06-08 BS/CS Move from AS to BS
04-26-2016, 10:58 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
06-08 BS/CS Move from AS to BS
Text of the letter I sent to the SEB in favor of the move. I had these two datapoints from personal experience that I thought the SEB might be interested to hear about.
Title: 2006 Cayman S/Boxster S Move from AS to BS
Class: BS
RE: Possible move of 2006-08 Porsche Boxster S & Cayman S to B-Street
Position: I drive a 2000 Corvette FRC in BS. I’m in favor of moving these Porsches down a class to B-street.
Why: I think the Porsches will be good competition for the Corvettes and other cars in the class. I do not think they will be over-dogs.
Two datapoints:
1. 2015 Wilmington Champ Tour, AS Cayman S vs. BS Corvette FRC
In 2015 Berry Langley bought and prepped a 2008 Cayman S for A-street. He drove it in a couple of regional events prior to Wilmington. He had shocks, front bar, aftermarket wheels, an alignment and RE71R tires... in effect the car was fully prepped. Berry did not have a lot of time in it. He took 2nd in AS, about 1s per day behind Eric Simmons in a Corvette. This result caused him to decide the car was uncompetititve in AS and he sold it shortly thereafter.
I took 1st in BS at the same event. There were no significant condition differences between AS and BS run times or groups. My car is fully prepped with high-dollar, reworked shocks, a big front bar from Strano, Z06 Titanium mufflers, aligned to the max and corner balanced with RE71R tires. It weighs ~3070 lbs at race fuel level and I’ve autocrossed it for four of my 6 years in the sport. I raw-timed Berry both days, even when considering the raw time of his coned runs on day 2.
I’ve known and raced against Berry regionally for several years. I estimate that he and I are very similar in autocross speed, though I would give him the edge. Raw-timing him at Wilmington indicates to me that the Cayman S was definitely slower than my Corvette on that big, open, sweeper-intensive concrete course.
2. Trissl Porsche Fest, AS+ Cayman S vs BS Corvette
An autocross was held at the Trissl Porsche festival in Florence, Alabama, two weeks ago. The lot was asphalt with good grip and reasonably smooth. The 50-second course was extremely tight and full of transitions except for one 450 foot straight. My Corvette reached 65 mph on the straight. This course should have favored the narrower, more agile Cayman S, especially given that the 0-60mph times of both cars are effectively identical at ~4.9s (as magazine tested) so the straight gave the Corvette little to no advantage. FTD was taken by a well-driven SMF Civic on Hoosiers.
Jim Bennet from the Nashville area also drove his Cayman S on this course. The car now has lowering/stiffer springs, an engine tune and RE71R tires. So, it is prepared a little in excess of Street class rules. (I don’t know what he has for shocks.) Jim has been doing autocross much longer than I and is a veteran of many trips to Nationals, mostly recently in XP where he was 16 of 23 in 2010 and 17 of 26 in 2011 with Randall Wilcox his co-driver. In Florence, we ran almost exactly the same time... only a few thousandths difference. I consider Jim and I very similar as autocross drivers. That I was able to match Jim in his lowered Cayman S on that course, which was much tighter than any regional or national SCCA course, indicates to me that the Corvette is faster on any more normal, but tight and slow, SCCA course.
Title: 2006 Cayman S/Boxster S Move from AS to BS
Class: BS
RE: Possible move of 2006-08 Porsche Boxster S & Cayman S to B-Street
Position: I drive a 2000 Corvette FRC in BS. I’m in favor of moving these Porsches down a class to B-street.
Why: I think the Porsches will be good competition for the Corvettes and other cars in the class. I do not think they will be over-dogs.
Two datapoints:
1. 2015 Wilmington Champ Tour, AS Cayman S vs. BS Corvette FRC
In 2015 Berry Langley bought and prepped a 2008 Cayman S for A-street. He drove it in a couple of regional events prior to Wilmington. He had shocks, front bar, aftermarket wheels, an alignment and RE71R tires... in effect the car was fully prepped. Berry did not have a lot of time in it. He took 2nd in AS, about 1s per day behind Eric Simmons in a Corvette. This result caused him to decide the car was uncompetititve in AS and he sold it shortly thereafter.
I took 1st in BS at the same event. There were no significant condition differences between AS and BS run times or groups. My car is fully prepped with high-dollar, reworked shocks, a big front bar from Strano, Z06 Titanium mufflers, aligned to the max and corner balanced with RE71R tires. It weighs ~3070 lbs at race fuel level and I’ve autocrossed it for four of my 6 years in the sport. I raw-timed Berry both days, even when considering the raw time of his coned runs on day 2.
I’ve known and raced against Berry regionally for several years. I estimate that he and I are very similar in autocross speed, though I would give him the edge. Raw-timing him at Wilmington indicates to me that the Cayman S was definitely slower than my Corvette on that big, open, sweeper-intensive concrete course.
2. Trissl Porsche Fest, AS+ Cayman S vs BS Corvette
An autocross was held at the Trissl Porsche festival in Florence, Alabama, two weeks ago. The lot was asphalt with good grip and reasonably smooth. The 50-second course was extremely tight and full of transitions except for one 450 foot straight. My Corvette reached 65 mph on the straight. This course should have favored the narrower, more agile Cayman S, especially given that the 0-60mph times of both cars are effectively identical at ~4.9s (as magazine tested) so the straight gave the Corvette little to no advantage. FTD was taken by a well-driven SMF Civic on Hoosiers.
Jim Bennet from the Nashville area also drove his Cayman S on this course. The car now has lowering/stiffer springs, an engine tune and RE71R tires. So, it is prepared a little in excess of Street class rules. (I don’t know what he has for shocks.) Jim has been doing autocross much longer than I and is a veteran of many trips to Nationals, mostly recently in XP where he was 16 of 23 in 2010 and 17 of 26 in 2011 with Randall Wilcox his co-driver. In Florence, we ran almost exactly the same time... only a few thousandths difference. I consider Jim and I very similar as autocross drivers. That I was able to match Jim in his lowered Cayman S on that course, which was much tighter than any regional or national SCCA course, indicates to me that the Corvette is faster on any more normal, but tight and slow, SCCA course.
04-27-2016, 02:34 PM
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Text of the letter I sent to the SEB in favor of the move. I had these two datapoints from personal experience that I thought the SEB might be interested to hear about.
Title: 2006 Cayman S/Boxster S Move from AS to BS
Class: BS
RE: Possible move of 2006-08 Porsche Boxster S & Cayman S to B-Street
Position: I drive a 2000 Corvette FRC in BS. I’m in favor of moving these Porsches down a class to B-street.
Why: I think the Porsches will be good competition for the Corvettes and other cars in the class. I do not think they will be over-dogs.
Two datapoints:
1. 2015 Wilmington Champ Tour, AS Cayman S vs. BS Corvette FRC
In 2015 Berry Langley bought and prepped a 2008 Cayman S for A-street. He drove it in a couple of regional events prior to Wilmington. He had shocks, front bar, aftermarket wheels, an alignment and RE71R tires... in effect the car was fully prepped. Berry did not have a lot of time in it. He took 2nd in AS, about 1s per day behind Eric Simmons in a Corvette. This result caused him to decide the car was uncompetititve in AS and he sold it shortly thereafter.
I took 1st in BS at the same event. There were no significant condition differences between AS and BS run times or groups. My car is fully prepped with high-dollar, reworked shocks, a big front bar from Strano, Z06 Titanium mufflers, aligned to the max and corner balanced with RE71R tires. It weighs ~3070 lbs at race fuel level and I’ve autocrossed it for four of my 6 years in the sport. I raw-timed Berry both days, even when considering the raw time of his coned runs on day 2.
I’ve known and raced against Berry regionally for several years. I estimate that he and I are very similar in autocross speed, though I would give him the edge. Raw-timing him at Wilmington indicates to me that the Cayman S was definitely slower than my Corvette on that big, open, sweeper-intensive concrete course.
2. Trissl Porsche Fest, AS+ Cayman S vs BS Corvette
An autocross was held at the Trissl Porsche festival in Florence, Alabama, two weeks ago. The lot was asphalt with good grip and reasonably smooth. The 50-second course was extremely tight and full of transitions except for one 450 foot straight. My Corvette reached 65 mph on the straight. This course should have favored the narrower, more agile Cayman S, especially given that the 0-60mph times of both cars are effectively identical at ~4.9s (as magazine tested) so the straight gave the Corvette little to no advantage. FTD was taken by a well-driven SMF Civic on Hoosiers.
Jim Bennet from the Nashville area also drove his Cayman S on this course. The car now has lowering/stiffer springs, an engine tune and RE71R tires. So, it is prepared a little in excess of Street class rules. (I don’t know what he has for shocks.) Jim has been doing autocross much longer than I and is a veteran of many trips to Nationals, mostly recently in XP where he was 16 of 23 in 2010 and 17 of 26 in 2011 with Randall Wilcox his co-driver. In Florence, we ran almost exactly the same time... only a few thousandths difference. I consider Jim and I very similar as autocross drivers. That I was able to match Jim in his lowered Cayman S on that course, which was much tighter than any regional or national SCCA course, indicates to me that the Corvette is faster on any more normal, but tight and slow, SCCA course.
Title: 2006 Cayman S/Boxster S Move from AS to BS
Class: BS
RE: Possible move of 2006-08 Porsche Boxster S & Cayman S to B-Street
Position: I drive a 2000 Corvette FRC in BS. I’m in favor of moving these Porsches down a class to B-street.
Why: I think the Porsches will be good competition for the Corvettes and other cars in the class. I do not think they will be over-dogs.
Two datapoints:
1. 2015 Wilmington Champ Tour, AS Cayman S vs. BS Corvette FRC
In 2015 Berry Langley bought and prepped a 2008 Cayman S for A-street. He drove it in a couple of regional events prior to Wilmington. He had shocks, front bar, aftermarket wheels, an alignment and RE71R tires... in effect the car was fully prepped. Berry did not have a lot of time in it. He took 2nd in AS, about 1s per day behind Eric Simmons in a Corvette. This result caused him to decide the car was uncompetititve in AS and he sold it shortly thereafter.
I took 1st in BS at the same event. There were no significant condition differences between AS and BS run times or groups. My car is fully prepped with high-dollar, reworked shocks, a big front bar from Strano, Z06 Titanium mufflers, aligned to the max and corner balanced with RE71R tires. It weighs ~3070 lbs at race fuel level and I’ve autocrossed it for four of my 6 years in the sport. I raw-timed Berry both days, even when considering the raw time of his coned runs on day 2.
I’ve known and raced against Berry regionally for several years. I estimate that he and I are very similar in autocross speed, though I would give him the edge. Raw-timing him at Wilmington indicates to me that the Cayman S was definitely slower than my Corvette on that big, open, sweeper-intensive concrete course.
2. Trissl Porsche Fest, AS+ Cayman S vs BS Corvette
An autocross was held at the Trissl Porsche festival in Florence, Alabama, two weeks ago. The lot was asphalt with good grip and reasonably smooth. The 50-second course was extremely tight and full of transitions except for one 450 foot straight. My Corvette reached 65 mph on the straight. This course should have favored the narrower, more agile Cayman S, especially given that the 0-60mph times of both cars are effectively identical at ~4.9s (as magazine tested) so the straight gave the Corvette little to no advantage. FTD was taken by a well-driven SMF Civic on Hoosiers.
Jim Bennet from the Nashville area also drove his Cayman S on this course. The car now has lowering/stiffer springs, an engine tune and RE71R tires. So, it is prepared a little in excess of Street class rules. (I don’t know what he has for shocks.) Jim has been doing autocross much longer than I and is a veteran of many trips to Nationals, mostly recently in XP where he was 16 of 23 in 2010 and 17 of 26 in 2011 with Randall Wilcox his co-driver. In Florence, we ran almost exactly the same time... only a few thousandths difference. I consider Jim and I very similar as autocross drivers. That I was able to match Jim in his lowered Cayman S on that course, which was much tighter than any regional or national SCCA course, indicates to me that the Corvette is faster on any more normal, but tight and slow, SCCA course.
Also, looking at the times posted by Berry you referenced, they are not really good times when I compare them to some of the drivers that were there and where I know the Cayman could be. As you mentioned, he only did few events in the car before going there and I believe it takes some time getting used to the car and the how it needs to be driven.
C5 Corvette does have some advantages over the Cayman especially when it comes to suspension adjustability, but Cayman is lighter and has the engine in the right place. It would be a pretty bun competition. Although personally I think the problem is not Cayman being classed in AS, it is the C6 and possibly C5 Z06 being classed in AS. Those cars belong in SS. Arguably the C6 Z06 is faster than 997 GT3, which is currently the car to have in SS…
04-27-2016, 09:19 PM
#3
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
I was just looking at the times from last season of a local driver Evan S. who campaigned an FRC C5 last year and who is certainly one of the faster drivers out there.
Although personally I think the problem is not Cayman being classed in AS, it is the C6 and possibly C5 Z06 being classed in AS. Those cars belong in SS. Arguably the C6 Z06 is faster than 997 GT3, which is currently the car to have in SS…
Although personally I think the problem is not Cayman being classed in AS, it is the C6 and possibly C5 Z06 being classed in AS. Those cars belong in SS. Arguably the C6 Z06 is faster than 997 GT3, which is currently the car to have in SS…
I also agree that the Cayman S will be competitive in B-Street. I related the two data-points I know about personally to indicate that I don't think it will be too fast for the class. Lack of front camber and a relatively narrow front tire are big deficits, I think, but somewhat offset by the 46/54 weight split. Even though Berry had so little time in the car, I still think he was driving as fast as me. I've seen him hop into whatever and blow the doors off of every one else in a couple of runs. Not to say that you aren't right, that a better driver or Berry with more experience wouldn't have been faster. But, I'm no national champion. The comparison him to me, car to car, is the point I was trying to make.
As far as SS vs AS vs BS, SS seems reserved as a place for super expensive, super performance cars, newer cars that will outclass the present cars in AS. The quickest way to kill AS would be to move the Corvettes into SS. Then, all the Corvettes get sold because they can't compete with whatever is slightly faster but much more expensive and the SCCA just lost a whole bunch of relatively cheap, great performing cars and drivers. The C6Z06 is no faster than the C5Z06 or C6 Grandsport. I don't think any of them are as fast as a 997GT3, though there is definitely more than a little course dependency there. If I wanted to win AS right now, I'd go with a C5Z06. They handle better (no one seems to really know why, but my theory is "extra" stability engineered into the C6 rear suspension change) and are usefully narrower.
We'll have to see how much of the massive P-car class changes actually go thru.
04-27-2016, 10:53 PM
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As far as SS vs AS vs BS, SS seems reserved as a place for super expensive, super performance cars, newer cars that will outclass the present cars in AS. The quickest way to kill AS would be to move the Corvettes into SS. Then, all the Corvettes get sold because they can't compete with whatever is slightly faster but much more expensive and the SCCA just lost a whole bunch of relatively cheap, great performing cars and drivers. The C6Z06 is no faster than the C5Z06 or C6 Grandsport. I don't think any of them are as fast as a 997GT3, though there is definitely more than a little course dependency there. If I wanted to win AS right now, I'd go with a C5Z06. They handle better (no one seems to really know why, but my theory is "extra" stability engineered into the C6 rear suspension change) and are usefully narrower.
We'll have to see how much of the massive P-car class changes actually go thru.
Btw, as far as tires are concerned for 987 Caymans, this is a good year since Re71rs now have a wider and lower profile 18 inch tire. Car feels great with them on and I've been able to hit the limiter on fast sections as a result. I also have 265 up front on 8.5 wheel and that also feels really good. I did 3 events with this setup so far and I have to say it is working very well. Before I had just old, stock tires and then old Z2s (255/275) that came with the used wheels I bought.
04-28-2016, 12:39 AM
#5
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Hmm... I didn't think about it from this perspective. Makes a lot of sense. In any event, it would be great for me if my car gets moved to BS, especially since 987.2s are being moved to AS, but if it doesn't, more reasons to try to become a better driver
Btw, as far as tires are concerned for 987 Caymans, this is a good year since Re71rs now have a wider and lower profile 18 inch tire. Car feels great with them on and I've been able to hit the limiter on fast sections as a result. I also have 265 up front on 8.5 wheel and that also feels really good. I did 3 events with this setup so far and I have to say it is working very well. Before I had just old, stock tires and then old Z2s (255/275) that came with the used wheels I bought.
Btw, as far as tires are concerned for 987 Caymans, this is a good year since Re71rs now have a wider and lower profile 18 inch tire. Car feels great with them on and I've been able to hit the limiter on fast sections as a result. I also have 265 up front on 8.5 wheel and that also feels really good. I did 3 events with this setup so far and I have to say it is working very well. Before I had just old, stock tires and then old Z2s (255/275) that came with the used wheels I bought.
04-28-2016, 09:30 AM
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But I guess you can't have all cars classed equally. So if Caymans do move down a class, I think they will be very competitive. Which would be great considering that they are in a good price range now and will allow for some great competition.
I guess we will just have to wait and see how it plays out, so thank you for your letter. In the meantime, I will continue to take my beatings in AS hoping fast guys don't show up
04-28-2016, 07:27 PM
#7
Drifting
I also expressed my concern about 986 in ES and recommended it move to DS with the non-TRD twins instead of ES.
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04-29-2016, 01:11 AM
#8
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
I've had a month to mull it over. I reviewed the April Fastrack again and wrote my letter today. No matter where 987s end up, I feel strongly that 987.1 & 987.2 should be together and 987.1S and 987.2S should be together. The cars are just not different enough to warrant separating them into different classes! If the fear is that unicorn options like LSD make the 987.2 too much faster, than the classing should reflect those options specifically and not the entire model of car, 99%+ of which do not have LSD. I recommended 987.2S w/LSD should go to AS as recommended in the last Fastrack but otherwise expressed my agreement with the proposed classing changes with the addition of classing 987.2/987.2S w/o LSD with 987.1/987.1S.
I also expressed my concern about 986 in ES and recommended it move to DS with the non-TRD twins instead of ES.
I also expressed my concern about 986 in ES and recommended it move to DS with the non-TRD twins instead of ES.
We should also remember that the 987.1CS and the standard C5 were head to head in A-Stock (on R-comps) for several years. It was a dogfight... 0.077 seconds between the top C5 and the second place CS one year. (And, IIRC, in no year did they not get trounced by the S2000CR in B-Stock!) I'm sure what the SEB is thinking is, hey, the new tires are closer than ever to R-comps, Strano just reported test data that says the Rival S puts power down better than the A7, why the heck should we keep these natural competitors, already proven to be too close to call, separated by class? All our predecessors did was drive the CSs, which were popular, out of the sport.
986 vs NC/NB Miata vs Toyota Spyder... sounds like a good class to me. I don't think the 986 can hang with the twins, but many seem to feel the way you do.
04-29-2016, 08:57 AM
#9
Any thoughts on the 986S in CS? I (still) really want to build an STU 986S, a season in CS would be a great stepping stone. With the speed of the TRD and the mega speed of the ND I don't think it would upset the balance, right?
Newer cars: A 987.2S, PASM, LSD, XRR car is the one you have to class, regardless of if it exists or not, right? Faster car than an S2000 or C5? What about a with a line exclusion for XRR?
04-29-2016, 12:59 PM
#10
I'm pretty confident that the SAC and SEB will not class different 987 versions separately based solely on options. That would set a precedent for every other marque enthusiast to request per-option classing for their preferred vehicle, which would be a nightmare to maintain.
For the record:
For the record:
Your letter has been reviewed by the Solo Events Board and will soon appear in an upcoming Fastrack. An additional email will follow this email giving you more details.
Here are your letter details:
Letter: #19300
Category: Street
Class: CS
Title: Do not move the 986 Boxster S to CS
Author's Request: Do not move the 986 Boxster S to CS
Hello,
I am writing to oppose moving the 986 Boxster S to CS. I am a marque afficionado who has owned five Porsches, including two 986 Boxster Ss, one of which I campaigned at the national level. I would personally love to run a 986S in CS, but despite this, I feel that the move would be bad for the class.
Porsches in general, and Boxsters in particular, have never been particularly popular in Solo. The base Boxster was classed in A Stock in the late '90s, and Andy McKee won the class at Nationals in one in 2001, but despite that relatively few people ran them before or after Andy's win -- by the mid-2000s they were very rarely seen at the national level, and they were completely gone by the late 2000s.
An argument I've heard is that this time is different -- Boxsters are now so inexpensive that people will be more interested in running them. The accuracy of that statement can't be definitively assessed without moving the Boxster, but there are some clues in recent history. The base Boxster was moved to C Stock a few years before the transition to Street. They were selling in the mid- to low-$1xxxx range at that point, but still to my recollection not a single person attempted a serious national campaign in one despite the car looking very strong in the class. (Andy brought his out for one Tour when his RX-7 suffered a mechanical failure.) Before the Boxster, other inexpensive Porsches (namely the 944S2 and 968) were classed very competitively yet also unpopular. When the 968 was moved to B Stock in the 2005, Ron Bauer dominated in mine (I think he only lost to that year's national champion once all year, unfortunately at Nationals), yet no one else campaigned one nationally again.
People just don't come out to autocross Porsches seriously in any significant numbers. I don't understand this, and would love to bring one out myself, but it's a fact. That being the case, moving an older Porsche into a position where it could potentially dominate a popular class shared with probably the hottest / most popular new sports car currently out there (the ND Miata) seems like a bad move from a participation perspective to me. Please reconsider.
Thanks,
Steve
Here are your letter details:
Letter: #19300
Category: Street
Class: CS
Title: Do not move the 986 Boxster S to CS
Author's Request: Do not move the 986 Boxster S to CS
Hello,
I am writing to oppose moving the 986 Boxster S to CS. I am a marque afficionado who has owned five Porsches, including two 986 Boxster Ss, one of which I campaigned at the national level. I would personally love to run a 986S in CS, but despite this, I feel that the move would be bad for the class.
Porsches in general, and Boxsters in particular, have never been particularly popular in Solo. The base Boxster was classed in A Stock in the late '90s, and Andy McKee won the class at Nationals in one in 2001, but despite that relatively few people ran them before or after Andy's win -- by the mid-2000s they were very rarely seen at the national level, and they were completely gone by the late 2000s.
An argument I've heard is that this time is different -- Boxsters are now so inexpensive that people will be more interested in running them. The accuracy of that statement can't be definitively assessed without moving the Boxster, but there are some clues in recent history. The base Boxster was moved to C Stock a few years before the transition to Street. They were selling in the mid- to low-$1xxxx range at that point, but still to my recollection not a single person attempted a serious national campaign in one despite the car looking very strong in the class. (Andy brought his out for one Tour when his RX-7 suffered a mechanical failure.) Before the Boxster, other inexpensive Porsches (namely the 944S2 and 968) were classed very competitively yet also unpopular. When the 968 was moved to B Stock in the 2005, Ron Bauer dominated in mine (I think he only lost to that year's national champion once all year, unfortunately at Nationals), yet no one else campaigned one nationally again.
People just don't come out to autocross Porsches seriously in any significant numbers. I don't understand this, and would love to bring one out myself, but it's a fact. That being the case, moving an older Porsche into a position where it could potentially dominate a popular class shared with probably the hottest / most popular new sports car currently out there (the ND Miata) seems like a bad move from a participation perspective to me. Please reconsider.
Thanks,
Steve
Your letter has been reviewed by the Solo Events Board and will soon appear in an upcoming Fastrack. An additional email will follow this email giving you more details.
Here are your letter details:
Letter: #19302
Category: Street
Class: ES
Title: Move the 986 Boxster to CS instead of ES
Author's Request: Do not move the 986 Boxster to ES
I just wrote a letter requesting that you not move the Porsche Boxster S to CS. Please consider this letter a big "ditto", except about the base 986 Boxster to ES instead of the 986 Boxster S to CS. All of the same arguments against moving the 986S to CS apply against moving the base 986 to ES, in my opinion.
For several years in the early 2000s, the base Boxster was considered competitive with, if just a hair slower than, the AP1 Honda S2000. It feels way too risky to move it all the way down to ES when the far more popular S2000 is still in BS. If I were in charge, I'd move the base 986 to CS where it would be competitive but likely not an overdog, and leave the 986S where it is in BS.
Thanks,
Steve
Here are your letter details:
Letter: #19302
Category: Street
Class: ES
Title: Move the 986 Boxster to CS instead of ES
Author's Request: Do not move the 986 Boxster to ES
I just wrote a letter requesting that you not move the Porsche Boxster S to CS. Please consider this letter a big "ditto", except about the base 986 Boxster to ES instead of the 986 Boxster S to CS. All of the same arguments against moving the 986S to CS apply against moving the base 986 to ES, in my opinion.
For several years in the early 2000s, the base Boxster was considered competitive with, if just a hair slower than, the AP1 Honda S2000. It feels way too risky to move it all the way down to ES when the far more popular S2000 is still in BS. If I were in charge, I'd move the base 986 to CS where it would be competitive but likely not an overdog, and leave the 986S where it is in BS.
Thanks,
Steve
04-29-2016, 05:53 PM
#11
Drifting
I don't see the 986 going to ES. Not because of performance, but because of perception. ES is unique in that it's the only "cheap" car Street class. People quite simply equate Toyota & Mazda=cheap, Porsche=expensive. Fair or not. The risks for scaring current people out of a healthy class outweigh the benefits of picking up a small handful of 986 drivers chomping at the bit to play.
Any thoughts on the 986S in CS? I (still) really want to build an STU 986S, a season in CS would be a great stepping stone. With the speed of the TRD and the mega speed of the ND I don't think it would upset the balance, right?
Newer cars: A 987.2S, PASM, LSD, XRR car is the one you have to class, regardless of if it exists or not, right? Faster car than an S2000 or C5? What about a with a line exclusion for XRR?
Any thoughts on the 986S in CS? I (still) really want to build an STU 986S, a season in CS would be a great stepping stone. With the speed of the TRD and the mega speed of the ND I don't think it would upset the balance, right?
Newer cars: A 987.2S, PASM, LSD, XRR car is the one you have to class, regardless of if it exists or not, right? Faster car than an S2000 or C5? What about a with a line exclusion for XRR?
I don't think Cayman S is faster than a C5 corvette, even with all the unicorn options. I just don't think LSD is the advantage that some people say it is. I don't have an LSD and I don't have any issues putting power down; LSD would not help me. PASM may be the go-to option, but even a non-PASM car can run MCS shocks and be as fast or maybe faster.
Likewise, I don't think 987 or 986S is going to dominate CS. I think they'll be competitive, which is exactly where they should be. TRD FR-S & ND miata are two very quick cars and the 987 & 986S are less fast than numbers would indicate due to gearing and lack of camber. They have more top-end hp, but that also have a big gearing disadvantage and much lower torque at most autocross speeds. The Porsches may have a gearing advantage on courses where CS cars are topping 60mph, but considering the fastest SS cars aren't supposed to top ~65, that's not going to be as often as the Porsche drivers may want.
04-29-2016, 06:44 PM
#12
Again no. Have you driven an FR-S? They're remarkably slow; the 986S at least is significantly stronger in a straight line, even with its excessively tall gearing.
04-29-2016, 06:59 PM
#13
Drifting
No, because the non-PASM car can't run the lower, stiffer springs that the PASM cars get, and which are probably more important than the shocks.
Again no. Have you driven an FR-S? They're remarkably slow; the 986S at least is significantly stronger in a straight line, even with its excessively tall gearing.
Again no. Have you driven an FR-S? They're remarkably slow; the 986S at least is significantly stronger in a straight line, even with its excessively tall gearing.
And you can run PASM springs w/MCS in a non-PASM car, you just have to install all the non-functioning PASM bits to make it legal. Yeah, it's silly, but if you can afford MCS, you can most likely afford the expensive plastic ballast that goes with it. I figure if I'm going to all that effort, though, I'd just do a complete PASM retrofit.
04-29-2016, 07:51 PM
#14
Ok, I wasn't taking retrofits into account. But now think about the effect on participation if a car with a fairly rare option, and which costs thousands of dollars to retrofit, becomes the car to have. In my opinion, that makes the 987S move to BS a relatively risky one that should only be considered if there's pretty high confidence that the car won't become the car to have. I'm not convinced that confidence is there.
04-29-2016, 08:40 PM
#15
Drifting
There will be course dependency in CS. ND will likely dominate on miata courses, with FRS+TRD not far behind. 986S will lag in the corners and catch up on the straights. But not really any more so than E36 M3, MR2 Turbo, 964 Carrera, Ferrari 328, and 350Z which are already in CS and have not toppled it.
Do you think a 986S or 987 are faster than a 964? (Which is 5" narrower, slightly lighter, has slightly more power, and is a few tenths faster 0-60.)
Do you think a 986S or 987 are faster than a 964? (Which is 5" narrower, slightly lighter, has slightly more power, and is a few tenths faster 0-60.)