mdrobc1213

Hi gents well have a question here...I know it the 996 and 997 are well known for RMS/IMS leakage and engine issues. Well I now our new [to us] 2012 Panamera v6 has a few similar issues. Interested in the forum thoughts and so am cross shopping in this forum to figure out possible answers.

Vehicle was purchased in April 2012 from our old dealer in Texas with roughly 9k on the odometer and supposedly in great shape and thoroughly checked out and CPO'd or so we thought. Well first of all the PCM 3.0 failed after about 1 month and dealer had to replace it. Failed meaning it lost all programming for SAT radio, Ipod, BT, etc and would only play FM/AM radio. Dealer replaced it per warranty and then THAT brand new replacement failed 48 hrs later! Dealer had the car for 3 weeks then thru mid June while a 3rd PCM 3.0 was sourced from Germany and replaced. This one finally worked and no issues.

New duty/job for me brought us and the Panamera to WA state and while I was away TDY in Ohio wifey sent me a text saying that the temp gauge had shot all the way up to the top when she started it in the AM on the way to work, then the Oil and Coolant lights flashed red! Then went back down and off. She took the car to the Jiffy Lube around the corner (yeah I know) and they said there was no coolant and filled it to get her to the dealership 10 min away. Dropped the car off and now am told that it has 2 major oil leaks and one coolant failure. Service Advisor says it has 1) coolant leak @O Ring at engine bolt block assembly with pooled coolant in the assembly that had to be evacuated 2) Oil leak and failure at the front timing cover assembly 3) oil leak/failure at the vacuum pump and lines. What the hell?

So I am now upset that the car was presented as a CPO which was not done by the original dealer but very much more concerned with the amount of problems and failures all within a relatively short term of ownership and now with a car confirmed to be non-CPO'd! Current dealership and old one have confirmed that any repairs will be covered under warranty but what about problems in the future? What if my engine has other damage and/or defects and decides to grenade itself in another 10-20k miles?

I've expressed my concern to ALL parties involved and even contacted Porsche NA who have opened a case file for my car. PCNA said the case would be elevated to the regional reps level and I should hear something soon/next week. So given the unusual nature of this what should I expect gents? At min I would think a CPO on someone's dime other than myself...but could it be worse? Would I need a new engine or vehicle? PCNA rep says they will send a message to the local dealership to save all parts to ship back to Porsche AG and engineering back in Stuggart will likely get involved. But what else?

The local dealership did provide us with an 2012 Audi A8L loaner for the duration so that was kind of them...but am worried about the current repairs and long term viability of our Panamera. I mean for such an expensive and high performance car this shouldn't happen! I have a 997.2 C4S and so far have not seen ANY similar issues on my Carrera [knock on wood]. I know Porsche has a fix for this from new designed RMS/IMS to replacement engines in those cars but what to do about something similar on a Panamera?

[BTW this is our SIXTH Porsche so we do have some brand loyalty in this as well!]

PHX 911

Sounds like the motor got cooked pretty good. No coolant/no oil.
I would hope for a replacement. At least you have a warranty, but I must say I don't understand the confusion about it being a CPO car when you bought it. That detail should be clear.
Otherwise, just keep the A8L....

simsgw

From one old serviceman to a young one, and more important from an old widower married fifty years to a young married couple, do not repeat what I'm about to say to your wife. Just remember it for next time yourself. Always call for a flat bed when the engine's health is in question. Not just because you may damage it further, which is true sometimes, but most especially because it opens a defense plea: "They drove it after the problem arose. And that is what caused all the really bad damage."

I say don't repeat that to your wife because she did not do anything wrong as a person or a driver. And even if she had done something wrong, the only right comment now is: "It's only a car, babe. We'll take care of it."

It takes years of nasty arguments with businesses to become a cynical old bastard who thinks like a litigator instead of a regular person. But you may be on your way to cynicism by the time this is resolved, so it won't hurt to remember what I just said. Flatbed at first sign of trouble, unless you get specific directions from the service manager -- no one else -- to do otherwise.

Mostly, my comment would be yours. What the hell? That engine sounds like something I'd see at the race track, not on a road car. If the car was CPO'd, they had to pull a DME trace. It's time to find out what it said. PCNA will be doing that if the selling dealer isn't cooperating. Worse yet, my cynicism is boiling over. Did they give you paperwork showing this is "Certified Pre-Owned" by Porsche Cars North America? I'm beginning to wonder if the salesman mentioned CPO several times in a very careful context that allowed him to weasel word his comment. Things like "It's still in warranty, so it's eligible for CPO." That doesn't mean the same thing as "We have inspected this car in the service department and will issue a CPO for it." Not the same thing at all.

At this point, it doesn't matter because the problem arose during the span of the original factory warranty. It doesn't affect your rights, but it does suggest a lack of honesty at the selling dealership, or at least one salesman. If you presented the car with these problems after buying it new, my first thought, and surely the thought of the dealer now seeing the car, would be track abuse. I assume it's a PDK. (I don't pay attention, but I don't remember hearing of a manual transmission being available in Pannies.) That means a blown shift isn't the cause. But running the engine dry of oil or coolant can happen as a result of misuse on a track.

Since it was used when you bought it, my related thought is that somebody screwed up badly playing around at a track and decided to dump the car on a dealer as a trade-in while the symptoms were subtle enough to pass casual inspection. Again, a CPO inspection is not casual and would catch all the causes I can picture. Which again suggests that selling dealer talked about CPO but never provided one.

The only way to do that sort of thing on public roads... well, when engines were more fragile people did such things towing too-heavy loads, pushing other vehicles, and what have you. Sitting in a snow puddle reving the engine violently instead of using brains to get it free. That sort of thing. Somebody posted a video of a drunk fallen asleep with his foot on the gas and the car in neutral. The engine bounced off the red line for five or six minutes in the video (and smoked some), so God knows how long it had been going on before the guys with the camera phone got curious enough to check the noise. Only the last one seems plausible with a modern Panamera. Plausible, but not likely. Well, maybe the snowbank scenario if the car came from that sort of climate. Pushing or towing with a plush sedan that costs $100k plus both seem implausible to me.

Bottom line, if it were my car I'd be demanding help clear up to PCNA, just as you did; and I'd be insisting on a complete rebuild with a warranty from date of completion, and a "hold your horses" inspection of the block and accessories before the re-build proceeds beyond teardown.

Those are not the symptoms of a basically healthy engine. Did I convey that? Fixing the immediate symptoms will be no more than a band-aid. If you'd lost coolant or oil for a cause traced clearly, maybe; but an engine that starts spewing both of its vital fluids is one sick puppy. A really extensive post-mortem might produce a plausible answer. Personally, speaking as that old cynical engineer I confessed to being, I might well accept it. But what I'd say would be "Sounds like a plausible guess. But we're still re-building it." On their ticket of course, not mine.

Of course, re-building an engine in this context really means Porsche providing a factory rebuild unit and asking for your engine back from the dealer for in-factory diagnosis. And that is what I'd be shooting for.

I'm assuming of course that you did nothing since the purchase that could cause this sort of havoc. If you did not, the DME record will show your innocence so you don't have to deal with the unfounded suspicions of an earlier age. Bloody computers watch everything these days. And sometimes it works in our favor.

Gary, USAF retired

Fred R. C4S

All we know is what we read in the OP. There is a coolant leak and a couple of leaking oil seals or gaskets as found by the dealer. We don't know how low the coolant or oil levels reached. We don't know if the car was driven far with dangerously low levels because we don't know what the levels were.

For now, I would have the engine repaired under warranty, be certain that the "facts" are in the vehicle history file, and keep an eye on things going forward. Everyone seems to want to jump ahead and declare a catastrophe, but it may be nothing more than a few leaks. Should an owner by upset by these items? Yes, but lets keep things in perspective until any real long lasting damage is determined.

Now the issue of CPO or not, and how the car was represented and sold by the selling dealer is another matter to be addressed, separately.

In short, the engine hasn't grenaded, and may never fail. Lets just take a breath, and see how things turn out. Or you could follow the adage of a very nervous boss I once had who said, "It's never too early to panic".

Tarek307

CPO is usually garbage! only good thing about it is its like a warranty, but you CANT BELIEVE THEY DO ANYTHING except for look it over before they CPO it~

mdrobc1213

Thanks for the kind words and advice. As for the use of the car. It was purchased in April 12 as stated and the most it has been driven in a hard manner was during our transit from TX to WA during we we did 8-10hrs/day legs x3. That should not have been any issue or strain enough for the engine or other components. Wife did not see any coolant loss or leaks of oil because as I was told by the service folks it was ALL in the dayum engine case/transmission case. Nothing was on the garage floor...I know cause she parks it right next to me nightly and I saw no evidence of oil or coolant on the floor. When the light did go on and temp gauge flashed up...they both went off and the car seemed to run okay thus her 10 min trip (5mi) to work that AM. The vehicle never gave her an alert that coolant or oil was low until she came out to go home and got the temp spike and red lights for coolant/oil and then had the Jiffy lube tech around the corner check the coolant level. They said there was little coolant in the tank and gave her a temp fill to get to the P-car dealership 10 miles or so away. However I think there is no way she or anyone could know the coolant and oil components were failing in 3 different places within the engine and the car was dumping its vital fluids somewhere within the engine block area which is what I am informed they subsequently found. O ring failures are not normal...remember an O ring failure also brought down the space shuttle Challenger! Additional failures at the front timing cover area and vacuum pumps are not reassuring guys.

Track use? Only thing tracked in our garage is my C4S...I don't think the Panamera has seen the north side of 85mph more than once...as stated my wife drives it and does so quite sanely and sedately. So no track use or abuse from any of us here. Wife drives 5 miles a day to her part time job daily and in and around town with little to no hwy use in the last 3 mos since we got here so really the vehicle should not be having these type of problems!

Yes I've elevated it up to PCNA as I want an adequate resolution for the vehicle. An engine repair may be all its needed however to have the 3 leaks/failures which were noted was said to be very unusual by the local shop guy as well as the selling dealer when I contacted them. So a repaired engine at min is the least acceptable option but I think a rebuild/new engine may be the better option and one I'd LIKE to see Porsche offer along with a CPO.

Yes ah the CPO...all of the cars listed on the selling dealers website are CPOs and yes it was discussed that the car was covered by both warranties due to its relatively young age and mileage. I wouldn't buy any used Porsche without it guys cause after this being the sixth p-car and being a regular on the forums and also with my local PCA club and BMW clubs I just know how things can go wrong and get expensive. My 1st p-car was a '99 996 which I bought from a non-Porsche dealer out of warranty and I ended up putting almost $3k into the car about 3 mos later for damage/failures which a CPO would have detected IF done. So never again on that note guys...So the lack of CPO when I thought it had been done is yes a concern and upsetting.

Yes the engine has not "grenaded" but would any of you rush to buy this car from me or off the dealer's lot at a proper price point given its known history which of course I would disclose to any potentilal buyer as it should have been done to me IF indeed there was any evidence or sign of problems? I think many of you would give the car a wide berth or at least offer a purchase at a significant discount so that also is an additional worry as well.

Bottom line the car should not be doing this and we want it fixed and only ask for Porsche to stand behind their product in the end.

mdrobc1213

Thanks all who have commented so far and the advice. Spoke to dealer today who said the car had a certified inspection when they got it prior to sale but was not certified as that was an extra cost. Thus the difference between them selling a vehicle that they had inspected using their "certified" inspection and my understanding that I was purchasing a certified pre-own vehicle. If that makes any sense...hopefully Porsche will stand behind the vehicle and engine and CPO the repairs/vehicle but still waiting to hear back from them at this point.

simsgw

Yeah, that's what I feared. "Ready for CPO" is a nice sales line and very popular because it means absolutely nothing until they sign the paper that says the car is issued a CPO. But in this case, it doesn't matter. The original warranty is still in force. With your long-term ownership of Porsches and the early onset of these symptoms I'm sure PCNA will make sure you're satisfied before they're done.

Gary

mdrobc1213

Well I just got off the phone with Porsche NA and the offered a "goodwill" CPO of the car as well repair of an items found during their re-inspection at their expense. Also they gave us an additional gift voucher for an undisclosed sum to be used at our discretion. Am happy that they stood behind their product and am looking forward to getting the Panamera back and a painless experience in the near future. Thanks to all!

simsgw

I think you got a very fair arrangement. All the hypotheticals that would cause me to order a rebuild fade into insignificance if they offer to repair whatever they do find now, and cover anything that arises in the future. And that is what CPO amounts to. The total miles and months of the original warranty plus a CPO cover a very long vehicle lifetime.

Good job. And good for PCNA.

Gary

USMC_DS1

Congrats on the outcome and thanks for sharing with us. Glad to see PCNA stand behind their products. Please also keep us posted on how the Pana fairs for you over time.

rodsky

Very Good outcome for you. I'm glad that PCNA Stood behind their product. Yes Ready for or eligible for CPO is very different than CPO. But you're lucky that you're getting a CPO vehicle at this point. That'll add a good bit of warranty for your peace of mind.