Byron in MS

Guys….I am having an issue with a local independent p-car shop. Here’s the story. (Sorry for the length)

Before I bought my car a little over 3 years ago, I discovered that this particular shop had rebuilt the transmission in this car for the prior owner. I called the owner of the shop as I knew him from the local DE scene. He told about the issues he had repaired and offered me some assurance that the transmission should be good. About 6 months after I bought the car, the transmission let go while at a DE.

I took the car to this shop and discovered the third gear had let go. Turns out it was a Guard racing gear that Guard told me should never have been in a street car. Some $5000 or so dollars later, I had a rebuilt transmission. He made me a “good deal” by using some used parts that he had removed from his personal car. He assured me that they were lightly used and available because he had upgraded his car. He also convinced me to upgrade to steel synchros since he knew I tracked the car. This build lasted a little over 2 years, letting go this past December at a DE.

Again, it was the third gear that had let go. This time the shrapnel destroyed some of the other gears too. I looked at this as an opportunity to improve the transmission and upgrade to a Limited Slip Differential and perhaps do the 997T mainshaft and third gear upgrade and rear wheel drive. The shop owner suggested that he had most of the 996tt parts in house to rebuild it and I may not need the 997t parts.

I sourced a used GT3 LSD from a well known vendor who assured me that it was “like new” and had it drop shipped to the local shop. The shop owner told me this was the exact upgrade that he had made to his personal 996tt and that it would not have any negative impact on the PSM. After more research I decided to go with the 997 mainshaft/third gear upgrade. I called the shop to say that was the route I had decided to go, and he informed me that they had already reassembled the transmission using the parts he had on hand. He also informed me that there would be an additional expense to undo what they had already done!

At this point we had a very specific conversation about the warranty that he was giving me on this transmission. I explained that I simply could not afford to spend this much money every two years. I do about 6 DE’s per year and he assured me that this unit would be great and he would stand behind it for a year! This time his bill was closer to $7000 and that didn’t include what I paid for the LSD from the other vendor. I picked up the car in January of this year.

The shop owner suggested that the LSD would generate a lot of heat if tracked and that I should consider installing a cooling system. I drove the car for a couple of months around town and everything seemed to be working fine. I ordered a cooler kit and made plans to install it after my first DE in March. I did my DE in March and everything went well.

In April, I started noticing that downshifting from 4th to 3rd was grinding. I thought it was just me not getting the clutch fully depressed or cold oil. It didn’t seem to be doing it all the time and seemed to go away when warmed up. Everything else was working well.

I had another event scheduled at the end of April so I set aside some time to install the transmission cooler. When I drained the oil from the transmission, the magnet was covered with some pretty large chunks of metal. I called the shop and sent him some pics of the debris. He said some shavings are normal, but the larger chunks were concerning. He suggested I complete my cooler project and do the event and see how it did. The event went well but the downshift from 4th to 3rd was definitely grinding when cold. It seemed to go away when the transmission warmed up. I took the car straight to his shop after the event.

This time he called me to say that there didn’t appear to be any issues with the 3rd and 4th gear synchros, but the LSD had overheated! He said the bearing on the drivers side was blue from heat. He also said the clutches on that side were blued with heat and that the diff needed a whole new set of spider gears! I went by his shop to look at the stuff. He showed me the bluing on the diff and the galling on the spider gears and the synchros on the shaft. The synchros looked to be in good shape, but he was going to remove them from the shaft to investigate further. When he did, he discovered that the 3-4 shift sleeve is galled on the third gear side and the friction material on the synchro was “burned and glazed” causing the synchro to rest at the bottom of the cone.

Well, you all can guess where this is headed. He claims his warranty only covers defects in materials or workmanship. He is saying that the problems were all of my own doing. He says that I may have under filled the differential when I did the oil cooler (even though the issues were occurring prior to the cooler). Or that it may be driver error (missed shifts?). Or that the LSD that I supplied was defective. Finally, he says that I didn’t allow the synchros a proper break-in period of at least 1000 miles (this is the first I have heard of the break-in).

The good news….He will replace the worn synchro and sleeve and give me back my open diff stuff that he removed in January and have me back up and running for $3500!

Guys, I know we have to “Pay to Play” and I know doing track work is hard on the car and its’ components. But seriously, three months of service!!! And unfortunately, I don’t know or understand all of this stuff well enough to even argue with the guy. He shows me stuff and I don’t even know what I am looking at. All I know is I gave him a bunch of money and expected my car to work for longer than 3 months! I feel like he has been pawning off his used junk to me by appealing to my frugality/poverty! And for all I know he didn’t install the LSD correctly causing it to overheat and ruining it. Frankly, I don’t have much confidence in their work anymore and I don’t want to give this guy another dime. Can I have him just box up my parts and let me take it all somewhere else? He has already suggested he would have to charge me for the work he has already done to the car to remove and disassemble the transmission. I really feel like I am being held up or held hostage. Advice?

Spyerx

How much power is your car making? Assumed it's modded? What fluid are you running?

Byron in MS

It's been lightly chipped for 1 bar. I don't know for sure but believe it is under 500hp. He was running conventional Valvoline 80/90 in my trans.

Macster

Find another transmission rebuilder.

Kevin

When did you install the transmission cooler? Prior to all the gearbox rebuilds?? If you track your car without a tranny cooler, you are risking your gearbox. How many track days before you change your gearbox fluid?

"02996ttx50

horrible story and news, particularly in light of your previous travails with this? car and the motor.

sounds like every reason not to ever use the oem gt3 lsd. as that are reputed to be given to fail? and that given your geography you really might consider letting someone else do this partial rebuild.

and agree on the question of trans fluid. i have maybe 7k in mine and i'm flushing this weekend, and mine is a street car with a recent trans refresh. but the minute it gets notchy? at startup? out with the old, and in with the new.

horrible story.. good luck whichever way you decide to go.

Byron in MS

Kevin...I installed the gearbox cooler in April prior to my last track day. I put a few hundred miles on the unit both on the road and on the track. It had perhaps 800 miles in total so the oil was nearly new. Yes, I am the guy that blew the engine last year. And yes, I don't intend to use this guy again. My only reason for going back to him this time was to get him to honor his promise. I am considering a different hobby like knitting or quilting.

Kevinmacd

I am not saying oil had anything to do with it, but Porsche uses M1 Delvac 90 which is synthetic. One would think the synthetic would be better since shearing is less then conventional. It sounds like the shop is washing their hands of it. I agree you need to find a reputable trans shop that will back its repair.
Really sorry you have to go thru this!

Byron in MS

Got the bill today for removing, diagnosing and blaming me for tearing up my transmission.... $1890! Anyone local to Atlanta that can help me go pickup my non-running car and a box of parts???

GTgears

Sorry to read about your on going woes. I would like to add some comments for the benefit of all reading who track their turbos.

First is the LSD. Here's the root problem with taking a gt3 LSD and putting it in your car:
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...sd-buster.html
Cliff note? The factory street LSD is junk. It wasn't working well from the day you installed it. And without proper clutches they overheat terribly and do destroy the spiders. I post pictures of that failure about halfway through the thread.

Then there are 3rd gears. I first want to address my comments about my gear. My gears are Motorsports gears. They are stronger and more durable than the factory gears. The issue with the gear previously installed was the ratio. The shorter the ratio in 3rd, the smaller the idler gets. The smaller it gets the weaker it gets. A turbo runs a 1.41 3rd stock. A 996 gt3 runs a 1.56. For a turbo car that is tracked I try to keep guys from ever going shorter than 1.50.

And turn there is lifespan. 3rd gear is ALWAYS the gear that wears out and fails. At 6 track days a year I would expect that gear to last about 3 seasons. Now here is the key. I am talking about the actual gear itself. I am not talking about refreshing synchros. I mean take out and throw your 3rd gear in the bin after every 50hours of track time.

The problem with this situation is a used 3rd gear got installed during the rebuild. That's an unknown variable. The gear could look great. But how did it live it's early life? It could have 25k mi on it and if it saw a bunch of track time in it it is a timebomb. Or it could be out of a street car with 75k mi on it and in great shape. This is why the used market is so tricky and at least in 3rd gear I would always advise a brand new gear. Then you can time it yourself and be reasonable confident the gear won't grenade.

If you want to chat about your specific situation call me. 970-669-7144. I'll help you find another shop to service you.

Regards,

Matt Monson
Guard Transmission llc

Dock

I find your comments beneficial and I don't even track my 996 Turbo.

"02996ttx50

synchros dont cost sh*t. this guy is shtupping you. you HAVE to get to guard / rader / roger at ca motorsports / or speed gallery out here. anywhere but where you've been. unless, of course there is a reputable KNOWN rebuilder in the 404. good luck man, you have had a messed up time of "it".

empathy in droves. geez......

"02996ttx50

any lsd equipped car needs trans oils e.g. m1delvac without friction modifiers. also redline makes some that is absent those as well.

no0one718

I 996tt shopping, and Matt's comments helped me a TON.

I hate hearing stories like these. Especially when it's a "respected" shop.

Turbodan

3rd gear only lasts 50 hours on track? this is the first time I have heard this. what does that repair cost?
to the OP sorry to hear you woes. I hope you get it sorted.