Chris Harris on 996 Turbo
05-04-2016, 03:27 PM
#61
Pro
Thread Starter
I would love to put studded tires on the car and go nuts on ice but the system won't let me have that. I've heard of owners pulling ABS fuse to be able to do this, I guess they didn't know that you could just unplug the PSM unit. This was long time ago, didn't know either at that time.
Every other car has the ability to turn it off completely, Porsche should of made the same thing with the 996 Turbo.
I still don't get it, it's like Porsche went:
" Let's leave the GT3 & GT2 owners to gods hands but bore the hell out of the Turbo owners with a PSM they can't turn off."
Some say that the PSM will tell a lot about your driving style...uh no it won't because I may be in the mood to slide around and also be able to brake without the system going mental.
PSM = Please Save Me?
05-04-2016, 03:37 PM
#62
!["02996ttx50's Avatar](data:image/svg+xml;utf8,<svg xmlns='http://www.w3.org/2000/svg' viewBox='0 0 50 50'><circle class='avatar-circle-default' fill='%23759d7b' cx='25px' cy='25px' r='20px'></circle><text class='avatar-text-default' x='49%' y='53%' fill='white' text-anchor='middle' alignment-baseline='middle'>"</text></svg>)
gotta be the quote of the day. share the sentiment exactly 
my last plate said "psmoff" and people would say, "so, you **** people off do you?" ( umm, yeah, probably ) but after about the 11th parking lot Q & A i ditched it, but am still temporarily STUCK w psm ha. hope i can pull the plug this weekend.
my last plate said "psmoff" and people would say, "so, you **** people off do you?" ( umm, yeah, probably ) but after about the 11th parking lot Q & A i ditched it, but am still temporarily STUCK w psm ha. hope i can pull the plug this weekend.
05-04-2016, 08:38 PM
#63
I can definately understand how intrusive the PSM can be on track, but have zero idea how it can be intrusive when turned OFF on mountain curves and the like.
How aggressive are you driving on public streets that the PSM being OFF is intrusive to the point of unplugging the system entirely?
Are you trail braking on a 70 mph highway? Can you explain how it is really obtrusive when it only intervenes under heavy braking? Never have fiddled with the PSM, but I usually save my 8/10th for the road coarse, so interested in what the fuss is about. Thanks,
How aggressive are you driving on public streets that the PSM being OFF is intrusive to the point of unplugging the system entirely?
Are you trail braking on a 70 mph highway? Can you explain how it is really obtrusive when it only intervenes under heavy braking? Never have fiddled with the PSM, but I usually save my 8/10th for the road coarse, so interested in what the fuss is about. Thanks,
Porsche could have released the Turbo with no PSM, and as Berra said earlier, it would arguably still have been safer than the GT3/GT2 thanks to its AWD. But I guess that would mean having 3 P cars competing for a similar pool of buyers, and leaving most drivers who want a more even mix of high performance, luxury and safety to look to other manufacturers.
IMO, the other factor has little to do with the 996T and everything to do with the first 911 (930) Turbos. Rightly or wrongly (rightly by most accounts) those things became famous for disappearing off the road backwards when boost kicked in mid corner, earning the 911 Turbo a 'widowmaker' name that went beyond car people. If a cheap Honda Integra had such a reputation it might well see increased sales from the boy racer crowd, but the target market for new Turbos was obviously older, more financial, and often with a wife and kids to consider. The 996T is not a 930 but still shared the '911 Turbo' name and "Hi darling, I've brought my widowmaker home from the dealership" didn't bode well for volume sales. So I believe Porsche threw everything they could at the problem, right down to detuning the engine and flattening the torque peak. Plus AWD (even though the 996 viscous coupling system is pretty woolly it still ticked the marketing box), improved ABS, intrusive PSM with no full defeat button, an overly damped e-gas pedal (to limit how fast engine revs drop when you lift), understeer bias (fronts too narrow vs rears), extra toe in for stability, electronic prevention of gas-to-brake-to-gas overlapping inputs, N-spec tyres with wider rain grooves, improved aero, more airbags, auto transmission option which is quick to revert to economy rather than performance, more airbags, better headlights etc.
In other words, building the Turbo's reputation as a daily drivable supercar for the average (if financially blessed) driver as well as better armouring themselves against US litigation (recent CGT legal arguments about that lacking PSM a case in point).
Mission achieved of course as the 996T well out sold its predecessors.
But that swag of measures also tended to dull the car down, making it feel rather boring compared to some of its stablemates at regular speeds, and increasingly frustrating at 8 to 10 tenths on track with all nannies active.
Mine had a ROW M030 suspension already and impressed on the test drive (the seller drove us to an impromptu autocross in an empty subdivision) but what woke it up the most was zeroing the front toe (or even a smidge out) and losing PSM.
As for trailbraking on the road, yes, of course. It's long become just an integral part of my driving (whether in the Turbo or even an MPV, and at regular speeds) and makes for a faster, safer and more efficient journey in my book. More considerate too as I can normally turn into a well-sighted side street without holding up following traffic for instance. FWIW, I routinely left foot brake though, which means I have good control of the car during trail braking and the transition to gas, as well as making for quicker responses in an emergency braking or swerving situation. I have also become an increasingly conscious driver, with driving enjoying my active attention so the idea of some people arriving at work without even remembering the journey is frightening. Heroics like drafting or kerb jumping are saved for the racetrack. I am no expert of course, and there are probably some people here with 100 times my track experience, but since getting my first Porsche 12 odd years ago (I learned to trailbrake and left foot brake in a 928) I have looked to continue improving my driving skills - through to racing about 10 or 12 days a year lately. So I now have some techniques down well enough to have no concerns about using them anywhere under appropriate circumstances.
05-04-2016, 09:26 PM
#64
Rennlist Member
Wow. Whether I agree with some of these points or not, that took a lot of effort to lay out your thought and I appreciate your perspective.
Mine is almost opposite with no good canyons around, my biggest thrill on the street is better on ramps! I can appreciate your aversion to the PSM with your driving expertise, but dare I say a GT2 would have been better suited to your background? Wouldn't a high speed refined and daily drivable sports car be what the 996tt is about? Why else buy it instead of the GT2/3?
Thanks again
Mine is almost opposite with no good canyons around, my biggest thrill on the street is better on ramps! I can appreciate your aversion to the PSM with your driving expertise, but dare I say a GT2 would have been better suited to your background? Wouldn't a high speed refined and daily drivable sports car be what the 996tt is about? Why else buy it instead of the GT2/3?
Thanks again
Priceless!
My fastest driving on public roads I save for those closed road Targa rallies (still an annoying GPS Tracker enforced 100mph speed limit on the Targa tour but the roads are so windy that they're really all about maximum corner speeds anyway). But even those who religiously observe speed limits will sometime in their life misread a corner and go in 'too fast'. And if they've never learned how to decently handle their car they stand a good chance of ending up in the road toll at such a moment, along with whoever else is in there with them. For those people, who will often just bury the brake to the floor when they realise they might not complete the corner, the Turbo's PSM improves their odds of coming out of it alive, even if maybe with the car dented up from sledging wide off the road. But in that same emergency, as I get better at rebalancing the car with brake, gas and steering inputs to keep it in my lane, the last thing i want is PSM taking one of those control inputs away at a critical moment and just sledging the car wide.
Porsche could have released the Turbo with no PSM, and as Berra said earlier, it would arguably still have been safer than the GT3/GT2 thanks to its AWD. But I guess that would mean having 3 P cars competing for a similar pool of buyers, and leaving most drivers who want a more even mix of high performance, luxury and safety to look to other manufacturers.
IMO, the other factor has little to do with the 996T and everything to do with the first 911 (930) Turbos. Rightly or wrongly (rightly by most accounts) those things became famous for disappearing off the road backwards when boost kicked in mid corner, earning the 911 Turbo a 'widowmaker' name that went beyond car people. If a cheap Honda Integra had such a reputation it might well see increased sales from the boy racer crowd, but the target market for new Turbos was obviously older, more financial, and often with a wife and kids to consider. The 996T is not a 930 but still shared the '911 Turbo' name and "Hi darling, I've brought my widowmaker home from the dealership" didn't bode well for volume sales. So I believe Porsche threw everything they could at the problem, right down to detuning the engine and flattening the torque peak. Plus AWD (even though the 996 viscous coupling system is pretty woolly it still ticked the marketing box), improved ABS, intrusive PSM with no full defeat button, an overly damped e-gas pedal (to limit how fast engine revs drop when you lift), understeer bias (fronts too narrow vs rears), extra toe in for stability, electronic prevention of gas-to-brake-to-gas overlapping inputs, N-spec tyres with wider rain grooves, improved aero, more airbags, auto transmission option which is quick to revert to economy rather than performance, more airbags, better headlights etc.
In other words, building the Turbo's reputation as a daily drivable supercar for the average (if financially blessed) driver as well as better armouring themselves against US litigation (recent CGT legal arguments about that lacking PSM a case in point).
Mission achieved of course as the 996T well out sold its predecessors.
But that swag of measures also tended to dull the car down, making it feel rather boring compared to some of its stablemates at regular speeds, and increasingly frustrating at 8 to 10 tenths on track with all nannies active.
Mine had a ROW M030 suspension already and impressed on the test drive (the seller drove us to an impromptu autocross in an empty subdivision) but what woke it up the most was zeroing the front toe (or even a smidge out) and losing PSM.
As for trailbraking on the road, yes, of course. It's long become just an integral part of my driving (whether in the Turbo or even an MPV, and at regular speeds) and makes for a faster, safer and more efficient journey in my book. More considerate too as I can normally turn into a well-sighted side street without holding up following traffic for instance. FWIW, I routinely left foot brake though, which means I have good control of the car during trail braking and the transition to gas, as well as making for quicker responses in an emergency braking or swerving situation. I have also become an increasingly conscious driver, with driving enjoying my active attention so the idea of some people arriving at work without even remembering the journey is frightening. Heroics like drafting or kerb jumping are saved for the racetrack. I am no expert of course, and there are probably some people here with 100 times my track experience, but since getting my first Porsche 12 odd years ago (I learned to trailbrake and left foot brake in a 928) I have looked to continue improving my driving skills - through to racing about 10 or 12 days a year lately. So I now have some techniques down well enough to have no concerns about using them anywhere under appropriate circumstances.
My fastest driving on public roads I save for those closed road Targa rallies (still an annoying GPS Tracker enforced 100mph speed limit on the Targa tour but the roads are so windy that they're really all about maximum corner speeds anyway). But even those who religiously observe speed limits will sometime in their life misread a corner and go in 'too fast'. And if they've never learned how to decently handle their car they stand a good chance of ending up in the road toll at such a moment, along with whoever else is in there with them. For those people, who will often just bury the brake to the floor when they realise they might not complete the corner, the Turbo's PSM improves their odds of coming out of it alive, even if maybe with the car dented up from sledging wide off the road. But in that same emergency, as I get better at rebalancing the car with brake, gas and steering inputs to keep it in my lane, the last thing i want is PSM taking one of those control inputs away at a critical moment and just sledging the car wide.
Porsche could have released the Turbo with no PSM, and as Berra said earlier, it would arguably still have been safer than the GT3/GT2 thanks to its AWD. But I guess that would mean having 3 P cars competing for a similar pool of buyers, and leaving most drivers who want a more even mix of high performance, luxury and safety to look to other manufacturers.
IMO, the other factor has little to do with the 996T and everything to do with the first 911 (930) Turbos. Rightly or wrongly (rightly by most accounts) those things became famous for disappearing off the road backwards when boost kicked in mid corner, earning the 911 Turbo a 'widowmaker' name that went beyond car people. If a cheap Honda Integra had such a reputation it might well see increased sales from the boy racer crowd, but the target market for new Turbos was obviously older, more financial, and often with a wife and kids to consider. The 996T is not a 930 but still shared the '911 Turbo' name and "Hi darling, I've brought my widowmaker home from the dealership" didn't bode well for volume sales. So I believe Porsche threw everything they could at the problem, right down to detuning the engine and flattening the torque peak. Plus AWD (even though the 996 viscous coupling system is pretty woolly it still ticked the marketing box), improved ABS, intrusive PSM with no full defeat button, an overly damped e-gas pedal (to limit how fast engine revs drop when you lift), understeer bias (fronts too narrow vs rears), extra toe in for stability, electronic prevention of gas-to-brake-to-gas overlapping inputs, N-spec tyres with wider rain grooves, improved aero, more airbags, auto transmission option which is quick to revert to economy rather than performance, more airbags, better headlights etc.
In other words, building the Turbo's reputation as a daily drivable supercar for the average (if financially blessed) driver as well as better armouring themselves against US litigation (recent CGT legal arguments about that lacking PSM a case in point).
Mission achieved of course as the 996T well out sold its predecessors.
But that swag of measures also tended to dull the car down, making it feel rather boring compared to some of its stablemates at regular speeds, and increasingly frustrating at 8 to 10 tenths on track with all nannies active.
Mine had a ROW M030 suspension already and impressed on the test drive (the seller drove us to an impromptu autocross in an empty subdivision) but what woke it up the most was zeroing the front toe (or even a smidge out) and losing PSM.
As for trailbraking on the road, yes, of course. It's long become just an integral part of my driving (whether in the Turbo or even an MPV, and at regular speeds) and makes for a faster, safer and more efficient journey in my book. More considerate too as I can normally turn into a well-sighted side street without holding up following traffic for instance. FWIW, I routinely left foot brake though, which means I have good control of the car during trail braking and the transition to gas, as well as making for quicker responses in an emergency braking or swerving situation. I have also become an increasingly conscious driver, with driving enjoying my active attention so the idea of some people arriving at work without even remembering the journey is frightening. Heroics like drafting or kerb jumping are saved for the racetrack. I am no expert of course, and there are probably some people here with 100 times my track experience, but since getting my first Porsche 12 odd years ago (I learned to trailbrake and left foot brake in a 928) I have looked to continue improving my driving skills - through to racing about 10 or 12 days a year lately. So I now have some techniques down well enough to have no concerns about using them anywhere under appropriate circumstances.
05-04-2016, 09:37 PM
#65
I personally need the rear seats(two kids that currently fit) and also the TT is cheaper then a GT car.
Also allowing proper disablement of PSM is not going to ruin the refinement.They could do the BMW way of initial press is the current way and hold down for 5 or 10 seconds to fully disable to make the lawyers a bit less leery. But yes the solid motor mounts mentioned by some would ruin refinement
Also allowing proper disablement of PSM is not going to ruin the refinement.They could do the BMW way of initial press is the current way and hold down for 5 or 10 seconds to fully disable to make the lawyers a bit less leery. But yes the solid motor mounts mentioned by some would ruin refinement
05-04-2016, 11:02 PM
#66
Priceless!
My fastest driving on public roads I save for those closed road Targa rallies (still an annoying GPS Tracker enforced 100mph speed limit on the Targa tour but the roads are so windy that they're really all about maximum corner speeds anyway). But even those who religiously observe speed limits will sometime in their life misread a corner and go in 'too fast'. And if they've never learned how to decently handle their car they stand a good chance of ending up in the road toll at such a moment, along with whoever else is in there with them. For those people, who will often just bury the brake to the floor when they realise they might not complete the corner, the Turbo's PSM improves their odds of coming out of it alive, even if maybe with the car dented up from sledging wide off the road. But in that same emergency, as I get better at rebalancing the car with brake, gas and steering inputs to keep it in my lane, the last thing i want is PSM taking one of those control inputs away at a critical moment and just sledging the car wide.
Porsche could have released the Turbo with no PSM, and as Berra said earlier, it would arguably still have been safer than the GT3/GT2 thanks to its AWD. But I guess that would mean having 3 P cars competing for a similar pool of buyers, and leaving most drivers who want a more even mix of high performance, luxury and safety to look to other manufacturers.
IMO, the other factor has little to do with the 996T and everything to do with the first 911 (930) Turbos. Rightly or wrongly (rightly by most accounts) those things became famous for disappearing off the road backwards when boost kicked in mid corner, earning the 911 Turbo a 'widowmaker' name that went beyond car people. If a cheap Honda Integra had such a reputation it might well see increased sales from the boy racer crowd, but the target market for new Turbos was obviously older, more financial, and often with a wife and kids to consider. The 996T is not a 930 but still shared the '911 Turbo' name and "Hi darling, I've brought my widowmaker home from the dealership" didn't bode well for volume sales. So I believe Porsche threw everything they could at the problem, right down to detuning the engine and flattening the torque peak. Plus AWD (even though the 996 viscous coupling system is pretty woolly it still ticked the marketing box), improved ABS, intrusive PSM with no full defeat button, an overly damped e-gas pedal (to limit how fast engine revs drop when you lift), understeer bias (fronts too narrow vs rears), extra toe in for stability, electronic prevention of gas-to-brake-to-gas overlapping inputs, N-spec tyres with wider rain grooves, improved aero, more airbags, auto transmission option which is quick to revert to economy rather than performance, more airbags, better headlights etc.
In other words, building the Turbo's reputation as a daily drivable supercar for the average (if financially blessed) driver as well as better armouring themselves against US litigation (recent CGT legal arguments about that lacking PSM a case in point).
Mission achieved of course as the 996T well out sold its predecessors.
But that swag of measures also tended to dull the car down, making it feel rather boring compared to some of its stablemates at regular speeds, and increasingly frustrating at 8 to 10 tenths on track with all nannies active.
Mine had a ROW M030 suspension already and impressed on the test drive (the seller drove us to an impromptu autocross in an empty subdivision) but what woke it up the most was zeroing the front toe (or even a smidge out) and losing PSM.
As for trailbraking on the road, yes, of course. It's long become just an integral part of my driving (whether in the Turbo or even an MPV, and at regular speeds) and makes for a faster, safer and more efficient journey in my book. More considerate too as I can normally turn into a well-sighted side street without holding up following traffic for instance. FWIW, I routinely left foot brake though, which means I have good control of the car during trail braking and the transition to gas, as well as making for quicker responses in an emergency braking or swerving situation. I have also become an increasingly conscious driver, with driving enjoying my active attention so the idea of some people arriving at work without even remembering the journey is frightening. Heroics like drafting or kerb jumping are saved for the racetrack. I am no expert of course, and there are probably some people here with 100 times my track experience, but since getting my first Porsche 12 odd years ago (I learned to trailbrake and left foot brake in a 928) I have looked to continue improving my driving skills - through to racing about 10 or 12 days a year lately. So I now have some techniques down well enough to have no concerns about using them anywhere under appropriate circumstances.
My fastest driving on public roads I save for those closed road Targa rallies (still an annoying GPS Tracker enforced 100mph speed limit on the Targa tour but the roads are so windy that they're really all about maximum corner speeds anyway). But even those who religiously observe speed limits will sometime in their life misread a corner and go in 'too fast'. And if they've never learned how to decently handle their car they stand a good chance of ending up in the road toll at such a moment, along with whoever else is in there with them. For those people, who will often just bury the brake to the floor when they realise they might not complete the corner, the Turbo's PSM improves their odds of coming out of it alive, even if maybe with the car dented up from sledging wide off the road. But in that same emergency, as I get better at rebalancing the car with brake, gas and steering inputs to keep it in my lane, the last thing i want is PSM taking one of those control inputs away at a critical moment and just sledging the car wide.
Porsche could have released the Turbo with no PSM, and as Berra said earlier, it would arguably still have been safer than the GT3/GT2 thanks to its AWD. But I guess that would mean having 3 P cars competing for a similar pool of buyers, and leaving most drivers who want a more even mix of high performance, luxury and safety to look to other manufacturers.
IMO, the other factor has little to do with the 996T and everything to do with the first 911 (930) Turbos. Rightly or wrongly (rightly by most accounts) those things became famous for disappearing off the road backwards when boost kicked in mid corner, earning the 911 Turbo a 'widowmaker' name that went beyond car people. If a cheap Honda Integra had such a reputation it might well see increased sales from the boy racer crowd, but the target market for new Turbos was obviously older, more financial, and often with a wife and kids to consider. The 996T is not a 930 but still shared the '911 Turbo' name and "Hi darling, I've brought my widowmaker home from the dealership" didn't bode well for volume sales. So I believe Porsche threw everything they could at the problem, right down to detuning the engine and flattening the torque peak. Plus AWD (even though the 996 viscous coupling system is pretty woolly it still ticked the marketing box), improved ABS, intrusive PSM with no full defeat button, an overly damped e-gas pedal (to limit how fast engine revs drop when you lift), understeer bias (fronts too narrow vs rears), extra toe in for stability, electronic prevention of gas-to-brake-to-gas overlapping inputs, N-spec tyres with wider rain grooves, improved aero, more airbags, auto transmission option which is quick to revert to economy rather than performance, more airbags, better headlights etc.
In other words, building the Turbo's reputation as a daily drivable supercar for the average (if financially blessed) driver as well as better armouring themselves against US litigation (recent CGT legal arguments about that lacking PSM a case in point).
Mission achieved of course as the 996T well out sold its predecessors.
But that swag of measures also tended to dull the car down, making it feel rather boring compared to some of its stablemates at regular speeds, and increasingly frustrating at 8 to 10 tenths on track with all nannies active.
Mine had a ROW M030 suspension already and impressed on the test drive (the seller drove us to an impromptu autocross in an empty subdivision) but what woke it up the most was zeroing the front toe (or even a smidge out) and losing PSM.
As for trailbraking on the road, yes, of course. It's long become just an integral part of my driving (whether in the Turbo or even an MPV, and at regular speeds) and makes for a faster, safer and more efficient journey in my book. More considerate too as I can normally turn into a well-sighted side street without holding up following traffic for instance. FWIW, I routinely left foot brake though, which means I have good control of the car during trail braking and the transition to gas, as well as making for quicker responses in an emergency braking or swerving situation. I have also become an increasingly conscious driver, with driving enjoying my active attention so the idea of some people arriving at work without even remembering the journey is frightening. Heroics like drafting or kerb jumping are saved for the racetrack. I am no expert of course, and there are probably some people here with 100 times my track experience, but since getting my first Porsche 12 odd years ago (I learned to trailbrake and left foot brake in a 928) I have looked to continue improving my driving skills - through to racing about 10 or 12 days a year lately. So I now have some techniques down well enough to have no concerns about using them anywhere under appropriate circumstances.
btw, i'm also on mo30 w just springs at or just below gt2 height and i love the way the car responds, and i suppose i don't even know what i might be missing. but then this car is quite a different animal than stock when you run it rwd with some type of an lsd as i do. so, that probably changes much of what is commonly considered "questionable" about those many added features you eloquently laid out the stock iteration is equipped with. i felt after the first car that i needed to make some changes and honestly didn't feel like spending gt2 money on the second one though i have certainly spent a cpl bucks to dial in my car as it now sits.
but again, a whole lot changes the closer you can bring this car to a gt2. i may be about half way there
next would be to strip away more weight.
05-05-2016, 02:35 AM
#67
Wow. Whether I agree with some of these points or not, that took a lot of effort to lay out your thought and I appreciate your perspective.
Mine is almost opposite with no good canyons around, my biggest thrill on the street is better on ramps! I can appreciate your aversion to the PSM with your driving expertise, but dare I say a GT2 would have been better suited to your background? Wouldn't a high speed refined and daily drivable sports car be what the 996tt is about? Why else buy it instead of the GT2/3?
Thanks again
Mine is almost opposite with no good canyons around, my biggest thrill on the street is better on ramps! I can appreciate your aversion to the PSM with your driving expertise, but dare I say a GT2 would have been better suited to your background? Wouldn't a high speed refined and daily drivable sports car be what the 996tt is about? Why else buy it instead of the GT2/3?
Thanks again
As for the GT2/GT3 thing, like Jeff_DML I have kids, and while they don't often travel along both at once (think I've used the back seats on maybe just 10 or 20 trips and had the whole family in the car only two or three times) it did help the car pass the wifometer. I sold the 928 to Turbo move as a safety upgrade too actually. I'm an acceleration junkie and it also rains a fair bit here in NZ so the AWD helps a little there, even if it also contributes to some of the odd handling dynamics at the limit on track that the guy from The Smoking Tyre was probably commenting on in that vid that Jeff posted earlier (I believe she's basically 2WD until the rears have spun up for long enough to heat/shear the silicone fluid in the front diff enough for it to thicken up, then it becomes AWD for some seconds before reverting to 2WD again once that fluid overheats, such as during a sustained high angle drift - not predictable like the fulltime even split in my Audi quattro).
So a stock 996 Turbo was the right medicine for me at the time I got it, and a modded one that outperforms a stock 996 GT2 on most fronts is still good medicine now.
Road drivability still takes precedence over track performance with mine (eg I installed 10 or 12 pounds of Dynamat to quell the cabin drone from the upgraded exhaust and haven't gone to stiffer mounts either) but it doesn't take too much extra effort to create serious track monsters out of 996Ts either, as guys like Mikelly, Powdrhound, F1CrazyDriver and others have shown on Rennlist before. A track talented friend of mine went from an SC 3.0 to a 993 Carrera to a 996 (.1 I think) GT3 and almost sold the GT3 again because it was too bouncy and scary for him on our twisty back roads. He's been trying to sort that for over a year and is now going to some fairly pricy active suspension in an effort to finally make it compliant enough for those runs.
Last edited by 996tnz; 05-05-2016 at 03:16 AM.
05-05-2016, 10:18 AM
#68
Rennlist Member
Sounds reasonable, I was just trying to make the point that you (and pwdrhound) are in the 0.1% in regards to driving abilities from the sound of it, and I am certain Porsche didn't have you in mind when designing the Turbo (all 415 ft lbs of it) for the masses.
PSM is an update to the safety system that every automaker has gone towards, since they are throwing cars out with an unprecedented amount of POWER and acceleration few can handle at the limit. Look at the capabilities of various BMW's/Porsche's/Corvette's/Nissan's/etc since 2000 and how they compare to the beloved 930 widow maker.
I can not believe the capabilities that some of the cars in the NOVICE group at DE events have to be able to throw lap times down over much more seriously prepared race cars. Going 175 at the end of the straight at Road America? No Problem.
Now what does that guy do as he hits the brakes at BM 3? Wall? Yep!
So for the .5% that are stuck in a 996tt and have the type of backroads I dream about, PSM could be "intrusive" when selected off, but for every Tom, Dick, and Harry on this board to think they have the abilities to handle their 500whp modified 996tt on THE STREET at the LIMIT is a bit naive in my opinion. Thanks again for the responses,
PSM is an update to the safety system that every automaker has gone towards, since they are throwing cars out with an unprecedented amount of POWER and acceleration few can handle at the limit. Look at the capabilities of various BMW's/Porsche's/Corvette's/Nissan's/etc since 2000 and how they compare to the beloved 930 widow maker.
I can not believe the capabilities that some of the cars in the NOVICE group at DE events have to be able to throw lap times down over much more seriously prepared race cars. Going 175 at the end of the straight at Road America? No Problem.
Now what does that guy do as he hits the brakes at BM 3? Wall? Yep!
So for the .5% that are stuck in a 996tt and have the type of backroads I dream about, PSM could be "intrusive" when selected off, but for every Tom, Dick, and Harry on this board to think they have the abilities to handle their 500whp modified 996tt on THE STREET at the LIMIT is a bit naive in my opinion. Thanks again for the responses,
An onramp is where I first fell in love with Porsche actually, while test driving a 928 S2. Floored it and was just blown away.
As for the GT2/GT3 thing, like Jeff_DML I have kids, and while they don't often travel along both at once (think I've used the back seats on maybe just 10 or 20 trips and had the whole family in the car only two or three times) it did help the car pass the wifometer. I sold the 928 to Turbo move as a safety upgrade too actually. I'm an acceleration junkie and it also rains a fair bit here in NZ so the AWD helps a little there, even if it also contributes to some of the odd handling dynamics at the limit on track that the guy from The Smoking Tyre was probably commenting on in that vid that Jeff posted earlier (I believe she's basically 2WD until the rears have spun up for long enough to heat/shear the silicone fluid in the front diff enough for it to thicken up, then it becomes AWD for some seconds before reverting to 2WD again once that fluid overheats, such as during a sustained high angle drift - not predictable like the fulltime even split in my Audi quattro).
So a stock 996 Turbo was the right medicine for me at the time I got it, and a modded one that outperforms a stock 996 GT2 on most fronts is still good medicine now.
Road drivability still takes precedence over track performance with mine (eg I installed 10 or 12 pounds of Dynamat to quell the cabin drone from the upgraded exhaust and haven't gone to stiffer mounts either) but it doesn't take too much extra effort to create serious track monsters out of 996Ts either, as guys like Mikelly, Powdrhound, F1CrazyDriver and others have shown on Rennlist before. A track talented friend of mine went from an SC 3.0 to a 993 Carrera to a 996 (.1 I think) GT3 and almost sold the GT3 again because it was too bouncy and scary for him on our twisty back roads. He's been trying to sort that for over a year and is now going to some fairly pricy active suspension in an effort to finally make it compliant enough for those runs.
As for the GT2/GT3 thing, like Jeff_DML I have kids, and while they don't often travel along both at once (think I've used the back seats on maybe just 10 or 20 trips and had the whole family in the car only two or three times) it did help the car pass the wifometer. I sold the 928 to Turbo move as a safety upgrade too actually. I'm an acceleration junkie and it also rains a fair bit here in NZ so the AWD helps a little there, even if it also contributes to some of the odd handling dynamics at the limit on track that the guy from The Smoking Tyre was probably commenting on in that vid that Jeff posted earlier (I believe she's basically 2WD until the rears have spun up for long enough to heat/shear the silicone fluid in the front diff enough for it to thicken up, then it becomes AWD for some seconds before reverting to 2WD again once that fluid overheats, such as during a sustained high angle drift - not predictable like the fulltime even split in my Audi quattro).
So a stock 996 Turbo was the right medicine for me at the time I got it, and a modded one that outperforms a stock 996 GT2 on most fronts is still good medicine now.
Road drivability still takes precedence over track performance with mine (eg I installed 10 or 12 pounds of Dynamat to quell the cabin drone from the upgraded exhaust and haven't gone to stiffer mounts either) but it doesn't take too much extra effort to create serious track monsters out of 996Ts either, as guys like Mikelly, Powdrhound, F1CrazyDriver and others have shown on Rennlist before. A track talented friend of mine went from an SC 3.0 to a 993 Carrera to a 996 (.1 I think) GT3 and almost sold the GT3 again because it was too bouncy and scary for him on our twisty back roads. He's been trying to sort that for over a year and is now going to some fairly pricy active suspension in an effort to finally make it compliant enough for those runs.
05-05-2016, 10:36 AM
#69
So for the .5% that are stuck in a 996tt and have the type of backroads I dream about, PSM could be "intrusive" when selected off, but for every Tom, Dick, and Harry on this board to think they have the abilities to handle their 500whp modified 996tt on THE STREET at the LIMIT is a bit naive in my opinion. Thanks again for the responses,
one other thing i think it''s important to remember..in spite of the fact i had whatever it is? 5 911's prior, it took me literally three years ( approx ) to where i felt comfortable and capable in terms of whatever level of driving skill i may ( or may not!?! ) have in THIS car to get behind the wheel of a rwd 996 turbo pushing the lower edge of 550 or whatever on backroads.
the differences are vast, and in fact, not for "everyone". but, the stock car as is, is no less "fun", and IS an every day car, when needed. again, it worked for me for at least a few years back when. ( i also had a warranty lol so i couldn't touch much anyway..
also, i do feel incredibly fortunate in that ( in my case ) i have these amazing backroads the same ones mcqueen used to blast around daily in HIS 930 turbo's etc some 40+ years ago.. but realize that others may be stuck inside a city and need to rely on de's or late night runs to mexico or whatever.. etc to really stretch the car out. but again, the car is no less "fun" or amazing in it's day to day capabilities. we are all lucky to have them.
05-05-2016, 08:13 PM
#70
Three Wheelin'
also, i do feel incredibly fortunate in that ( in my case ) i have these amazing backroads the same ones mcqueen used to blast around daily in HIS 930 turbo's etc some 40+ years ago.. but realize that others may be stuck inside a city and need to rely on de's or late night runs to mexico or whatever.. etc to really stretch the car out. but again, the car is no less "fun" or amazing in it's day to day capabilities. we are all lucky to have them.
05-05-2016, 08:20 PM
#71
Just went for a mellow drive with PSM off and the PSM light stay on even with braking.
Is there anyway to tell PSM has re-enabled? Maybe lightly using the brakes does not re-enable and you need to threshold brake or something ? then maybe the light goes off?
Also I am guessing the PSM is not advanced enough to have a lower threshold version when it is off like a lot of modern cars have.
Is there anyway to tell PSM has re-enabled? Maybe lightly using the brakes does not re-enable and you need to threshold brake or something ? then maybe the light goes off?
Also I am guessing the PSM is not advanced enough to have a lower threshold version when it is off like a lot of modern cars have.
05-05-2016, 09:06 PM
#72
Instructor
Just went for a mellow drive with PSM off and the PSM light stay on even with braking.
Is there anyway to tell PSM has re-enabled? Maybe lightly using the brakes does not re-enable and you need to threshold brake or something ? then maybe the light goes off?
Also I am guessing the PSM is not advanced enough to have a lower threshold version when it is off like a lot of modern cars have.
Is there anyway to tell PSM has re-enabled? Maybe lightly using the brakes does not re-enable and you need to threshold brake or something ? then maybe the light goes off?
Also I am guessing the PSM is not advanced enough to have a lower threshold version when it is off like a lot of modern cars have.
However (there's always a "however"), as soon as you touch the brake, this (temporarily, for as long as the pedal is pressed) enables the system to apply the control it thinks the car needs to keep it on the straight and narrow.
Wreaks havoc when you try to even mildly aggressively trail brake a modern P-Car into a corner.
As soon as you let off the brake, PSM drops back to Monitoring Mode.
The new 991 is even worse - it appears you can't fully disable PSM and it will intervene even when "off" and no braking is taking place
05-05-2016, 09:33 PM
#73
Just went for a mellow drive with PSM off and the PSM light stay on even with braking.
Is there anyway to tell PSM has re-enabled? Maybe lightly using the brakes does not re-enable and you need to threshold brake or something ? then maybe the light goes off?
Also I am guessing the PSM is not advanced enough to have a lower threshold version when it is off like a lot of modern cars have.
Is there anyway to tell PSM has re-enabled? Maybe lightly using the brakes does not re-enable and you need to threshold brake or something ? then maybe the light goes off?
Also I am guessing the PSM is not advanced enough to have a lower threshold version when it is off like a lot of modern cars have.
PSM is an update to the safety system that every automaker has gone towards, since they are throwing cars out with an unprecedented amount of POWER and acceleration few can handle at the limit. Look at the capabilities of various BMW's/Porsche's/Corvette's/Nissan's/etc since 2000 and how they compare to the beloved 930 widow maker.
I can not believe the capabilities that some of the cars in the NOVICE group at DE events have to be able to throw lap times down over much more seriously prepared race cars. Going 175 at the end of the straight at Road America? No Problem.
Now what does that guy do as he hits the brakes at BM 3? Wall? Yep!
So for the .5% that are stuck in a 996tt and have the type of backroads I dream about, PSM could be "intrusive" when selected off, but for every Tom, Dick, and Harry on this board to think they have the abilities to handle their 500whp modified 996tt on THE STREET at the LIMIT is a bit naive in my opinion.
I can not believe the capabilities that some of the cars in the NOVICE group at DE events have to be able to throw lap times down over much more seriously prepared race cars. Going 175 at the end of the straight at Road America? No Problem.
Now what does that guy do as he hits the brakes at BM 3? Wall? Yep!
So for the .5% that are stuck in a 996tt and have the type of backroads I dream about, PSM could be "intrusive" when selected off, but for every Tom, Dick, and Harry on this board to think they have the abilities to handle their 500whp modified 996tt on THE STREET at the LIMIT is a bit naive in my opinion.
Not sure who else may read this but I will add that it's still a good idea to do some skidpan/autocross/gymkhana/track practice with those systems disabled to ensure appropriate reactions if the car gets a bit loose - particularly if in the habit of driving assertively on street. She's wonderfully predictable if driven with the right inputs but a sustained panic stomp on the brakes while cornering near the limit would not be one of those.
Yes, it's amazing how much power can be bought for next to nothing these days. As for the 930 widowmaking though, it wasn't so much the raw power of it (though it has a still respectable power to weight ratio) but more the way turbo thrust suddenly hit her relatively narrow and hard (by today's standards) rear tires in a bit of a nothing...nothing...everything kind of way, and that in an age when most drivers had never experienced such turbo lag before:
"The boost kick is more than enough to howl the tires and slide the tail around a corner. Lifting in the middle of any bend is verboten because it’s tough to catch the inevitable oversteer. The lovely three-spoke wheel is loose for a few on-center degrees, then effort rises in direct proportion to lock; unfortunately the steering ratio is too slow to rule the wild tail."
(From http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...d-today-review)
Having seldom had any working PSM from the start, I effectively learned to drive my 996T the same traditional 911 way from the outset and when I loaned her (pre-upgrade) to my brother for a week on his 40th birthday some years back, the main piece of advice imparted was that if he felt he was going too fast once committed in a corner to just maintain gas or ease a bit more on and steer her through, do not lift or brake (understeer aside). He's also a sensible guy anyway so would have kept his entry speeds down, otherwise I'd never have let him have her.
I've never yet advised anyone to turn 'off' or fully disable PSM on public roads (or even on track actually). I can't know their situation, only they can. When PSM really interferes, it is not subtle so if it hasn't been bothering someone then that's probably a good indication to leave it on at all times, certainly on road. And yes, we're all at different stages of driver development and we all allocate it a different priority in our lives. I'm paying a chunk of money and getting up stupidly early tomorrow morning to spend 9 or 10 hours at a track, of which 5 or 6 will be spent standing in lines or hanging about catching up with people, one or two working on the car and just one and a quarter working the controls for qualifying and a one hour race against 41 others (in a Honda). Plus eating some junk food and getting sunburnt. That's a good day for me, but I understand it would not be everyone's happy place. So yes, as you point out, it's horses for courses.
Personally though, I just hope that these assistive systems - including upcoming autonomous braking etc - remain somehow defeatable (and also that Porsche brings back a proper handbrake/e-brake on anything it calls a sports car). I also worry a bit that car makers will increasingly short cut the chassis and handling development of their cars by just masking their inherent faults with electronic aids but I suppose that's been brewing since at least the 90's when the Merc A-class failed the moose swerve test, earning it stability control.
05-05-2016, 10:05 PM
#74
Despite the fact that I'm relatively new to 911s and don't seem to have too many PSM interventions I think my car does very well on the back roads with my stockish suspension and AWD. The 996 Turbo driving experience is absolutely engaging and I totally agree, we are lucky to have them!
The next decade will be interesting though, as turbocharging, trick transmissions and advanced electronics go mainstream.
05-05-2016, 10:16 PM
#75
the hwy 1 pics are great! yes, these are fun anywhere anyway you've got one. i took a jaunt a hundred miles or so above santa barbara today as well. raced the pacific coast starliner amtrak train for few minutes as well. too bad i can't post a vid i took! ah, doesn't matter i had him by the first corner in the road ( track!? ) lol
