Anyone know why Porsche went with the old 3.6L engine in the GT2RS?
11-25-2010, 04:55 AM
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Anyone know why Porsche went with the old 3.6L engine in the GT2RS?
Just curious what everyone's thoughts were on this.
At first I thought it was because the 3.6 engines are true external reservoir dry-sump motors. Then I remembered that the new 3.8 motors in the GT3 /RS are also true dry-sump, so why not build upon that?
I know the 3.6 is a very robust engine, it just seems for a top of the line model like this that they would have created a whole new clean sheet design.
Can it be that the old 3.6 is really that good? And that the newer 3.8 Turbo was maybe redesigned with an emphasis on cost savings instead of robust performance? Not that it's a bad motor, but maybe Porsche figured the old design was overkill for how most of the cars spend their lives and figured they could save some production cost by dumbing it down so to say?
Just seemed strange to me that they would go back to the older design when they just created a whole new clean sheet design 3.8 Turbo motor.
At first I thought it was because the 3.6 engines are true external reservoir dry-sump motors. Then I remembered that the new 3.8 motors in the GT3 /RS are also true dry-sump, so why not build upon that?
I know the 3.6 is a very robust engine, it just seems for a top of the line model like this that they would have created a whole new clean sheet design.
Can it be that the old 3.6 is really that good? And that the newer 3.8 Turbo was maybe redesigned with an emphasis on cost savings instead of robust performance? Not that it's a bad motor, but maybe Porsche figured the old design was overkill for how most of the cars spend their lives and figured they could save some production cost by dumbing it down so to say?
Just seemed strange to me that they would go back to the older design when they just created a whole new clean sheet design 3.8 Turbo motor.
11-25-2010, 05:44 AM
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Can it be that the old 3.6 is really that good? And that the newer 3.8 Turbo was maybe redesigned with an emphasis on cost savings instead of robust performance? Not that it's a bad motor, but maybe Porsche figured the old design was overkill for how most of the cars spend their lives and figured they could save some production cost by dumbing it down so to say?
.
Apparently actual changes on the RS engine from regular GT2 are very small with the new much more efficient intercoolers being the biggest contributor to the 620hp...... kerrrching
11-25-2010, 08:44 AM
#3
I thought it was that the Turbo motor (the 3.8) isnt at this time a motorsport engine and the RS designation would require a GT motor. I would have to imagine that the next gen GT3/RS cars would have a new motor and one unrelated to the current DCT ones. Who knows.
11-25-2010, 09:09 AM
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Just curious what everyone's thoughts were on this.
At first I thought it was because the 3.6 engines are true external reservoir dry-sump motors. Then I remembered that the new 3.8 motors in the GT3 /RS are also true dry-sump, so why not build upon that?
I know the 3.6 is a very robust engine, it just seems for a top of the line model like this that they would have created a whole new clean sheet design.
Can it be that the old 3.6 is really that good? And that the newer 3.8 Turbo was maybe redesigned with an emphasis on cost savings instead of robust performance? Not that it's a bad motor, but maybe Porsche figured the old design was overkill for how most of the cars spend their lives and figured they could save some production cost by dumbing it down so to say?
Just seemed strange to me that they would go back to the older design when they just created a whole new clean sheet design 3.8 Turbo motor.
At first I thought it was because the 3.6 engines are true external reservoir dry-sump motors. Then I remembered that the new 3.8 motors in the GT3 /RS are also true dry-sump, so why not build upon that?
I know the 3.6 is a very robust engine, it just seems for a top of the line model like this that they would have created a whole new clean sheet design.
Can it be that the old 3.6 is really that good? And that the newer 3.8 Turbo was maybe redesigned with an emphasis on cost savings instead of robust performance? Not that it's a bad motor, but maybe Porsche figured the old design was overkill for how most of the cars spend their lives and figured they could save some production cost by dumbing it down so to say?
Just seemed strange to me that they would go back to the older design when they just created a whole new clean sheet design 3.8 Turbo motor.
When using high psi forced induction as is the case with the GT2RS, thinner cylinder walls are probably not desirable so they retain the thicker cylinder liners. Not to mention that they don't require the additional displacement when they can simply slap larger turbos on the car to provide both the additional power and torque without spending dollars reworking a 3.8 configuation to suit.
Whilst older, the GT1 based motor is motorsport derived and has been used reliably in configurations up to 1000hp by some tuners, the new 9A1 3.8lt motor in the997.2 turbos is built to a price and suggestions are that it is proving unreliable when modified beyond mid 500hp figures...
Last edited by 911rox; 11-25-2010 at 09:33 AM.
11-25-2010, 10:02 AM
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The GT3/RS 3.8 motors are the same motors as the 3.6lt motors in the GT2RS. The difference is that they use steel cylinder liners in the GT3/RS which are stronger so they can be thinner to give the additional displacement.
When using high psi forced induction as is the case with the GT2RS, thinner cylinder walls are probably not desirable so they retain the thicker cylinder liners. Not to mention that they don't require the additional displacement when they can simply slap larger turbos on the car to provide both the additional power and torque without spending dollars reworking a 3.8 configuation to suit.
Whilst older, the GT1 based motor is motorsport derived and has been used reliably in configurations up to 1000hp by some tuners, the new 9A1 3.8lt motor in the997.2 turbos is built to a price and suggestions are that it is proving unreliable when modified beyond mid 500hp figures...
When using high psi forced induction as is the case with the GT2RS, thinner cylinder walls are probably not desirable so they retain the thicker cylinder liners. Not to mention that they don't require the additional displacement when they can simply slap larger turbos on the car to provide both the additional power and torque without spending dollars reworking a 3.8 configuation to suit.
Whilst older, the GT1 based motor is motorsport derived and has been used reliably in configurations up to 1000hp by some tuners, the new 9A1 3.8lt motor in the997.2 turbos is built to a price and suggestions are that it is proving unreliable when modified beyond mid 500hp figures...
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11-25-2010, 04:01 PM
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About the GT2RS using the GT1 motor it's very simple the new one isn't up to the job, and I cannot type here the exact phrases that a German tuner used about the 9A1 motor when pushed. : )
Maybe a future version of it? maybe never.
About the displacement.
It's posted before here but..:
Quote fromEuropean Car Magazine
"Aside from aerodynamic revelations, the other biggest deal here is the new 3.8-liter version of the Porsche flat six. Bore and stroke before on the 3.6-liter engine were 3.94 x 3.00 inches; on the 3.8 they change to 4.04 x 3.01. According to Andreas Preuninger, Porsche motorsport manager for high-performance cars: "We have finally really reached the bore limit with this engine. This is the maximum before we need to create a new engine blueprint." Wall thickness between bores is in fact so thin now that steel cylinder liners have been added for durability as with the GT3 RSR racecars.
This engine is actually based on the flat-six motorsport engine first used for the GT1 Le Mans racer back in 1996. With its heart still in racing, the 3.8-liter mill has not been fitted with Porsche's direct-injection fuel system. Had they done so, practically speaking, private racers would no longer have been able to use the GT3, and that would be bad. And the dual-clutch PDK transmission will never be available for this car. "First, PDK weighs 66 pounds more than the Getrag six-speed manual," says Preuninger. "Then also when I am racing, and want to really finesse the car into a slide, I need a clutch pedal and manual shifter."
The redline for this 3.8-liter GT3 climbs to 8500 rpm, 100 rpm more than before. On upshifts, max power of 429 horses hits at 7600 rpm (max torque of 317 pound-feet at 6250 rpm) and that noise is righteous as well from the quad resonance intake bevels at the rear. The gearbox carries pretty quick and short ratios and it's a psychotically intense feeling actually shifting up to sixth gear at 183 mph in order to reach for the very maximum 193 mph. There's not even a little twitch during that shift and clutch release. Acceleration to 60 mph is way too easy in second gear and happens (conservatively estimated) in just 4.0 seconds. Feels like less."
Maybe a future version of it? maybe never.
About the displacement.
It's posted before here but..:
Quote fromEuropean Car Magazine
"Aside from aerodynamic revelations, the other biggest deal here is the new 3.8-liter version of the Porsche flat six. Bore and stroke before on the 3.6-liter engine were 3.94 x 3.00 inches; on the 3.8 they change to 4.04 x 3.01. According to Andreas Preuninger, Porsche motorsport manager for high-performance cars: "We have finally really reached the bore limit with this engine. This is the maximum before we need to create a new engine blueprint." Wall thickness between bores is in fact so thin now that steel cylinder liners have been added for durability as with the GT3 RSR racecars.
This engine is actually based on the flat-six motorsport engine first used for the GT1 Le Mans racer back in 1996. With its heart still in racing, the 3.8-liter mill has not been fitted with Porsche's direct-injection fuel system. Had they done so, practically speaking, private racers would no longer have been able to use the GT3, and that would be bad. And the dual-clutch PDK transmission will never be available for this car. "First, PDK weighs 66 pounds more than the Getrag six-speed manual," says Preuninger. "Then also when I am racing, and want to really finesse the car into a slide, I need a clutch pedal and manual shifter."
The redline for this 3.8-liter GT3 climbs to 8500 rpm, 100 rpm more than before. On upshifts, max power of 429 horses hits at 7600 rpm (max torque of 317 pound-feet at 6250 rpm) and that noise is righteous as well from the quad resonance intake bevels at the rear. The gearbox carries pretty quick and short ratios and it's a psychotically intense feeling actually shifting up to sixth gear at 183 mph in order to reach for the very maximum 193 mph. There's not even a little twitch during that shift and clutch release. Acceleration to 60 mph is way too easy in second gear and happens (conservatively estimated) in just 4.0 seconds. Feels like less."
11-25-2010, 04:29 PM
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On displacement, what did PAG do to get the 4 liter engines in the newer RSR? Based on the above, it seems impossible...
