIR engines as their primary concerns.
Thats the main reason I am avoiding this question and ANY recommendations on oil at all costs, whats best for my engine can't be applied to an engine that doesn't have my serial numbers stamped onto it.
When I state that the best way to get our oil recommendations is to buy our engine thats exactly what I mean... gathering our data and doing this test work takes hundreds of hours and costs thousands of dollars and the last thing I need is drama or possible legal action from an oil recommendation.
All I am willing to say is we use two oils. One is fully synthetic and the other is semi synthetic and neither are Mobil products.. what you use is up to you but the same guys that are recommending your oil are the same guys that created all the engine issues that have effected thousands of your friends and their failed engines. Remember that.
The fact is that Mobil 1 has been burned into the minds of Porsche owners for years. Doing ANYTHING that suggests that this oil isn't the best thing since KY Jelly is the fastest way to create a crap storm of drama thats mostly started by guys that don't even own a tool box, that have bought into the Mobil 1 ad campaign. They have no idea how to assemble an engine, and have never done it- but you can bet they'll call us out and start trouble.
Our developments and oil testing have been primarily done for OUR engines, the engines that use different tolerances, different materials and different assembly procedures than stock Porsche engines. Due to this any recommendation that I make for our engines is ONLY applicable to OUR engines, they are my primary concern, Porsche should have THEIR engines as their primary concerns.
Thats the main reason I am avoiding this question and ANY recommendations on oil at all costs, whats best for my engine can't be applied to an engine that doesn't have my serial numbers stamped onto it.
When I state that the best way to get our oil recommendations is to buy our engine thats exactly what I mean... gathering our data and doing this test work takes hundreds of hours and costs thousands of dollars and the last thing I need is drama or possible legal action from an oil recommendation.
All I am willing to say is we use two oils. One is fully synthetic and the other is semi synthetic and neither are Mobil products.. what you use is up to you but the same guys that are recommending your oil are the same guys that created all the engine issues that have effected thousands of your friends and their failed engines. Remember that.
01-22-2009, 11:31 AM
#34
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Jake,
Sorry I called you Ray in my post. Old guy syndrome. You still have any future engine order replacement regardless of oil recommendations. I thoroughly understand your position on recommending any thing these days. I love the reference "the fastest way to create a crap storm of drama that's mostly started by guys that don't even own a tool box." I am 57 and have built quite a few engines myself from flat fours to V8s to experimental aircraft. I have thought out and made many design changes in the process. Even having said that I am little more than an assembler. You are at a level most folks have no yard stick to measure or appreciate your accomplishments. Keep up the outstanding work and break through design changes. We all need businesses and great people like you we can trust.
Sorry I called you Ray in my post. Old guy syndrome. You still have any future engine order replacement regardless of oil recommendations. I thoroughly understand your position on recommending any thing these days. I love the reference "the fastest way to create a crap storm of drama that's mostly started by guys that don't even own a tool box." I am 57 and have built quite a few engines myself from flat fours to V8s to experimental aircraft. I have thought out and made many design changes in the process. Even having said that I am little more than an assembler. You are at a level most folks have no yard stick to measure or appreciate your accomplishments. Keep up the outstanding work and break through design changes. We all need businesses and great people like you we can trust.
01-23-2009, 07:47 AM
#35
Rennlist Member
My local engine builder used to swear by Mobil 1, but won't touch the stuff anymore. So there's at least one unrelated builder locally that agrees with Jake.
I switched all my cars away from Mobil 1 as a result.
Jake - keep up the good work on our motors!!
I switched all my cars away from Mobil 1 as a result.
Jake - keep up the good work on our motors!!
01-23-2009, 12:13 PM
#36
Race Director
Switched away from Mobil 1 to what? Why all the secrecy?...
Sincerely,
Macster.
01-23-2009, 08:56 PM
#37
Rennlist Member
Change from Mobil 1
My understanding is Mobil 1 changed their formulation in the recent past leading to some issues. My local builder indicated to me they grenaded a few new engines using Mobil 1's new formulation and were able to trace the issue back to Mobil 1 and won't touch it as a result. My subsequent research indicated others having similar issues.
I won't pretend to be an expert because I am not, but I do listen to those I trust on the issue. For my 2004 Boxster S, I look for an oil at least an API SL, SH, or SJ rating and an HTHS viscosity of at least 4.5. So I run Castrol full synthetic 5w-40 (which is on Porsche's approved list and is easily obtained locally) or Redline 5w-40 (which isn't on Porsche's list and has to be ordered). For my Spec Miata track car I run Brad Penn 10w-30 which I like a lot and I order from LN Engineering.
As for why all the secrecy? I don't want to speak for Jake, but I've read lengthy, lengthy, lengthy discussions on Rennlist and the Pelican forums on the Mobil 1 issue that IIRC Jake participated in. I suspect he, and others that participated heavily in those threads don't want to open that can of worms again. As for me, I don't have the technical background to debate the issue with others so I won't. Basically I can tell you what I use based on information from those who know a lot more than me that I trust....that's about it.
Mike
01-23-2009, 09:42 PM
#38
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
I don't want to speak for Jake, but I've read lengthy, lengthy, lengthy discussions on Rennlist and the Pelican forums on the Mobil 1 issue that IIRC Jake participated in. I suspect he, and others that participated heavily in those threads don't want to open that can of worms again.
You are exactly right.. Those debates found us in debates with those that don't even own a tool box more times than not... The oil debate will never be won, it can't be so there is no reason to even engage in it.
Its not secrecy as far as I am concerned, its more like avoiding BS. Charles and I have expended THOUSANDS of dollars on getting first hand data that will help us select the best oil for my engines and our customers. I believe NO CLAIMS from any oil manufacturer, until I see the data and gather it first hand all their advertising dollars are wasted IMHO.
I live in the world of automotive business everyday and have since the age of 12... I see too many pockets getting filled with under the table funds to use an oil just because it was "recommended".. especially when no one I have asked has an explanation for "why" it is the recommended oil.
Think politics is dirty?? Come live in this world for a little while.
You are exactly right.. Those debates found us in debates with those that don't even own a tool box more times than not... The oil debate will never be won, it can't be so there is no reason to even engage in it.
Its not secrecy as far as I am concerned, its more like avoiding BS. Charles and I have expended THOUSANDS of dollars on getting first hand data that will help us select the best oil for my engines and our customers. I believe NO CLAIMS from any oil manufacturer, until I see the data and gather it first hand all their advertising dollars are wasted IMHO.
I live in the world of automotive business everyday and have since the age of 12... I see too many pockets getting filled with under the table funds to use an oil just because it was "recommended".. especially when no one I have asked has an explanation for "why" it is the recommended oil.
Think politics is dirty?? Come live in this world for a little while.
01-24-2009, 02:44 PM
#39
Race Director
Castrol's a good oil. I used it years ago in my motorcycle engines.
Macster,
My understanding is Mobil 1 changed their formulation in the recent past leading to some issues. My local builder indicated to me they grenaded a few new engines using Mobil 1's new formulation and were able to trace the issue back to Mobil 1 and won't touch it as a result. My subsequent research indicated others having similar issues.
I won't pretend to be an expert because I am not, but I do listen to those I trust on the issue. For my 2004 Boxster S, I look for an oil at least an API SL, SH, or SJ rating and an HTHS viscosity of at least 4.5. So I run Castrol full synthetic 5w-40 (which is on Porsche's approved list and is easily obtained locally) or Redline 5w-40 (which isn't on Porsche's list and has to be ordered). For my Spec Miata track car I run Brad Penn 10w-30 which I like a lot and I order from LN Engineering.
As for why all the secrecy? I don't want to speak for Jake, but I've read lengthy, lengthy, lengthy discussions on Rennlist and the Pelican forums on the Mobil 1 issue that IIRC Jake participated in. I suspect he, and others that participated heavily in those threads don't want to open that can of worms again. As for me, I don't have the technical background to debate the issue with others so I won't. Basically I can tell you what I use based on information from those who know a lot more than me that I trust....that's about it.
Mike
My understanding is Mobil 1 changed their formulation in the recent past leading to some issues. My local builder indicated to me they grenaded a few new engines using Mobil 1's new formulation and were able to trace the issue back to Mobil 1 and won't touch it as a result. My subsequent research indicated others having similar issues.
I won't pretend to be an expert because I am not, but I do listen to those I trust on the issue. For my 2004 Boxster S, I look for an oil at least an API SL, SH, or SJ rating and an HTHS viscosity of at least 4.5. So I run Castrol full synthetic 5w-40 (which is on Porsche's approved list and is easily obtained locally) or Redline 5w-40 (which isn't on Porsche's list and has to be ordered). For my Spec Miata track car I run Brad Penn 10w-30 which I like a lot and I order from LN Engineering.
As for why all the secrecy? I don't want to speak for Jake, but I've read lengthy, lengthy, lengthy discussions on Rennlist and the Pelican forums on the Mobil 1 issue that IIRC Jake participated in. I suspect he, and others that participated heavily in those threads don't want to open that can of worms again. As for me, I don't have the technical background to debate the issue with others so I won't. Basically I can tell you what I use based on information from those who know a lot more than me that I trust....that's about it.
Mike
But I'll still listen. Also, I'll see if oil consumption changes.
Thanks.
Sincerely,
Macster.
01-26-2009, 09:17 AM
#40
How do you give oil a try? Are most wear characteristics even apparent in the sound of the engine? It seems you either go with an oil recommendation or you don't.
I pay attention to someone who has done extensive empirical oil analysis and other mechanical observations. Having said that, after reading this thread I'm still wondering why some of these engines experience catostrophic failure earlier, some later, and some don't. But that's no fault of anyone except the engineers who design them.
Interesting. Thank you for the thread. Keeping my fingers crossed like everyone else.
I pay attention to someone who has done extensive empirical oil analysis and other mechanical observations. Having said that, after reading this thread I'm still wondering why some of these engines experience catostrophic failure earlier, some later, and some don't. But that's no fault of anyone except the engineers who design them.
Interesting. Thank you for the thread. Keeping my fingers crossed like everyone else.
01-26-2009, 11:24 AM
#41
I am not using any "hook" to sell engines, we don't have to and I'd never do that anyway.
The fact is that Mobil 1 has been burned into the minds of Porsche owners for years. Doing ANYTHING that suggests that this oil isn't the best thing since KY Jelly is the fastest way to create a crap storm of drama thats mostly started by guys that don't even own a tool box, that have bought into the Mobil 1 ad campaign. They have no idea how to assemble an engine, and have never done it- but you can bet they'll call us out and start trouble.
Our developments and oil testing have been primarily done for OUR engines, the engines that use different tolerances, different materials and different assembly procedures than stock Porsche engines. Due to this any recommendation that I make for our engines is ONLY applicable to OUR engines, they are my primary concern, Porsche should have THEIR engines as their primary concerns.
Thats the main reason I am avoiding this question and ANY recommendations on oil at all costs, whats best for my engine can't be applied to an engine that doesn't have my serial numbers stamped onto it.
When I state that the best way to get our oil recommendations is to buy our engine thats exactly what I mean... gathering our data and doing this test work takes hundreds of hours and costs thousands of dollars and the last thing I need is drama or possible legal action from an oil recommendation.
All I am willing to say is we use two oils. One is fully synthetic and the other is semi synthetic and neither are Mobil products.. what you use is up to you but the same guys that are recommending your oil are the same guys that created all the engine issues that have effected thousands of your friends and their failed engines. Remember that.
The fact is that Mobil 1 has been burned into the minds of Porsche owners for years. Doing ANYTHING that suggests that this oil isn't the best thing since KY Jelly is the fastest way to create a crap storm of drama thats mostly started by guys that don't even own a tool box, that have bought into the Mobil 1 ad campaign. They have no idea how to assemble an engine, and have never done it- but you can bet they'll call us out and start trouble.
Our developments and oil testing have been primarily done for OUR engines, the engines that use different tolerances, different materials and different assembly procedures than stock Porsche engines. Due to this any recommendation that I make for our engines is ONLY applicable to OUR engines, they are my primary concern, Porsche should have THEIR engines as their primary concerns.
Thats the main reason I am avoiding this question and ANY recommendations on oil at all costs, whats best for my engine can't be applied to an engine that doesn't have my serial numbers stamped onto it.
When I state that the best way to get our oil recommendations is to buy our engine thats exactly what I mean... gathering our data and doing this test work takes hundreds of hours and costs thousands of dollars and the last thing I need is drama or possible legal action from an oil recommendation.
All I am willing to say is we use two oils. One is fully synthetic and the other is semi synthetic and neither are Mobil products.. what you use is up to you but the same guys that are recommending your oil are the same guys that created all the engine issues that have effected thousands of your friends and their failed engines. Remember that.
I can assure you that when, and if, my engine grenades, your product will be right on the top of my list. At the moment however, I'm a bit more concerned with getting the most out of the engine I've already got. If there is a chance that I shouldn't be using a particular product in it, Porsche recommended or not, then I want to get it out of there. When a leading Porsche engine rebuilder comes out and indicates a preference to streer away from a widely accepted product, and inferrs that it may be contributing to failures...I pay attention. But then I also look to that authority for direction on the issue.
I appreciate your explanation. Thanks.
01-27-2009, 09:59 AM
#42
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
No ruffling of feathers....
Great!
We can hep there as well with tuning packages that we have for the stock engines... The way I handle this is different and the site will reflect this in a few days.
And thats exactly why I take these recommendations VERY seriously and tread lightly when discussing this anywhere. Part of being a thorough Developer means defying conventional wisdom or conventional recommendations to excplore a more broad scope... This is how we found the differences, by taking risks.
At the present the engine in your car was built and assembled by Porsche. I can't recommend any deviation from their recommendations without becoming partially libel for what may occur if you deviate from their direction and then experience a failure.
But I can do this when my name and serial number is stamped on the engine... It sucks to have to play these games and if frivelous lawsuits were not a problem I'd not have to play the games that generally are part of being elected to a public office.
I can assure you that when, and if, my engine grenades, your product will be right on the top of my list.
At the moment however, I'm a bit more concerned with getting the most out of the engine I've already got.
When a leading Porsche engine rebuilder comes out and indicates a preference to streer away from a widely accepted product, and inferrs that it may be contributing to failures...I pay attention
. But then I also look to that authority for direction on the issue.
But I can do this when my name and serial number is stamped on the engine... It sucks to have to play these games and if frivelous lawsuits were not a problem I'd not have to play the games that generally are part of being elected to a public office.
01-27-2009, 01:33 PM
#43
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In Jake's defense let me add this. There once was a private air park where folks flew in to each year to show off the planes they built and to renew old acquaintances. Not any more. The liability for just hosting the event in these crazy law suit times brought an end to that. It did not matter what caused the accident. Some how the folks that hosted the event automatically became the focus of the law suit. Sad when people can not just take responsibility for their own stupidity or bad luck. The moment Jake says use miracle oil in your car there will be some one who will sue him for a new engine or possibly blame a crash on the engine failure. I know many are sitting there saying NO WAY. Trust me WAY. If you are young just wait, your faith in people will surely fade. Not to say there are not good folks out there, obviously they are. Jake wants to stay in business and I want him there as well.
01-27-2009, 06:50 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
I'm pretty convinced the M96 platform in stock form is a piece of crap based on my expereinces with them and after seeing Jakes discovery work. RMS issues, failed rod bolts, failed AOS, etc. I'm just waiting for Jake to get all the kinks out of bigger high performance rebuilds. I want either a turbo or a big bore rebuild eventually. My plans were shot by a premature rod bolt failure. Dont think my oil had anything to do with that one! Although I wasnt using Mobile 1. I use Elf Oil http://www.lubadmin.com//Restitution...4&Parametre1=2
Keep up the great work Jake!
Keep up the great work Jake!
01-27-2009, 10:47 PM
#45
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Grant,
Yep yours wasn't oil related.. It was induced by the accounting Department, not the Engineering Department.
As it stands now all the kinks are worked out... Every aspect has been redesigned.. The only OE Porsche parts that we use now are gaskets, seals and oil pumps. Every other aspect is Overkill Engineered.
Yep yours wasn't oil related.. It was induced by the accounting Department, not the Engineering Department.
As it stands now all the kinks are worked out... Every aspect has been redesigned.. The only OE Porsche parts that we use now are gaskets, seals and oil pumps. Every other aspect is Overkill Engineered.