Bad experience with dealership, not sure what to think at this point..?
01-12-2017, 02:54 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Bad experience with dealership, not sure what to think at this point..?
Sorry if this is not allowed or not the place for this. I am going through a purchase on a 2007 911 Turbo with a dealership that I will leave anonymous for the time being. I am beginning to have second thoughts on entering into this deal and wanted to know what everyone thinks I should do. I will try to keep this as short as possible, but I know it will be a long post, so I warn you in advance:
-About two weeks ago I came across a 2007 911 Turbo on Ebay. After making a lowball offer way lower than I knew they would accept (NADA value) they replied that the lowest they could go is $4k off their ask price. It was still above where I wanted to be, so I offered them $6k more than my initial offer hoping to meet in the middle, and they countered with the same offer stating they couldn't take any less, but if I wanted the car with stock wheels (it currently has aftermarket wheels) they could come down another $2000.
-I emailed back and told them I would be inclined to do that offer if they could track down some service records for me so I could verify all services are up to date. The gentleman replied back saying the "owner is out of town" but as soon as he returns he will get with him about service records. I assumed he meant the owner of the dealership.
-I called them a day or two later, and the owner of the dealership answered the phone. He introduced himself as the owner and I began asking a ton of questions, mostly about the vehicle, the salesman's offer on the car without the wheels, and service records. The owner of the dealership then stated that he has been trying to get ahold of the "owner" to get the service records but he is out of town. Wait a minute, a red flag went up, and I specifically asked if the car was on consignment, or if it was dealer owned. He said it was dealer owned, and he "meant the previous owner". He then went on to tell me that the car has had brand new water pump, belts, oil and filter, spark plugs, coils and some other maintenance items all within the last 100 miles, but needs a new clutch as it is starting to slip and "they" were discussing replacing the clutch for the buyer so that he can have a trouble free vehicle. Not once was any mention of paying for a new clutch made, and I made it very clear that the price we agreed on via Ebay messenger without the wheels was my absolute max dollar amount and I had no room to budge. We essentially verbally agreed on that price with stock wheels, and he said he would get the ball rolling on ordering a new clutch. I asked him if he would hold the car for me for a couple days so I could think about it.
-A day or so later, I emailed back via Ebay and told the gentleman I was originally talking to that I wanted to do the deal at the agreed upon price, and he replied stating that he talked to the owner and they agreed the least they could do is $1500 more WITH a new clutch, or the price we agreed on with the OEM clutch. I was pretty upset at this point, so I sent them a very strongly worded email, and again got a reply saying that they couldn't negotiate on this because the car is on consignment and the seller makes the prices, not them. Hmm...
-So I called again, and told him that the owner told me very specifically the car wasn't on consignment, and that I was very apparently lied to and that they were going about business the wrong way. It was explained to me that the car is being traded into the dealership by the seller, and he is buying a new car they are sourcing for him, so it is essentially a trade in, and though they technically own the vehicle, the seller makes all the shots where price is concerned. We got off the phone with the understanding that I wasn't doing the deal any longer.
-I gave it some thought for a day or so, weighed my options with other available 911 Turbo's in my price range, and after thinking about it, I called back a day or so later asking if they would come down $500 and meet me in the middle. The owner of the dealership said that the owner probably wouldn't and is basically splitting the cost of the clutch with me ($3000) and wouldn't budge any further. I told him I would have to be moving on and that if the owner changed his mind to let me know. Before I got off the phone, the owner said that if I decide to move on with the dealer, they were giving me the option of either an OEM clutch, or a Sach's clutch, and that I should do some research on the differences and what would be the better option.
-After another day, I called them back and made them an offer. I give a deposit, and they hold the vehicle for me until the middle of February and I will pay them the remainder of their asking price with clutch install and pick the car up then. They agreed, pending a $1000 nonrefundable deposit, $5000 when I get in town in a couple weeks to view the car in person, and the remainder by the 30th of February. He also stated as soon as he gets the $1000 he will take the ad's down and turn buyers away. I agreed, and the owner said he would send me a bill of sale outlining these conditions. I PayPaled the $1000.00 and waited a couple days, but got no bill of sale.
-I called the owner and asked him what he meant the other day when he said I should research the two clutches before deciding which one to go with. He said he would send me a couple links with some information. After a day of waiting, I got a link, which was simply a link to AWEPerformance with the sach's kit's and prices listed. Nothing at all about whether to go with OEM vs. Sach's like he said he would send me. I wrote these guys off as unreliable at best, did my own research at that point and emailed back telling the owner I would do the Sach's kit. He said he would order it and unless it was on backorder he would have it in the car by the time I come at the end of the month.
-A couple days later I called back after noticing the ads were all still up and I had no bill of sale and spoke to the original guy (owner wasn't in). He said that the owner likely won't take the ads down until it's a done deal, and is keeping the ads up just in case I back out. I asked him for a bill of sale and a copy of the title so I could arrange shipping for the vehicle. A couple hours later he sent me a bill of sale which stated nothing about the clutch replacement. I emailed back asking if I could have them ad this information in that I am owed a clutch replacement, and asked where the title was.
-Today, I still had no updated bill of sale or title, so I am getting pretty pissed at this point. I pulled a Carfax and saw that there was a new title issued with a lien holder about 2000 miles ago. So I called the dealership and spoke to the original Ebay guy and asked him what the deal was with the title. I asked if they have the title, if there is a lien holder, or if the owner of the car has the title. He got a little flustered and told me to tell him what I was getting at because he's not following me with all the questions. I stated that I had concerns if there is a lien on the vehicle or if they even have the title, because if that is the case I cannot ship the car back when I fly in to pay and pick it up and I do not want to get in a position where I have a car I bought, need to catch a flight back and they won't let me drop it off at the port because I don't have the title with no lien holder. He told me that he will be "completely honest with me" and that "Chris (the owner) is working on getting the title from the owner of the car, and if there was a lien he wouldn't have the title because the bank would have it". He said that as soon as Chris get's in (I was on speaker so I suspect he was there) that he would have him get the title and send it right over to me within an hour and to stay by my email. That was 30 minutes ago. Still nothing, but I wait patiently.
Another thing that irks me, is I have never seen any service records like I was promised, and I asked for some more pictures of the car, but haven't gotten anything. They are polite over the phone, were friendly and accomodating at first (before they got my $1000) but now seem very short with me, they try to rush me off the phone when I call and it seems like nothing but excuses and lies. At this point, I am considering doing a charge back on my debit card and/or filing a PayPal dispute and moving on to another car. I want this deal to work, but something seems very fishy about this place. They have mostly good reviews (one or two bad ones) and sell mostly high end cars. Not once have they been rude to me, but the whole deal seems like I would better off getting my deposit back.
-About two weeks ago I came across a 2007 911 Turbo on Ebay. After making a lowball offer way lower than I knew they would accept (NADA value) they replied that the lowest they could go is $4k off their ask price. It was still above where I wanted to be, so I offered them $6k more than my initial offer hoping to meet in the middle, and they countered with the same offer stating they couldn't take any less, but if I wanted the car with stock wheels (it currently has aftermarket wheels) they could come down another $2000.
-I emailed back and told them I would be inclined to do that offer if they could track down some service records for me so I could verify all services are up to date. The gentleman replied back saying the "owner is out of town" but as soon as he returns he will get with him about service records. I assumed he meant the owner of the dealership.
-I called them a day or two later, and the owner of the dealership answered the phone. He introduced himself as the owner and I began asking a ton of questions, mostly about the vehicle, the salesman's offer on the car without the wheels, and service records. The owner of the dealership then stated that he has been trying to get ahold of the "owner" to get the service records but he is out of town. Wait a minute, a red flag went up, and I specifically asked if the car was on consignment, or if it was dealer owned. He said it was dealer owned, and he "meant the previous owner". He then went on to tell me that the car has had brand new water pump, belts, oil and filter, spark plugs, coils and some other maintenance items all within the last 100 miles, but needs a new clutch as it is starting to slip and "they" were discussing replacing the clutch for the buyer so that he can have a trouble free vehicle. Not once was any mention of paying for a new clutch made, and I made it very clear that the price we agreed on via Ebay messenger without the wheels was my absolute max dollar amount and I had no room to budge. We essentially verbally agreed on that price with stock wheels, and he said he would get the ball rolling on ordering a new clutch. I asked him if he would hold the car for me for a couple days so I could think about it.
-A day or so later, I emailed back via Ebay and told the gentleman I was originally talking to that I wanted to do the deal at the agreed upon price, and he replied stating that he talked to the owner and they agreed the least they could do is $1500 more WITH a new clutch, or the price we agreed on with the OEM clutch. I was pretty upset at this point, so I sent them a very strongly worded email, and again got a reply saying that they couldn't negotiate on this because the car is on consignment and the seller makes the prices, not them. Hmm...
-So I called again, and told him that the owner told me very specifically the car wasn't on consignment, and that I was very apparently lied to and that they were going about business the wrong way. It was explained to me that the car is being traded into the dealership by the seller, and he is buying a new car they are sourcing for him, so it is essentially a trade in, and though they technically own the vehicle, the seller makes all the shots where price is concerned. We got off the phone with the understanding that I wasn't doing the deal any longer.
-I gave it some thought for a day or so, weighed my options with other available 911 Turbo's in my price range, and after thinking about it, I called back a day or so later asking if they would come down $500 and meet me in the middle. The owner of the dealership said that the owner probably wouldn't and is basically splitting the cost of the clutch with me ($3000) and wouldn't budge any further. I told him I would have to be moving on and that if the owner changed his mind to let me know. Before I got off the phone, the owner said that if I decide to move on with the dealer, they were giving me the option of either an OEM clutch, or a Sach's clutch, and that I should do some research on the differences and what would be the better option.
-After another day, I called them back and made them an offer. I give a deposit, and they hold the vehicle for me until the middle of February and I will pay them the remainder of their asking price with clutch install and pick the car up then. They agreed, pending a $1000 nonrefundable deposit, $5000 when I get in town in a couple weeks to view the car in person, and the remainder by the 30th of February. He also stated as soon as he gets the $1000 he will take the ad's down and turn buyers away. I agreed, and the owner said he would send me a bill of sale outlining these conditions. I PayPaled the $1000.00 and waited a couple days, but got no bill of sale.
-I called the owner and asked him what he meant the other day when he said I should research the two clutches before deciding which one to go with. He said he would send me a couple links with some information. After a day of waiting, I got a link, which was simply a link to AWEPerformance with the sach's kit's and prices listed. Nothing at all about whether to go with OEM vs. Sach's like he said he would send me. I wrote these guys off as unreliable at best, did my own research at that point and emailed back telling the owner I would do the Sach's kit. He said he would order it and unless it was on backorder he would have it in the car by the time I come at the end of the month.
-A couple days later I called back after noticing the ads were all still up and I had no bill of sale and spoke to the original guy (owner wasn't in). He said that the owner likely won't take the ads down until it's a done deal, and is keeping the ads up just in case I back out. I asked him for a bill of sale and a copy of the title so I could arrange shipping for the vehicle. A couple hours later he sent me a bill of sale which stated nothing about the clutch replacement. I emailed back asking if I could have them ad this information in that I am owed a clutch replacement, and asked where the title was.
-Today, I still had no updated bill of sale or title, so I am getting pretty pissed at this point. I pulled a Carfax and saw that there was a new title issued with a lien holder about 2000 miles ago. So I called the dealership and spoke to the original Ebay guy and asked him what the deal was with the title. I asked if they have the title, if there is a lien holder, or if the owner of the car has the title. He got a little flustered and told me to tell him what I was getting at because he's not following me with all the questions. I stated that I had concerns if there is a lien on the vehicle or if they even have the title, because if that is the case I cannot ship the car back when I fly in to pay and pick it up and I do not want to get in a position where I have a car I bought, need to catch a flight back and they won't let me drop it off at the port because I don't have the title with no lien holder. He told me that he will be "completely honest with me" and that "Chris (the owner) is working on getting the title from the owner of the car, and if there was a lien he wouldn't have the title because the bank would have it". He said that as soon as Chris get's in (I was on speaker so I suspect he was there) that he would have him get the title and send it right over to me within an hour and to stay by my email. That was 30 minutes ago. Still nothing, but I wait patiently.
Another thing that irks me, is I have never seen any service records like I was promised, and I asked for some more pictures of the car, but haven't gotten anything. They are polite over the phone, were friendly and accomodating at first (before they got my $1000) but now seem very short with me, they try to rush me off the phone when I call and it seems like nothing but excuses and lies. At this point, I am considering doing a charge back on my debit card and/or filing a PayPal dispute and moving on to another car. I want this deal to work, but something seems very fishy about this place. They have mostly good reviews (one or two bad ones) and sell mostly high end cars. Not once have they been rude to me, but the whole deal seems like I would better off getting my deposit back.
01-12-2017, 03:03 PM
#2
This is a lot to read. If you have not have not bought the car or have no deposit to lose, then move on and keep looking. You are dealing with a dealership. Keep your expectations really low.
Good luck,
Eddie
Good luck,
Eddie
Last edited by eddielasvegas; 01-12-2017 at 03:21 PM.
01-12-2017, 03:13 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Sorry there was no way to keep it short, but I tried. I did give a $1000 deposit via PayPal, but haven't signed any bill of sale and our entire deal has been verbal or email agreements.
01-12-2017, 03:39 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
Get the deposit back. Hunt around here and find a better car.
01-12-2017, 06:42 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
buy the buyer.
there are quite a few 997.1 TT's for sale. like almost everything in life, you are better spending a little extra money up front on a known quality item vs trying to get a "deal" that fits some number you have determined. if you are trying to fit to a certain price and it's not working, just wait. you will be better off in the long term.
there are quite a few 997.1 TT's for sale. like almost everything in life, you are better spending a little extra money up front on a known quality item vs trying to get a "deal" that fits some number you have determined. if you are trying to fit to a certain price and it's not working, just wait. you will be better off in the long term.
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01-12-2017, 08:06 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
OMG, my head is hurting and yes, I read everything you and everyone else wrote. Yes, get your money back and move the he** on. These guys are not worth it! Too many hassles and nothing has even really happened yet.
My head still hurts... about to take an extra strength Excedrin. Live and learn... it could have been a lot worse.
My head still hurts... about to take an extra strength Excedrin. Live and learn... it could have been a lot worse.
01-12-2017, 09:02 PM
#10
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I would definitely move on. Buying a car has a lot to do with your 'gut' feeling. Getting the run around before you even buy it means you'll be unhappy after you buy it.
Who would put the clutch in? You think they will pay to have it done right? What if they didn't do it all?
Title issues are also a scary mess. As stated, get a refund, or file dispute with PayPal. The 'non refundable' is if YOU don't hold up your end, not the other way around.
Who would put the clutch in? You think they will pay to have it done right? What if they didn't do it all?
Title issues are also a scary mess. As stated, get a refund, or file dispute with PayPal. The 'non refundable' is if YOU don't hold up your end, not the other way around.
01-12-2017, 09:56 PM
#11
Burning Brakes
Damn. It's like going after a girl that's not interested. After all the frustrations and wasted expenses, In the end, you will end up asking yourself, WTF am I doing? I'm wasting my time. I should move on with a girl that's interested.
01-13-2017, 06:11 AM
#12
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Correct, no paperwork, just a PayPal invoice. I have a bill of sale that they sent me, but I didn't sign it and requested that they add the clutch repair to it as a "we owe" just to ensure it is completed and they are held legally accountable for it. I never got an updated bill of sale back so I didn't sign the one they sent.
Nope, buying sight unseen. It looks like a beautiful example of a 911 Turbo in the pictures, and the dealer seems friendly and trustworthy over the phone, but there are so many red flags at this point I am ready to walk away and move on.
I would definitely move on. Buying a car has a lot to do with your 'gut' feeling. Getting the run around before you even buy it means you'll be unhappy after you buy it.
Who would put the clutch in? You think they will pay to have it done right? What if they didn't do it all?
Title issues are also a scary mess. As stated, get a refund, or file dispute with PayPal. The 'non refundable' is if YOU don't hold up your end, not the other way around.
Who would put the clutch in? You think they will pay to have it done right? What if they didn't do it all?
Title issues are also a scary mess. As stated, get a refund, or file dispute with PayPal. The 'non refundable' is if YOU don't hold up your end, not the other way around.
01-13-2017, 09:00 AM
#13
Rennlist Member
Nope, buying sight unseen. It looks like a beautiful example of a 911 Turbo in the pictures, and the dealer seems friendly and trustworthy over the phone, but there are so many red flags at this point I am ready to walk away and move on.
I have definitely done everything in my power to hold up my end of the bargain.
I have definitely done everything in my power to hold up my end of the bargain.
Other than a face-to-face visit, I'd say you've done enough - move on.
01-13-2017, 09:38 AM
#14
Almost pulled the trigger on an 07 back in 2012. Similar situation at a dealer but I walked long before it got to that point( I even PPI ed it). Really wanted the car but of course no service records, paint work that I descovered,etc. There's good dealers out there but I'd try and buy from a private owner. It worked out better for me.
01-13-2017, 09:42 AM
#15
Rennlist Member
i read your post. You lost me at the "30th of February."
All kinds of red flags and you are still trying to be in the game. The worst possible scenario for you as a buyer is to get emotionally attached to the deal.
Also, I wonder what kind of dealership this is. I ordered a boxter S with 40% more goodies that would have been pretty hard for them to sell, from my sh!tty little local dealership back a few years ago, and all I had to give them was a REFUNDABLE $1500 deposit. Non-refundable is bullsh!t. Maybe that's the way it's done these days, but my guess is that there are sellers out there that don't operate that way.
There are always other cars, and always better prices. If something doesn't feel right, move on. My guess is you will live longer that way. (just my opinions, of course)
All kinds of red flags and you are still trying to be in the game. The worst possible scenario for you as a buyer is to get emotionally attached to the deal.
Also, I wonder what kind of dealership this is. I ordered a boxter S with 40% more goodies that would have been pretty hard for them to sell, from my sh!tty little local dealership back a few years ago, and all I had to give them was a REFUNDABLE $1500 deposit. Non-refundable is bullsh!t. Maybe that's the way it's done these days, but my guess is that there are sellers out there that don't operate that way.
There are always other cars, and always better prices. If something doesn't feel right, move on. My guess is you will live longer that way. (just my opinions, of course)