997.2 Turbo manual future values
10-14-2016, 01:08 AM
#19
Rocky Mountain High
Rennlist Member
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10-14-2016, 02:16 AM
#20
I think 997.2 is the one to have, especially so in stock form:
- better engine. Mezger might have the heritage and is built to withstand 10x the abuse, but in stock form, I don't see why you would pick a less efficient, less powerful, laggier version. Anecdotally, from what I've seen around the forums, there seem to be more engine issues with Mezgers than DFIs
- Last of a kind. 997.2 is the last turbo with MT.
- Much, much rarer. Probably mostly due to the US financial ****ups, 997.2s are just much rarer than the .1s
- better suspension setup. No need for aftermarket. 997.1s are sloppier and most people I know of wouldn't touch the car unless it has Bilsteins on.
- Updated electronics & interior. Yes, the 09 has them too, but you don't get the rest of the package
Now, i may be biased a bit...
- better engine. Mezger might have the heritage and is built to withstand 10x the abuse, but in stock form, I don't see why you would pick a less efficient, less powerful, laggier version. Anecdotally, from what I've seen around the forums, there seem to be more engine issues with Mezgers than DFIs
- Last of a kind. 997.2 is the last turbo with MT.
- Much, much rarer. Probably mostly due to the US financial ****ups, 997.2s are just much rarer than the .1s
- better suspension setup. No need for aftermarket. 997.1s are sloppier and most people I know of wouldn't touch the car unless it has Bilsteins on.
- Updated electronics & interior. Yes, the 09 has them too, but you don't get the rest of the package
Now, i may be biased a bit...
10-14-2016, 02:57 AM
#21
Drifting
I also believe the prices will increase on the .1 TT.
No other reason than the history of the engine and it's bullet proof reliability.
I thrashed my 993TT a lot and it just took everything I threw at it, until it bit back one day and put me into a wall. Funny feeling becoming just a passenger when they decide to go!
So this amazing 997.1 gives me the security of knowing that if it doe's give, it'll be because I deserved it.
At the end of the day like someone else said, what a first world problem to have huh.
No other reason than the history of the engine and it's bullet proof reliability.
I thrashed my 993TT a lot and it just took everything I threw at it, until it bit back one day and put me into a wall. Funny feeling becoming just a passenger when they decide to go!
So this amazing 997.1 gives me the security of knowing that if it doe's give, it'll be because I deserved it.
At the end of the day like someone else said, what a first world problem to have huh.
10-14-2016, 08:14 AM
#22
Kind of like fine watches, the more movements, finer the watch. Mezger lots of movements, DFI less movements. Internal parts are less in the DFI. Mezger more complicated and a bit more sophisticated. Some may view as an evolution with regards to the DFI. More modern, efficient less complicated. What do I know I still prefer vacuum tubes over transistors. I also prefer 45 year olds over 27 year olds.
10-14-2016, 09:36 AM
#23
Racer
Kind of like fine watches, the more movements, finer the watch. Mezger lots of movements, DFI less movements. Internal parts are less in the DFI. Mezger more complicated and a bit more sophisticated. Some may view as an evolution with regards to the DFI. More modern, efficient less complicated. What do I know I still prefer vacuum tubes over transistors. I also prefer 45 year olds over 27 year olds.
+1 except for the 27 year olds
10-15-2016, 08:28 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
It's a subjective argument I suppose. There's absolutely too few data points I believe on the manual 997.2 TT vs the 997.1 TT to compare -- but if you compare overall 997.1 Turbo to 997.2 Turbo (including all transmission options), for now anyway, the 997.1 Turbo's sell faster because of price IMO.
I'm not a die hard P car enthusiast (just a car guy in general), but my 997.2 TTS was still quiet even with a full race exhaust without any cats. The 997.1 TT absolutely screams. I think that sums up why I would buy a 997.1 TT over a 997.2 TT, if both were 6 speed. There is literally nothing else that the 997.2 offers in value (to me!) over the 997.1. For a weekend driver, the engine note and feeling is the most important. Then again, I'm the kind of guy to solid mount everything in a car, so perhaps there's some merit to people saying the 997.2 offers a much improved suspension over the 997.1
Personally I feel that the 997.1 and 997.2 are about equal there, and that both could use serious improvement from what's offered from the factory for a weekend driver. Thus, they're both equal in my eyes.
I agree with you re: GT3, btw. Then again, I don't really see any of the non-GT cars appreciating anyway. I think they'll continue to depreciate a lot less quickly assuming mileage is held constant as the years pass -- but I just think the demand will be higher for 997.1 due to engine, but not because of heritage.
I think it's fair to end it saying that regardless of what we buy, I think both cars with a 6 speed will do OK in value. I just wouldn't anticipate it to appreciate from where you bought it, is all.
I'm not a die hard P car enthusiast (just a car guy in general), but my 997.2 TTS was still quiet even with a full race exhaust without any cats. The 997.1 TT absolutely screams. I think that sums up why I would buy a 997.1 TT over a 997.2 TT, if both were 6 speed. There is literally nothing else that the 997.2 offers in value (to me!) over the 997.1. For a weekend driver, the engine note and feeling is the most important. Then again, I'm the kind of guy to solid mount everything in a car, so perhaps there's some merit to people saying the 997.2 offers a much improved suspension over the 997.1
Personally I feel that the 997.1 and 997.2 are about equal there, and that both could use serious improvement from what's offered from the factory for a weekend driver. Thus, they're both equal in my eyes.I agree with you re: GT3, btw. Then again, I don't really see any of the non-GT cars appreciating anyway. I think they'll continue to depreciate a lot less quickly assuming mileage is held constant as the years pass -- but I just think the demand will be higher for 997.1 due to engine, but not because of heritage.
I think it's fair to end it saying that regardless of what we buy, I think both cars with a 6 speed will do OK in value. I just wouldn't anticipate it to appreciate from where you bought it, is all.
Agreed on most of your points. I own a 997.2 GT3 RS with steel monoball everything and a full RSS Tarmac Series conversion, with straight pipe exhaust. I basically wanted the most raw 911 I could drive and I love it.
What I would have to say after having driven 3 997.1 Turbo manuals, and 1 997.2 Turbo is that my findings are opposite minus the exhaust note that you mention.
There is quite a bit less turbo lag in the 997.2 which is greatly appreciated because it's rather delayed in the .1 and I was surprised to see this level of lag. The manual in the 997.2 is much better to operate as well as it's an Asin unit compared to the Getrag in the 997.1. The clutch is much lighter in the 997.2 and thus much easier in traffic and more enjoyable. Now in my RS, the clutch is super heavy but it's amazing when going all out. Lastly, the suspension in the 997.2 is considerable tauter. I hate to say this, but the 997.1 suspension feels a touch sloppy and floaty whereas the 997.2 is pinned down and so much more agile. There was a very big change here in my opinion. IMO it is significantly underestimated reading these forums. Suspension truly is night and day. 997.1 owners need to get into a 997.2 to see what I mean.
I recall reading articles with Porsche execs being annoyed the GT-R was on the Nurburgring with the 997.1 Turbo when it was in development and they really improved the 997.2 suspension to make it more sport oriented. Also, you can feel the torque vectoring really work on tight corners when you really get into the throttle. You actually do feel power coming from the rear right or rear left. You can actually tell that it's there.
These were my findings.
Last edited by bigmacsmallfries; 10-18-2016 at 12:12 AM.
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E30toF30 (12-07-2019)
10-15-2016, 08:33 PM
#26
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Thread Starter
Mezger block has stand the test of time. The tuning crowd has done and is doing more with this block than the 9A1 block.
Just look at the comparison between the Mezger and 9A1 GT3 prices plus user experiences so far. 9A1 block is still experiencing teething problems with engine replacements and newer model years' redline dialed down. It may eventually get there but probably not with the current generation design.
Low production numbers help valuation of these cars but it is not a driving factor.
Just look at the comparison between the Mezger and 9A1 GT3 prices plus user experiences so far. 9A1 block is still experiencing teething problems with engine replacements and newer model years' redline dialed down. It may eventually get there but probably not with the current generation design.
Low production numbers help valuation of these cars but it is not a driving factor.
Quite the contrary, the production numbers is the most important factor in predicting price appreciation.
EDIT: Memory did not serve me well on this example. :/
Last edited by bigmacsmallfries; 10-16-2016 at 01:12 PM.
10-15-2016, 08:37 PM
#27
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Thread Starter
Worldwide production for 997.1 6MT coupes is ~5500 and the 993TT is ~6000.
For or me the Mezger engine was a must when shopping for for my 997TT. Tried both the 997.1 & 997.2 and there was something about the character of the Mezger I liked much better. I also like its race history...
The only thing I found better on the 997.2 was the suspension/handling and the LED lights if that's your thing but for some reason I prefer the "older style" lights.
Something I've noticed with the Porsche crowd in my area is that most who had bought a 997.2TT have already moved on to the 991.1TT and some are already trading for a 991.2. Most with a Mezger Turbo (one being a 996) will not sell...again, just my observation.
At the end of the day nobody has a crystal ball for future values and we should all be thankful we are in a position to have such a first world problem.
For or me the Mezger engine was a must when shopping for for my 997TT. Tried both the 997.1 & 997.2 and there was something about the character of the Mezger I liked much better. I also like its race history...
The only thing I found better on the 997.2 was the suspension/handling and the LED lights if that's your thing but for some reason I prefer the "older style" lights.
Something I've noticed with the Porsche crowd in my area is that most who had bought a 997.2TT have already moved on to the 991.1TT and some are already trading for a 991.2. Most with a Mezger Turbo (one being a 996) will not sell...again, just my observation.
At the end of the day nobody has a crystal ball for future values and we should all be thankful we are in a position to have such a first world problem.
10-15-2016, 08:39 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I think 997.2 is the one to have, especially so in stock form:
- better engine. Mezger might have the heritage and is built to withstand 10x the abuse, but in stock form, I don't see why you would pick a less efficient, less powerful, laggier version. Anecdotally, from what I've seen around the forums, there seem to be more engine issues with Mezgers than DFIs
- Last of a kind. 997.2 is the last turbo with MT.
- Much, much rarer. Probably mostly due to the US financial ****ups, 997.2s are just much rarer than the .1s
- better suspension setup. No need for aftermarket. 997.1s are sloppier and most people I know of wouldn't touch the car unless it has Bilsteins on.
- Updated electronics & interior. Yes, the 09 has them too, but you don't get the rest of the package
Now, i may be biased a bit...
- better engine. Mezger might have the heritage and is built to withstand 10x the abuse, but in stock form, I don't see why you would pick a less efficient, less powerful, laggier version. Anecdotally, from what I've seen around the forums, there seem to be more engine issues with Mezgers than DFIs
- Last of a kind. 997.2 is the last turbo with MT.
- Much, much rarer. Probably mostly due to the US financial ****ups, 997.2s are just much rarer than the .1s
- better suspension setup. No need for aftermarket. 997.1s are sloppier and most people I know of wouldn't touch the car unless it has Bilsteins on.
- Updated electronics & interior. Yes, the 09 has them too, but you don't get the rest of the package
Now, i may be biased a bit...
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cyclrder (12-19-2020)
10-15-2016, 08:41 PM
#29
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Thread Starter
10-15-2016, 08:51 PM
#30
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Thread Starter
Hmmm...
So just putting this out there for worldwide production numbers:
997.2 GT2 RS 500 total (last manual GT2 RS)
997.2 RS 4.0 600 total (last manual GT3 RS)
997.2 Turbo manual 684-760 total or so worldwide (last manual Turbo)
997.1 GT3 RS 1100-1200 total depending on your resource
997.1 GT2 1216
997.2 GT3 RS 1500 total
The 997.2 manual is in very rare company, I think if any of you are in the market, you'll be laughing a few years out from now.
Curiously enough, last week there were 6 for sale in the US and 3 in Canada. I notice there's 5 in the US and 1 in Canada now. Just wanted to be the first to state that I think they only go up from here. I wouldn't necessarily trade a .1 for .2 but if you're in the market for one, I'm throwing it out there and saying the 997.2 Turbo manual will be the next 'collector car' in the near future. Again, I think most consumers overlooked the rarity up until now but word is slowly spreading on this.
I appreciate everyone contributing, and again, it would nice to hear opinions that don't agree with what I have written or with what others have written.
So just putting this out there for worldwide production numbers:
997.2 GT2 RS 500 total (last manual GT2 RS)
997.2 RS 4.0 600 total (last manual GT3 RS)
997.2 Turbo manual 684-760 total or so worldwide (last manual Turbo)
997.1 GT3 RS 1100-1200 total depending on your resource
997.1 GT2 1216
997.2 GT3 RS 1500 total
The 997.2 manual is in very rare company, I think if any of you are in the market, you'll be laughing a few years out from now.
Curiously enough, last week there were 6 for sale in the US and 3 in Canada. I notice there's 5 in the US and 1 in Canada now. Just wanted to be the first to state that I think they only go up from here. I wouldn't necessarily trade a .1 for .2 but if you're in the market for one, I'm throwing it out there and saying the 997.2 Turbo manual will be the next 'collector car' in the near future.
Again, I think most consumers overlooked the rarity up until now but word is slowly spreading on this. I appreciate everyone contributing, and again, it would nice to hear opinions that don't agree with what I have written or with what others have written.
Last edited by bigmacsmallfries; 10-22-2016 at 08:24 PM.
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cyclrder (12-04-2019)
