Don't want to start another oil thread... just a question...
03-03-2015, 10:24 AM
#46
Race Car
Bogdan, very sorry to read about your issue. Unfortunately it seems to happen far too often. IMS bearings on the 996, #2 rod bearings on every iteration of 944, and I want to think there is a crank issue on all the water cooled flat 6's, but don't recall the details.......for whatever reason, Porsche just seems to have an inordinate number of issues with engine durability.
I was fortunate enough to meet Barry Hart and tour his shop last year. I know a little more about how he handles the scuffing issue with his liners than some of the other options. One thing I know is that he absolutely believes that the Millers (specifically the CFS 10w50 NT) is a big part of the solution, which he sees as a full system. If you talk to him, ask for his input.
I do want to address the statement made earlier about detergents in race oils. Oil chemistry is very complex. And many components tend to want to stick to metals. Detergents, ZDDP, the NT Millers uses.......and ester base stocks. How well an oil works is dependent on balancing everything. We think of the criticality in balancing the ratio of ester and ZDDP more often than other components. But without delving into the details, one could easily make the assertion that blenders don't use ester in race oils because it impedes ZDDP. And many do not, but ester is a phenomenal base stock that provides MUCH more lubricity than the other common one (PAO). Which is why it comprises almost the entirety of oil used in F1 (though typically 10-20% in race oils that use it, many do not). I really don't much care for Mobil 1, but there are many very well reputed race oils that use higher levels of detergent.......Motul 300V, Torco, AMsoil Dominator, and of course Millers.
Interestingly, Porsche mandates Mobil 1 in its Cup cars to the point where if a failure occurs with another oil, they won't look at it, much less provide any support (per a discussion with a privateer Grand Am team a couple of years ago). Mobil 1 is chock full of detergents.......it has FOUR TIMES the detergent content of the lower detergent oils. The reason oil blenders reduce the amount of detergents is much more simple, they add friction, and reduce power. Fortunately, the NT that Millers uses offsets the added friction. And it also turns out that it still protects the engine better, here is a report comparing wear on a 996 Cup car with 10 hours compared to the typical 4 they see. This is pretty common for what we get back, and what our customers send us. There are exceptions I'll address at the end.
There are two problems with not using detergents in race oils. One is obviously that the oil won't last long. A few hours typically. That gets expensive. However, there's another longer lasting problem in some applications. Some types of cylinders, such as Nikasil, will experience sludge buildup in the porous areas of the liners. We've had a few discussions with a higher level engineer at Total Seal who races who alerted us to this problem. Not sure how Lokasil works with it, but it can be a problem.
One problem with oil analysis, and one we are trying to work through with Polaris, is that some components will be flagged improperly. There are two examples that come to mind immediately, oxidation number and wavelength overlap between elelments. Ester base stocks trigger a high oxidation number in most labs. It is important to have a baseline. A virgin sample of an oil with ester as a base stock may show up as nearly 50 abs/cm in the oxidation reading. That is "critical." Obviously a virgin oil isn't going to be oxidized, but if the lab doesn't have the proper baseline, a used sample may be flagged for that. Bear in mind most samples they test are street oils that use no ester base stocks. The other issue is wavelength overlap. When the sample is analyzed, the elements give off a series of wavelengths due to their crystal structure. However, labs will generally pick one characteristic wavelength to look for that corresponds to each element. The NT additive in Millers happens to overlap with the wavelength that Polaris uses to look for Ni. So if your reading comes back very high in one element, but not others, that may be what is going on.
I was fortunate enough to meet Barry Hart and tour his shop last year. I know a little more about how he handles the scuffing issue with his liners than some of the other options. One thing I know is that he absolutely believes that the Millers (specifically the CFS 10w50 NT) is a big part of the solution, which he sees as a full system. If you talk to him, ask for his input.
I do want to address the statement made earlier about detergents in race oils. Oil chemistry is very complex. And many components tend to want to stick to metals. Detergents, ZDDP, the NT Millers uses.......and ester base stocks. How well an oil works is dependent on balancing everything. We think of the criticality in balancing the ratio of ester and ZDDP more often than other components. But without delving into the details, one could easily make the assertion that blenders don't use ester in race oils because it impedes ZDDP. And many do not, but ester is a phenomenal base stock that provides MUCH more lubricity than the other common one (PAO). Which is why it comprises almost the entirety of oil used in F1 (though typically 10-20% in race oils that use it, many do not). I really don't much care for Mobil 1, but there are many very well reputed race oils that use higher levels of detergent.......Motul 300V, Torco, AMsoil Dominator, and of course Millers.
Interestingly, Porsche mandates Mobil 1 in its Cup cars to the point where if a failure occurs with another oil, they won't look at it, much less provide any support (per a discussion with a privateer Grand Am team a couple of years ago). Mobil 1 is chock full of detergents.......it has FOUR TIMES the detergent content of the lower detergent oils. The reason oil blenders reduce the amount of detergents is much more simple, they add friction, and reduce power. Fortunately, the NT that Millers uses offsets the added friction. And it also turns out that it still protects the engine better, here is a report comparing wear on a 996 Cup car with 10 hours compared to the typical 4 they see. This is pretty common for what we get back, and what our customers send us. There are exceptions I'll address at the end.
There are two problems with not using detergents in race oils. One is obviously that the oil won't last long. A few hours typically. That gets expensive. However, there's another longer lasting problem in some applications. Some types of cylinders, such as Nikasil, will experience sludge buildup in the porous areas of the liners. We've had a few discussions with a higher level engineer at Total Seal who races who alerted us to this problem. Not sure how Lokasil works with it, but it can be a problem.
One problem with oil analysis, and one we are trying to work through with Polaris, is that some components will be flagged improperly. There are two examples that come to mind immediately, oxidation number and wavelength overlap between elelments. Ester base stocks trigger a high oxidation number in most labs. It is important to have a baseline. A virgin sample of an oil with ester as a base stock may show up as nearly 50 abs/cm in the oxidation reading. That is "critical." Obviously a virgin oil isn't going to be oxidized, but if the lab doesn't have the proper baseline, a used sample may be flagged for that. Bear in mind most samples they test are street oils that use no ester base stocks. The other issue is wavelength overlap. When the sample is analyzed, the elements give off a series of wavelengths due to their crystal structure. However, labs will generally pick one characteristic wavelength to look for that corresponds to each element. The NT additive in Millers happens to overlap with the wavelength that Polaris uses to look for Ni. So if your reading comes back very high in one element, but not others, that may be what is going on.
03-03-2015, 12:17 PM
#47
Race Director
All I was saying is when the pressure is starting to drop, it means the viscosity of the oil is starting to go down and so it will start to reach those harder to reach corners better. I sincerely don't think my really mild everyday driving manner had the major role to play here. Perhaps I should have left the car home on the coldest days (meaning most of February) as driving it in the -25° -30°C weather was most likely the main cause for the issue. The thing is however when I picked up the car in the winter last year, with similar temperatures I had no issues whatsoever.
If you were using the car in these low temps and not using a 0w-40 oil then perhaps -- just perhaps -- the oil was at fault. Actually, make that you were at fault for under the temperature conditions using the wrong oil.
Porsche does advise to that in low temperature conditions, below -25C, to use a 0w-40 oil.
I just scanned through an approved list of oils and there are a number of 0w-40 oils on the list: Aral SuperSynth and SuperTronic, BP Visco 7000, Castrol Formula RS Power and Protection, Castrol Edge, Castrol Edge Formula RS, Castrol SLX Professional Longtec, Castrol Edge Sport, ConocoPhillips Jet Top Level, Mobil 1 Arctic, Mobil 1, Mobil 1 Formula, Mobil 1 New Life, OJS Veritas Syntolube, Orlen Platinum Vollsynthese, Shell Helix Ultra, Shell Helix Ultec, Shell Helix Ultra Extra Polar, Shell Helix Ultra C. Admittedly a few of the above are only available for instance German (Orlen oils for example). But there are a number of oils that are available in North America.
Here's a cut/paste from a Porsche approved oils document:
Above –25 °C: All oils approved by Porsche for the vehicle type to be considered.
Below -25C: All oils approved by Porsche for the vehicle type to be considered which have a viscosity of SAE class 0W in the low temperature range.
But do not get too distracted by the "cudda, wudda, shudda" thinking. Focus on minimizing any further damage to the engine by avoiding running the engine any and damage/degradation to the car for the time it is off the road until such time as you can get the car fixed.
Then afterwards make the proper oil selection for the climatic conditions where you live/drive and resume enjoying the car in all kinds of weather.
03-03-2015, 01:44 PM
#48
Instructor
Thread Starter
Let's make a few things clear here and this will conclude this thread from my point of view.
1. The blame lays with me entirely. The A40 list is there for a reason. Macster is 100% right.
2. My Miller oil change was not a scientific experiment. I sincerely believed following researching all the materials available, Miller will be my oil of choice for a long time. I was equally impressed with the amount of thought put in engineering those lubricants and with all the articles I've read about their use by racing teams using actual Porsche cars.
3. I'm fully aware of the cumulative nature of wear. I would not work in engineering otherwise.
4. I don't carry lab equipment with me so just in case something happens I can measure viscosity, chemical composition, particle element count and all that.
5. I was so impressed by my initial 1000 km on this oil, I thought I could actually use it in some low friction application I was working on at that time, hence asking the tribo lab to do a simple preliminary test. The application is very different from the spraying that happens on a flat 6 engine cylinders. Our test is also different from the standard ball test.
6. I was also very surprised at the consistency of this oil at around -9°C (neither the temperature nor the viscosity scientifically measured). It made me question whether my morning or late afternoon routine of letting the engine heat up for 1-2 minutes than carefully setting out and watching the rpm was actually long enough. Most likely it wasn't.
7. The oil was the only change in my winter routine. Take that as you want. Monday's inspection will say what's causing the ticking and the dry soot on the left tailpipes but I'm afraid I won't be back to the forum with the results. I'm not all that professional after all so why would anyone care about my observations, right?
8. If anything, I did not chime in my experience to talk down Millers and I'm not saying this because I'm afraid they are going to come after me legally. On the contrary, my "field" experience should add to their experience and perhaps help their continual improvement of their products.
Cheers Everyone.
1. The blame lays with me entirely. The A40 list is there for a reason. Macster is 100% right.
2. My Miller oil change was not a scientific experiment. I sincerely believed following researching all the materials available, Miller will be my oil of choice for a long time. I was equally impressed with the amount of thought put in engineering those lubricants and with all the articles I've read about their use by racing teams using actual Porsche cars.
3. I'm fully aware of the cumulative nature of wear. I would not work in engineering otherwise.
4. I don't carry lab equipment with me so just in case something happens I can measure viscosity, chemical composition, particle element count and all that.
5. I was so impressed by my initial 1000 km on this oil, I thought I could actually use it in some low friction application I was working on at that time, hence asking the tribo lab to do a simple preliminary test. The application is very different from the spraying that happens on a flat 6 engine cylinders. Our test is also different from the standard ball test.
6. I was also very surprised at the consistency of this oil at around -9°C (neither the temperature nor the viscosity scientifically measured). It made me question whether my morning or late afternoon routine of letting the engine heat up for 1-2 minutes than carefully setting out and watching the rpm was actually long enough. Most likely it wasn't.
7. The oil was the only change in my winter routine. Take that as you want. Monday's inspection will say what's causing the ticking and the dry soot on the left tailpipes but I'm afraid I won't be back to the forum with the results. I'm not all that professional after all so why would anyone care about my observations, right?
8. If anything, I did not chime in my experience to talk down Millers and I'm not saying this because I'm afraid they are going to come after me legally. On the contrary, my "field" experience should add to their experience and perhaps help their continual improvement of their products.
Cheers Everyone.
03-03-2015, 03:28 PM
#49
I appreciate all that you just said. I, for one, do want to know your findings. I doubt I am alone here. I do feel you have something to contribute here. I have had a hard time following the background of your using the oil. I am encouraged to hear you intend to keep using the same oil, and wonder what parameters you will be applying. I hope you don't abandon this post mid - stream. And as usual, Macster did have a lot of good information for everyone. As you discover your motor's hopefully positive prognosis, please let us know.
Wayne
Wayne