Car and Driver 997S -- 12.6 1/4 mile!!!
Car and Driver 997S -- 12.6 1/4 mile!!!
10-15-2004, 11:00 PM
#2
Burning Brakes
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10-16-2004, 12:25 PM
#4
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Journalists have great fun abusing the test cars.
The press cars in So Cal are handled and taken care of thru my dealer and it may have been C&D who went thru a set of rear tires in 1100 miles
The press cars in So Cal are handled and taken care of thru my dealer and it may have been C&D who went thru a set of rear tires in 1100 miles
10-17-2004, 03:13 PM
#5
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by sjsharks
Anyone who manages to pull off a mid-twelve quarter mile in a 997s better make sure they have a trailer to get the car home.
10-23-2004, 03:23 PM
#6
Cause the type of abuse inflicted on the drivetrain may necessitate a toe home!! If they launched the car at high enough an RPM, which they must have, it could burn the clutch, or blow the gearbox with great ease!!!
10-23-2004, 04:39 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
That time is impressive given only 350HP. I read the review and it does sound like they drove it really hard. "Even with the rear axle tramping violently almost all the way through first gear, the Carrera S could be horse-whipped to a 4.1 0-60" and "...don't try clutch dumps wiht a car you plan to keep"
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10-23-2004, 06:11 PM
#8
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by C4TT
Cause the type of abuse inflicted on the drivetrain may necessitate a toe home!! If they launched the car at high enough an RPM, which they must have, it could burn the clutch, or blow the gearbox with great ease!!!
10-23-2004, 06:43 PM
#9
RL Community Team
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Horses for courses...
Suspension designers typically have to optimize for one set of goals at the cost of others.
Pony-cars such as the Mustang are designed to appeal to a certain clientel which values 1/4 mile times, for a reasonable cost. The solution is generally to use a rear live axle, which is cheap to manufacture and tough as nails. Okay, so maybe the stock clutch will need an upgrade before doing repeated drags, but most of the drivetrain is built to withstand it.
Now I know the recent Cobras had a independant rear, but it was still a relatively simple design and is still very strong.
Porsches are known for their handling, and the 997 has a very sophisticated multilink rear to achive that very goal. However, that type of rear suspension design is generally not the best for repeated drags as that was not its primary design goal. When you apply sudden torque to that type of suspension, it can wind up. A typical effect is axle tramp, which almost every magazine review mentions in 2 wheel drive 911 tests for the last 15 years... BTW, the AWD 911s don't have this problem.
For example, when Tiff Neidel tested the 964 3.6L turbo some years back for Topgear, he blew 3 clutches durng that test, because he was doing some truely brutal launches.
Cost is really not an issue when it comes to strength. For example, it really dosen't cost anymore to build a high-claming clutch versus a lower rated one. The reason one will be chosen over the other is typcially more to do with protecting the drivetrain as a whole. The engineers like to leave some margin in to protect the rest of the system. When the engineers are designing drivetrains, they typically spec the components so that cheaper (and easierto replace) components will fail before the big ticket items. So clutchs will give before CV joints, the CVs before half-shafts and finally all before the very expesive transmission.
I'm not saying that the 997 can't do drag launches - it most certainly can (and has managed some very impressive times!). But don't expect it to last longer than a Cobra because it costs 3-times as much.
The $90K 997S will demolish a Mustang when it comes to overall dynamics. Acceleration, handling, brakes, bump-steer, feel... you name it.
But when it comes to the very narrow case of doing drag launches, a modern pony-car will certainly be as reliable as a 997, and probably a bit more...
The Ford and GM engineers focused their design efforts in that one area, and they delivered... but at a cost of not being so hot in other areas.
Karl.
Suspension designers typically have to optimize for one set of goals at the cost of others.
Pony-cars such as the Mustang are designed to appeal to a certain clientel which values 1/4 mile times, for a reasonable cost. The solution is generally to use a rear live axle, which is cheap to manufacture and tough as nails. Okay, so maybe the stock clutch will need an upgrade before doing repeated drags, but most of the drivetrain is built to withstand it.
Now I know the recent Cobras had a independant rear, but it was still a relatively simple design and is still very strong.
Porsches are known for their handling, and the 997 has a very sophisticated multilink rear to achive that very goal. However, that type of rear suspension design is generally not the best for repeated drags as that was not its primary design goal. When you apply sudden torque to that type of suspension, it can wind up. A typical effect is axle tramp, which almost every magazine review mentions in 2 wheel drive 911 tests for the last 15 years... BTW, the AWD 911s don't have this problem.
For example, when Tiff Neidel tested the 964 3.6L turbo some years back for Topgear, he blew 3 clutches durng that test, because he was doing some truely brutal launches.
Cost is really not an issue when it comes to strength. For example, it really dosen't cost anymore to build a high-claming clutch versus a lower rated one. The reason one will be chosen over the other is typcially more to do with protecting the drivetrain as a whole. The engineers like to leave some margin in to protect the rest of the system. When the engineers are designing drivetrains, they typically spec the components so that cheaper (and easierto replace) components will fail before the big ticket items. So clutchs will give before CV joints, the CVs before half-shafts and finally all before the very expesive transmission.
I'm not saying that the 997 can't do drag launches - it most certainly can (and has managed some very impressive times!). But don't expect it to last longer than a Cobra because it costs 3-times as much.
The $90K 997S will demolish a Mustang when it comes to overall dynamics. Acceleration, handling, brakes, bump-steer, feel... you name it.
But when it comes to the very narrow case of doing drag launches, a modern pony-car will certainly be as reliable as a 997, and probably a bit more...
The Ford and GM engineers focused their design efforts in that one area, and they delivered... but at a cost of not being so hot in other areas.
Karl.
10-23-2004, 06:55 PM
#10
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
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Doing drop launches is very hard on the car. I thnik that both BMW and Ferrari have algorithms that limit the total number of drop launches on a given clutch with their paddle shifter cars.
When the number for the clutch is exceeded, the software won't let you do a drop launch until a new clutch is installed.
I'm not sure, but I think the number is somewhere in the 20-30 range...
Karl.
When the number for the clutch is exceeded, the software won't let you do a drop launch until a new clutch is installed.
I'm not sure, but I think the number is somewhere in the 20-30 range...
Karl.
10-24-2004, 06:51 PM
#11
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by Karl Glynn
Horses for courses...
Suspension designers typically have to optimize for one set of goals at the cost of others.
Pony-cars such as the Mustang are designed to appeal to a certain clientel which values 1/4 mile times, for a reasonable cost. The solution is generally to use a rear live axle, which is cheap to manufacture and tough as nails. Okay, so maybe the stock clutch will need an upgrade before doing repeated drags, but most of the drivetrain is built to withstand it.
Now I know the recent Cobras had a independant rear, but it was still a relatively simple design and is still very strong.
Porsches are known for their handling, and the 997 has a very sophisticated multilink rear to achive that very goal. However, that type of rear suspension design is generally not the best for repeated drags as that was not its primary design goal. When you apply sudden torque to that type of suspension, it can wind up. A typical effect is axle tramp, which almost every magazine review mentions in 2 wheel drive 911 tests for the last 15 years... BTW, the AWD 911s don't have this problem.
For example, when Tiff Neidel tested the 964 3.6L turbo some years back for Topgear, he blew 3 clutches durng that test, because he was doing some truely brutal launches.
Cost is really not an issue when it comes to strength. For example, it really dosen't cost anymore to build a high-claming clutch versus a lower rated one. The reason one will be chosen over the other is typcially more to do with protecting the drivetrain as a whole. The engineers like to leave some margin in to protect the rest of the system. When the engineers are designing drivetrains, they typically spec the components so that cheaper (and easierto replace) components will fail before the big ticket items. So clutchs will give before CV joints, the CVs before half-shafts and finally all before the very expesive transmission.
I'm not saying that the 997 can't do drag launches - it most certainly can (and has managed some very impressive times!). But don't expect it to last longer than a Cobra because it costs 3-times as much.
The $90K 997S will demolish a Mustang when it comes to overall dynamics. Acceleration, handling, brakes, bump-steer, feel... you name it.
But when it comes to the very narrow case of doing drag launches, a modern pony-car will certainly be as reliable as a 997, and probably a bit more...
The Ford and GM engineers focused their design efforts in that one area, and they delivered... but at a cost of not being so hot in other areas.
Karl.
Suspension designers typically have to optimize for one set of goals at the cost of others.
Pony-cars such as the Mustang are designed to appeal to a certain clientel which values 1/4 mile times, for a reasonable cost. The solution is generally to use a rear live axle, which is cheap to manufacture and tough as nails. Okay, so maybe the stock clutch will need an upgrade before doing repeated drags, but most of the drivetrain is built to withstand it.
Now I know the recent Cobras had a independant rear, but it was still a relatively simple design and is still very strong.
Porsches are known for their handling, and the 997 has a very sophisticated multilink rear to achive that very goal. However, that type of rear suspension design is generally not the best for repeated drags as that was not its primary design goal. When you apply sudden torque to that type of suspension, it can wind up. A typical effect is axle tramp, which almost every magazine review mentions in 2 wheel drive 911 tests for the last 15 years... BTW, the AWD 911s don't have this problem.
For example, when Tiff Neidel tested the 964 3.6L turbo some years back for Topgear, he blew 3 clutches durng that test, because he was doing some truely brutal launches.
Cost is really not an issue when it comes to strength. For example, it really dosen't cost anymore to build a high-claming clutch versus a lower rated one. The reason one will be chosen over the other is typcially more to do with protecting the drivetrain as a whole. The engineers like to leave some margin in to protect the rest of the system. When the engineers are designing drivetrains, they typically spec the components so that cheaper (and easierto replace) components will fail before the big ticket items. So clutchs will give before CV joints, the CVs before half-shafts and finally all before the very expesive transmission.
I'm not saying that the 997 can't do drag launches - it most certainly can (and has managed some very impressive times!). But don't expect it to last longer than a Cobra because it costs 3-times as much.
The $90K 997S will demolish a Mustang when it comes to overall dynamics. Acceleration, handling, brakes, bump-steer, feel... you name it.
But when it comes to the very narrow case of doing drag launches, a modern pony-car will certainly be as reliable as a 997, and probably a bit more...
The Ford and GM engineers focused their design efforts in that one area, and they delivered... but at a cost of not being so hot in other areas.
Karl.
Regardless, I stand by my statement. The Porsche, despite not being designed for drag racing, should be able to handle a few passes without severe difficulty.
10-25-2004, 12:27 AM
#12
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by MrBonus
I'm sorry but if my old 30,000 dollar Mustang Cobra could be slipped from a 5-grand launch with only 30 less horsepower and still be driven home on more than one occasion, my 90,000 dollar Porsche had better be able to do the same.
10-25-2004, 09:09 AM
#13
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by Rennphile
Ignorant statement, but amusing nonetheless. Please let us know how you get on with your 90,000 dollar Porsche.
10-25-2004, 11:26 AM
#14
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Mr Bonus,
These people are only talking sense. I realise your 997 is a brand new, beautifully assembled machine and, your may think, bullet-proof. Please think again.There's something inherently ugly about seeing a Porsche at a dragway...don't you think?
Munro86
These people are only talking sense. I realise your 997 is a brand new, beautifully assembled machine and, your may think, bullet-proof. Please think again.There's something inherently ugly about seeing a Porsche at a dragway...don't you think?
Munro86
