Cayman R, suspension advice
08-25-2015, 01:03 AM
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
Cayman R, suspension advice
I am starting to research and plan next years mods for my Cayman R. This year I focused on cooling and braking (BGB PDK cooler, GT3 MC and cooling ducts, Pagid yellows, Mantis 2.3 liter oil sump extension), next year is the year of suspension.
Currently running: OZ Alleggerita HLT 8.5 x 18" and 10 x 18" on stock Cayman R suspension, Bridgestone Potenza RE71Rs, 255/35/18 and 285/35/18.
Intended use cases:
Approximately 6-8 DE's
Competitive hill climbs series that vary from smooth to rough and bumpy
I do not care about comfort so much as I do not DD this car, though I do drive to events.
Plans thus far:
RSS LCA's
GT3 front swaybar
Tarret Cayman R/Spyder 22.1mm rear swaybar
Tarret swaybar links
Hoosiers A7's for hillclimbs, and RE71Rs or similar for DE's.
Might upgrade to wider wheels for the A7's
That is the easy part. Where I am really running into analysis paralysis is in regards to coilovers. I'd love to have JRZ RS's, but I think it is hard to justify the cost at over $6k. I've read-up on Bilstein PSS9's and don't think they match my use case as they seem a bit more street oriented. I've narrowed my search to KW Clubsports or perhaps Sachs Performance Coilover Suspension, which are not so common but appear to be very high quality.
What other options might I consider that are in the $3k - $4k range?
Appreciate the input.
DJM
Currently running: OZ Alleggerita HLT 8.5 x 18" and 10 x 18" on stock Cayman R suspension, Bridgestone Potenza RE71Rs, 255/35/18 and 285/35/18.
Intended use cases:
Approximately 6-8 DE's
Competitive hill climbs series that vary from smooth to rough and bumpy
I do not care about comfort so much as I do not DD this car, though I do drive to events.
Plans thus far:
RSS LCA's
GT3 front swaybar
Tarret Cayman R/Spyder 22.1mm rear swaybar
Tarret swaybar links
Hoosiers A7's for hillclimbs, and RE71Rs or similar for DE's.
Might upgrade to wider wheels for the A7's
That is the easy part. Where I am really running into analysis paralysis is in regards to coilovers. I'd love to have JRZ RS's, but I think it is hard to justify the cost at over $6k. I've read-up on Bilstein PSS9's and don't think they match my use case as they seem a bit more street oriented. I've narrowed my search to KW Clubsports or perhaps Sachs Performance Coilover Suspension, which are not so common but appear to be very high quality.
What other options might I consider that are in the $3k - $4k range?
Appreciate the input.
DJM
Last edited by djm68; 08-25-2015 at 10:44 AM.
08-25-2015, 01:34 PM
#2
I'm far from an expert here, but just a few questions:
What in the factory suspension is lacking for you? Response speed? Ride height? Overall balance? You feel as though you are out driving it? Answering those questions can help point you in the right direction.
As far as coilovers, the whole shebang is pretty simple, three parts:
Springs should be pretty simple. They just push back. And the perches should be of a universal diameter so you can swap to any spring rate you want. Some setups might be a progressive rate spring, but most likely anything serious will be linear rate.
Dampers are where the most of the money goes. Good, well matched valving, consistent action, and effective adjustments aren't cheap. The real badass stuff can make stiff springs ride better than soft springs and shrug off bumps like they're not there, IF they're done right. Big if.
Finally the other stuff. How is the hardware? Is it easy to adjust heights, re corner balance, etc? Are there any damping adjustments? If so, are they "infinite," are there clicks, how much range is there? Single, double, triple, quad adjustable? If so, do you know what each of those adjustments do, and how to use them to tweak the car? How much does it cost and how easy is it to get the shocks rebuilt or revalved?
For example, if you think the PSS9 is too "soft" for your use, just get the firmer springs in the range you want, and send the shocks out to be revalved to your specification. Bilstein US in California can do that for you. That may cost more, may cost less than a JRZ setup, not sure. But it's to your specification, so you can get exactly what you want.
What in the factory suspension is lacking for you? Response speed? Ride height? Overall balance? You feel as though you are out driving it? Answering those questions can help point you in the right direction.
As far as coilovers, the whole shebang is pretty simple, three parts:
- Spring rate
- Damper
- "Other" - hardware, adjustability, rebuild ease and costs, etc.
Springs should be pretty simple. They just push back. And the perches should be of a universal diameter so you can swap to any spring rate you want. Some setups might be a progressive rate spring, but most likely anything serious will be linear rate.
Dampers are where the most of the money goes. Good, well matched valving, consistent action, and effective adjustments aren't cheap. The real badass stuff can make stiff springs ride better than soft springs and shrug off bumps like they're not there, IF they're done right. Big if.
Finally the other stuff. How is the hardware? Is it easy to adjust heights, re corner balance, etc? Are there any damping adjustments? If so, are they "infinite," are there clicks, how much range is there? Single, double, triple, quad adjustable? If so, do you know what each of those adjustments do, and how to use them to tweak the car? How much does it cost and how easy is it to get the shocks rebuilt or revalved?
For example, if you think the PSS9 is too "soft" for your use, just get the firmer springs in the range you want, and send the shocks out to be revalved to your specification. Bilstein US in California can do that for you. That may cost more, may cost less than a JRZ setup, not sure. But it's to your specification, so you can get exactly what you want.
08-25-2015, 02:14 PM
#3
Racer
Thread Starter
Great questions, Burglar.
I find the factory suspension lacking in a number of areas, primarily related (I think) to being too soft.
The nose dives heavily under hard braking, including bottoming and scraping the spoiler under hard braking when hitting irregularities.
The car has more body roll than I care for and I like it to be a little less 'wobbly' and more planted in high-speed, fast transitions.
I drive on a variety of surfaces -- from very rough and bumpy with poor quality tarmac to nearly perfectly smooth, fresh blacktop. With such a variety of surfaces, I do think I'd benefit from higher-end, adjustable suspension. I've driven on the stock setup since I bought the car in 2012, so 4 season of hillclimbs, trackdays and some autox too.
I do understand that I can re-spring and re-valve just about any shock, and I am not opposed to doing that if needed. However, I am hoping to start with something that is close to what I'd like. Removing suspension, sending it out, reinstalling can be costly and time consuming, which is why I am trying to do some research before buying.
I do appreciate your input.
Cheers,
DJM
I find the factory suspension lacking in a number of areas, primarily related (I think) to being too soft.
The nose dives heavily under hard braking, including bottoming and scraping the spoiler under hard braking when hitting irregularities.
The car has more body roll than I care for and I like it to be a little less 'wobbly' and more planted in high-speed, fast transitions.
I drive on a variety of surfaces -- from very rough and bumpy with poor quality tarmac to nearly perfectly smooth, fresh blacktop. With such a variety of surfaces, I do think I'd benefit from higher-end, adjustable suspension. I've driven on the stock setup since I bought the car in 2012, so 4 season of hillclimbs, trackdays and some autox too.
I do understand that I can re-spring and re-valve just about any shock, and I am not opposed to doing that if needed. However, I am hoping to start with something that is close to what I'd like. Removing suspension, sending it out, reinstalling can be costly and time consuming, which is why I am trying to do some research before buying.
I do appreciate your input.
Cheers,
DJM
I'm far from an expert here, but just a few questions:
What in the factory suspension is lacking for you? Response speed? Ride height? Overall balance? You feel as though you are out driving it? Answering those questions can help point you in the right direction.
As far as coilovers, the whole shebang is pretty simple, three parts:
Springs should be pretty simple. They just push back. And the perches should be of a universal diameter so you can swap to any spring rate you want. Some setups might be a progressive rate spring, but most likely anything serious will be linear rate.
Dampers are where the most of the money goes. Good, well matched valving, consistent action, and effective adjustments aren't cheap. The real badass stuff can make stiff springs ride better than soft springs and shrug off bumps like they're not there, IF they're done right. Big if.
Finally the other stuff. How is the hardware? Is it easy to adjust heights, re corner balance, etc? Are there any damping adjustments? If so, are they "infinite," are there clicks, how much range is there? Single, double, triple, quad adjustable? If so, do you know what each of those adjustments do, and how to use them to tweak the car? How much does it cost and how easy is it to get the shocks rebuilt or revalved?
For example, if you think the PSS9 is too "soft" for your use, just get the firmer springs in the range you want, and send the shocks out to be revalved to your specification. Bilstein US in California can do that for you. That may cost more, may cost less than a JRZ setup, not sure. But it's to your specification, so you can get exactly what you want.
What in the factory suspension is lacking for you? Response speed? Ride height? Overall balance? You feel as though you are out driving it? Answering those questions can help point you in the right direction.
As far as coilovers, the whole shebang is pretty simple, three parts:
- Spring rate
- Damper
- "Other" - hardware, adjustability, rebuild ease and costs, etc.
Springs should be pretty simple. They just push back. And the perches should be of a universal diameter so you can swap to any spring rate you want. Some setups might be a progressive rate spring, but most likely anything serious will be linear rate.
Dampers are where the most of the money goes. Good, well matched valving, consistent action, and effective adjustments aren't cheap. The real badass stuff can make stiff springs ride better than soft springs and shrug off bumps like they're not there, IF they're done right. Big if.
Finally the other stuff. How is the hardware? Is it easy to adjust heights, re corner balance, etc? Are there any damping adjustments? If so, are they "infinite," are there clicks, how much range is there? Single, double, triple, quad adjustable? If so, do you know what each of those adjustments do, and how to use them to tweak the car? How much does it cost and how easy is it to get the shocks rebuilt or revalved?
For example, if you think the PSS9 is too "soft" for your use, just get the firmer springs in the range you want, and send the shocks out to be revalved to your specification. Bilstein US in California can do that for you. That may cost more, may cost less than a JRZ setup, not sure. But it's to your specification, so you can get exactly what you want.
08-25-2015, 04:47 PM
#4
I know of a decently fast 986 using KWs so that will not be a bad route. Skip the RSS arms, get your camber via camber plates up front and the rear will adjust at the eccentric. Camber plates will pull the top of the tire in further, allowing you to run much wider wheels and tires. 9-10" wheels up front become easy.
If that saves you enough, look at MCS also, perhaps they have a single adjustable option that could be upgraded later.The $ spent on good dampers pays back every time you turn the wheel!
If that saves you enough, look at MCS also, perhaps they have a single adjustable option that could be upgraded later.The $ spent on good dampers pays back every time you turn the wheel!
08-25-2015, 05:20 PM
#5
Racer
Thread Starter
I know of a decently fast 986 using KWs so that will not be a bad route. Skip the RSS arms, get your camber via camber plates up front and the rear will adjust at the eccentric. Camber plates will pull the top of the tire in further, allowing you to run much wider wheels and tires. 9-10" wheels up front become easy.
If that saves you enough, look at MCS also, perhaps they have a single adjustable option that could be upgraded later.The $ spent on good dampers pays back every time you turn the wheel!
If that saves you enough, look at MCS also, perhaps they have a single adjustable option that could be upgraded later.The $ spent on good dampers pays back every time you turn the wheel!
I've looked at MCS: 3k for singles, $3700 for doubles, $5500 for doubles w/remote. That excludes springs, camber plates, and rear mounting plates. That put's complete package prices around $4k for singles, $4700 for doubles and $6500 for remotes. I've also read that MCS highly recommends remotes for the Cayman due to exhaust proximity causing over heating problems.
DJM
08-25-2015, 06:17 PM
#6
Drifting
When I called MCS last year, they refused to sell me non-remote doubles for the rear because the exhaust is too close and would cook the strut. But there's no reason you couldn't put remotes in the rear and non-remotes in the front.
Due to SCCA rules I can't use coil-overs and ultimately decided I would be better off retrofitting PASM, bought a used set (which fell through) and then promptly ran out of money.
Due to SCCA rules I can't use coil-overs and ultimately decided I would be better off retrofitting PASM, bought a used set (which fell through) and then promptly ran out of money.
08-25-2015, 06:30 PM
#7
Racer
Thread Starter
When I called MCS last year, they refused to sell me non-remote doubles for the rear, but no reason you couldn't put remotes in the rear and non-remotes in the front.
Due to SCCA rules I can't use coil-overs and ultimately decided I would be better off retrofitting PASM, bought a used set (which fell through) and then promptly ran out of money.
Due to SCCA rules I can't use coil-overs and ultimately decided I would be better off retrofitting PASM, bought a used set (which fell through) and then promptly ran out of money.
At the last event, the fastest Z06 Vette, on Hoosier A7's, ran 2:00:437 and I ran a 2:03:468 on RE71Rs. That is on a 2.2 mile course with 900 feet of elevation gain. I think on Hoosiers and with better suspension I should be competitive.
I am currently talking to a shop that has a used set of JRZ RS Pro's, that they will build up with springs of my choice, front camber plates, rear mount, etc for $4500 shipped. Just not sure about spending quite that much as I was hopping to keep the cost under $4000.
DJM
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08-25-2015, 07:44 PM
#9
Racer
Thread Starter
Oooh, ooh, a used JRZ RS Pro setup off a Cayman R popped up for sale on pelican for $2850.
DJM
08-27-2015, 11:50 AM
#10
Racer
Thread Starter
08-27-2015, 11:56 AM
#11
Racer
Thread Starter
I know of a decently fast 986 using KWs so that will not be a bad route. Skip the RSS arms, get your camber via camber plates up front and the rear will adjust at the eccentric. Camber plates will pull the top of the tire in further, allowing you to run much wider wheels and tires. 9-10" wheels up front become easy.
If that saves you enough, look at MCS also, perhaps they have a single adjustable option that could be upgraded later.The $ spent on good dampers pays back every time you turn the wheel!
If that saves you enough, look at MCS also, perhaps they have a single adjustable option that could be upgraded later.The $ spent on good dampers pays back every time you turn the wheel!
I talked to MCS, they only offer doubles with remotes for the Cayman, hence I've decided to go with the (used) JRZ Pros as I am getting a good price on a package deal. Do you run JRZ's or MCS? I am still trying to determine springs rates, I hear 400/600 is a good start with the JRZs.
Understood about the RSS arms. Thoughts on camber plates for the fronts? Tarret? Rennline? Stromki?
I have a Tarret Cayman R 22.1mm rear sway bar that I got for cheap, was thinking to match that to a front GT3 bar + powergrid end links. Thoughts on bars?
Cheers,
DJM
08-27-2015, 07:11 PM
#12
Good deal on the JRZ's. I have an odd mix with moton's spec'd to the JRZ interseries lengths, with AST top plates. For camber plates I like the tarret pieces, excellent quality. GT3/tarret bars are the right ones. Tarret makes the best end links.
With the JRZ's and no daily driving, consider going stiffer on the springs. I have tried 500/600 and it feels too soft. Currently run 750/850, and it works well even on MPSS's. Within that range I think you will be happy. The stagger front to rear of about 100lbs will work within the range of bar adjustments.
With the JRZ's and no daily driving, consider going stiffer on the springs. I have tried 500/600 and it feels too soft. Currently run 750/850, and it works well even on MPSS's. Within that range I think you will be happy. The stagger front to rear of about 100lbs will work within the range of bar adjustments.
08-27-2015, 09:17 PM
#13
Racer
Thread Starter
Good deal on the JRZ's. I have an odd mix with moton's spec'd to the JRZ interseries lengths, with AST top plates. For camber plates I like the tarret pieces, excellent quality. GT3/tarret bars are the right ones. Tarret makes the best end links.
With the JRZ's and no daily driving, consider going stiffer on the springs. I have tried 500/600 and it feels too soft. Currently run 750/850, and it works well even on MPSS's. Within that range I think you will be happy. The stagger front to rear of about 100lbs will work within the range of bar adjustments.
With the JRZ's and no daily driving, consider going stiffer on the springs. I have tried 500/600 and it feels too soft. Currently run 750/850, and it works well even on MPSS's. Within that range I think you will be happy. The stagger front to rear of about 100lbs will work within the range of bar adjustments.
I like the Tarret camber plates as well -- they look to be quite robust and high quality. I read that powergrid end links are 'better' than the Tarrets as they are more durable, lower maintenance.
Thank again for the input -- this is really help.
DJM
08-28-2015, 11:16 AM
#14
Even for a bumpy track, I would use at least 500/600. Much of that is to control dive and squat, the JRZs will soak up bump impacts really well, even with high spring rates. I am still on the valving specs when we started with 500/600. I am close to the end of the rebound adjustment range, so will probably fix that in the off season. For bumpy tracks you can soften the sway bars evenly, that will reduce wheel rate by 20-40 lbs/in with each hole of adjustment.
My tarret front bar/links have been on 3 cars over the last 6 years, the rears on 2 cars and 4 years. Fronts are just getting a bit loose at the heims, so I am satisfied with them.
My tarret front bar/links have been on 3 cars over the last 6 years, the rears on 2 cars and 4 years. Fronts are just getting a bit loose at the heims, so I am satisfied with them.
08-28-2015, 12:12 PM
#15
Racer
Thread Starter
Even for a bumpy track, I would use at least 500/600. Much of that is to control dive and squat, the JRZs will soak up bump impacts really well, even with high spring rates. I am still on the valving specs when we started with 500/600. I am close to the end of the rebound adjustment range, so will probably fix that in the off season. For bumpy tracks you can soften the sway bars evenly, that will reduce wheel rate by 20-40 lbs/in with each hole of adjustment.
My tarret front bar/links have been on 3 cars over the last 6 years, the rears on 2 cars and 4 years. Fronts are just getting a bit loose at the heims, so I am satisfied with them.
My tarret front bar/links have been on 3 cars over the last 6 years, the rears on 2 cars and 4 years. Fronts are just getting a bit loose at the heims, so I am satisfied with them.
Few more questions, if you don't mind:
Do you run 'helper' springs with your setup?
What size/brand wheels are you running?
Cheers,
DJM