Notes from the Mountains: 996TT
11-11-2013, 11:50 PM
#1
Drifting
Thread Starter
Notes from the Mountains: 996TT
I’ve had my 2002 Turbo X50 since April of 13, but this weekend was the first time I’ve actually “driven” it. I know, I know, that’s terribly lame. But an abundance of travel combined with my refusal to drive hard in the mountains during cycling season have kept me confined to a few after dark blasts around a few semi-rural roads a half-hour from my home.
But Saturday morning I left the house at 6:30 headed for a wonderful set of roads an hour north of me in the Georgia mountains. Two loops combine to form a Figure 8; each loop is about 30 miles and delivers 3 big climbs to what are called Gaps down south (Passes out west, Cols in Europe.) Add a few side spokes off of the two major loops and you have a magnificent, tight, huge-elevation-change 100-mile racetrack. With dry roads, temps right about freezing at elevation and mid-forties down low, and an early start I had the makings of a perfect drive. Too cold for cyclists, too early for Harleys and leaf-peepers, too weekendy for honest, hardworking folks to be out clogging the roads in pursuit of the American dream.
First, the executive summary: Wow! This day changed my long-held opinion that modern Turbos are for high-speed cruising while swathed in sybaritic comfort, but don’t belong on the backroads. Today’s route has long been my favorite stomping ground with Miata, Turbo Miata, Mazdaspeed Turbo Miata, C5 and C6 vettes, and 996 Carrera and Boxster S (as well as earlier 240Z, Capri V6 and Camaros when I was but a wee lad.) And I have to say the Turbo acquits itself magnificently in the tight twisties, even with the very high marks set by my preceding cars on these very roads. Before buying the 996TT my experience with Turbos had all been with 930s, which are anything but soft and lazy, but I’d bought into the idea that Porsche had made a cruiser out of the Turbo, while the GT3 was what you wanted for mountain work.
Okay, now a little more detail if anyone’s still here. I’ll just list some observations:
Bear in mind that everything I say pertains to street driving, where I was never closer than 8/10s to the edge of the performance envelope. I never felt or heard the tires chirp or start to let go, so this is not remotely a track behavior report. But within that context, I was amazed at how much like a 986S the car felt during the first half of every turn. Most turns in this region are either uphill or downhill, and have signage saying 15, 20 or 25mph. I would enter at 60-70, stomping on the brakes and apexing at around 45-50mph. I was often on the edge of ABS, but never engaged it. The car turned in lightly, with no discernible difference from the feel of a Boxster. I had always expected the AWD to noticeably affect the steering, giving it a "binding" feel compared to the exquisite feel of the Boxster and 996 C2 I was used to. When I started test driving Turbos at the beginning of the year I never felt that, but since I hadn’t gone to the mountains yet to really lay into the car, I still had my doubts.
But there the Turbo was, dancing into the first half of the turn every bit as readily as the 400-pound-lighter RWD Boxster. I suspect that some of that has to do with the greater rearward weight bias of the Turbo lightening up the front end a little. I don’t profess to know the physics behind any of this.
Magazines always speak to the understeer built into 911s these days, designed to keep the car pointed forward as it slides off the road. Since my car is not fully stock I can’t speak with certainty about that. I have stock OEM struts (new) inside of H&R lowering springs, and an alignment done by a Porsche raceshop I trust. So the steering secret sauce is no doubt a function of all these elements, and is probably enhanced over what stock would feel like. Well, let me say definitively, if stock Turbos understeer terribly, then this setup is absolutely better than stock, because I never felt a hint of resistance to turn-in, and I loaded it up every way you could: steep hills up and down, a couple of 180 deg hairpins, decreasing radius turns that demanded the car start to rotate a slight bit or I’d have to really fight the steering. And by "rotating" I more mean that feeling of rotating that a car gives when it seems wildly enthusiastic to do exactly what you’ve asked of it.
The Turbo and I enjoyed several (a half-dozen?) sets of left-right-left-right esses that test the car’s willingness to transition. Again, I can give it no higher compliment than to say it felt extremely Boxster-like to me in those situations. It loved to settle into that swaying dance that trips up so many non-lively cars, even cars that have good “handling” in many ways, but stumble through the multiple quick transition parts of a drive. No such problem here. The very mechanical steering was jumping a little in my hands as the road rippled at the bottoms of some of these turns, but the feeling of sublime control was always there. I came away saying the combination of the springs, struts, lightweight 18” OEM wheels, Pilots, and Porsche’s linear and lightly-boosted steering rack added up to a perfect dance partner in my book.
And then came the second half of the turns, and all Boxster allusions faded into obscurity. Because the 986 never offered a mechanical LSD, the chief failing of the car for me was it’s tendency to spin the inside wheel when you laid the power down on tight (particularly uphill) turns. The PSM would intervene if you had it on and cut power, or if you had it off you’d just lift the inside rear and spin it. Those days are over. Man are they ever. First you have the greater rear weight bias of the 911; add to that the ability to send up to 40% of the torque to the front axle. Plus, for good measure 295s out back instead of the Boxster’s 265s.
Talk about instant karma. And no waiting till apex either; as soon as you get set up in your turn, assuming the radius isn’t decreasing, you can start squeezing on a bit of power, and as soon as you can see through the trees that the road is straightening out and clear you can nail it. No spinning, no PSM intervention, no side-stepping as the power goes to the ground. Just a big hiss of boost coming on, a tucked-in, screwed-down feeling of sideways/forward propulsion, and the car starts moving out.
This was a revelation to me. The 996C2 has the first part of this equation and that was noticeable vs. my Boxster. But adding the AWD and the 125 extra hp. of the Turbo just makes it all the more delicious.
Okay, the elephant in the room that I’ve been avoiding: what about the Powah? Did it change my enjoyment, for better or worse? We all know that having that big pair of blowers back there is nice in the parts of the world where handling isn’t at a premium; but how is it when you’re walking a tightrope between going too slow to be challenging and going too fast to be safe? With the Miatas and the Boxster and the Carrera power delivery was fairly linear, extremely predictable, and totally controllable. Also, it was never overwhelming. You never got on it in these cars and then thought, “Whoa, dude! That’s just too much too soon!” unless road conditions changed on you mid-corner.
But the Turbo is not that way. It has the ability to quickly deliver more than you bargained for if you’re not used to it. And it’s deceptive power: the base, non-boosted feel is plenty strong, since it’s a 3.6 liter decently-high-compression flat-six. There’s never the 930's feeling of “wait, wait, it’s starting to build, wait, BAM!” They really did iron out the lag issues by 2001 and this car feels more like “Wow! Feels strong! Whoa! Crazy! BAM!” So the tires and the chassis are already set and receiving strong power delivery well before the boost jumps from .4 to .8 bar, and I never experienced any of the chassis discomposure that used to happen on 930s when boost finally arrived mid-corner, several minutes after you stomped the throttle.
So, was More Powah equal to More Fun? In a word, Yes. In two words, Hell Yes. To counter the age-old truism, it’s MOST fun to drive a fast car fast. The Turbo is so well-behaved that power turns out not to be what this car is all about after all. I was able to fully concentrate on the pure joy of hustling a happy, willing sportscar through the autumnal splendor just as with any other sportscar I’ve owned or borrowed. But when the curve was over and it was time to cover the ground in between, this car just absolutely delivers like nothing I’ve driven. Love my brother’s C6 and his old C5; love my BIL’s new Mustang GT Track Pack. All have similar HP ratings to this Porsche. But it’s just not the same. Porsche really delivered the goods with this generation of the Turbo (as well they should in a car that was 2.5 times the cost of a C5 before you started checking any of the Porsche’s many available boxes.)
The engine in mine, as far as I know, is fully stock, save for a set of B&B headers. (I’ve replaced the droney aftermarket exhaust with a stock unit for now, in the interest of DD and wifeability.) There is no stumbling, hesitation, flat spot, or other interruption to the power flow once you get into it. As much fun as it is on the interstate to run it up like a sportbike from 70-130 in a short stretch of road, it is entirely more fun to unleash it on the right mountain road. I never found the power to be a negative; if you don’t want it all, nothing could be easier than staying out of the boost and enjoying Carrera-levels of power. And if you want more, it eagerly awaits your foot’s command.
Traffic was extremely light, but when I would come up behind a civilian trundling along minding his own business, passing in the shortest of straightaways was a trivial (but nonetheless thrilling) event; drop into second as the straight approaches, pound the throttle, and before you get to the top of 2nd you’re tucked safely back into the lane far in front of the well-meaning burgher who’d been holding you up. After so many years of fuming behind these people in my Miatas or even Boxster, burning up dozens of great turns waiting for a sufficient straight, this was a welcomed change.
Finally, perhaps the Turbo's greatest feature: Brakes. Being used to the Boxster's exemplary brakes, I didn't expect anything different. But maybe it's the extra tires or the even greater rear weight bias, but it began to feel like there was no speed I couldn't carry into the tightest of turns. Those massive clampers seemed to be up for anything. And with Porsche's perfectly linear pedal, the level of precision available to the driver is phenomenal. When I had finished hauling this 3400-pound beast through one particularly punishing series of switchbacks, I pulled over at the scenic overlook to... uhhh... listen to the sound of a gently cascading stream. And there was not even a hint of carbon smell in the air. The brakes sat there smirking up at me with a non-chalant look, figuratively filing their nails, clearly bored with the morning's routine.
So negatives? Just a few. It is easy to leave the car in 3rd gear and just drive, thus missing the fun of shifting. The torque takes care of things for you. Which is not to say that’s how I handled it; I love the liveliness of banging out of a turn in 2nd gear, and that’s mostly what I did. But I’m just saying it’d be easy to avoid the shift if you started getting lazy.
Also, on five occasions the road bottomed out after a short steep descent, and a tight turn began right at the bottom. With hard braking, I scraped the chin spoiler pretty bad each time, but it’s inevitable when you lower these cars, so no biggy.
Mileage sucks. The whole trip yielded right about 17mpg, but that was with 2 hours of interstate work tucked on there. (When I got to the twisties the computer was showing 23mpg, when I got done it was 15, and when I got home it was 17.0.) Still, not big-block Chevelle bad. Or 472 Cadillac bad. And that’s about it. Can’t really think of any other negative I came across.
Disclaimer: At no time did I actually exceed any of the posted speed limits in any of the fine counties I may or may not have passed through in this entirely fictional journey.
But Saturday morning I left the house at 6:30 headed for a wonderful set of roads an hour north of me in the Georgia mountains. Two loops combine to form a Figure 8; each loop is about 30 miles and delivers 3 big climbs to what are called Gaps down south (Passes out west, Cols in Europe.) Add a few side spokes off of the two major loops and you have a magnificent, tight, huge-elevation-change 100-mile racetrack. With dry roads, temps right about freezing at elevation and mid-forties down low, and an early start I had the makings of a perfect drive. Too cold for cyclists, too early for Harleys and leaf-peepers, too weekendy for honest, hardworking folks to be out clogging the roads in pursuit of the American dream.
First, the executive summary: Wow! This day changed my long-held opinion that modern Turbos are for high-speed cruising while swathed in sybaritic comfort, but don’t belong on the backroads. Today’s route has long been my favorite stomping ground with Miata, Turbo Miata, Mazdaspeed Turbo Miata, C5 and C6 vettes, and 996 Carrera and Boxster S (as well as earlier 240Z, Capri V6 and Camaros when I was but a wee lad.) And I have to say the Turbo acquits itself magnificently in the tight twisties, even with the very high marks set by my preceding cars on these very roads. Before buying the 996TT my experience with Turbos had all been with 930s, which are anything but soft and lazy, but I’d bought into the idea that Porsche had made a cruiser out of the Turbo, while the GT3 was what you wanted for mountain work.
Okay, now a little more detail if anyone’s still here. I’ll just list some observations:
Bear in mind that everything I say pertains to street driving, where I was never closer than 8/10s to the edge of the performance envelope. I never felt or heard the tires chirp or start to let go, so this is not remotely a track behavior report. But within that context, I was amazed at how much like a 986S the car felt during the first half of every turn. Most turns in this region are either uphill or downhill, and have signage saying 15, 20 or 25mph. I would enter at 60-70, stomping on the brakes and apexing at around 45-50mph. I was often on the edge of ABS, but never engaged it. The car turned in lightly, with no discernible difference from the feel of a Boxster. I had always expected the AWD to noticeably affect the steering, giving it a "binding" feel compared to the exquisite feel of the Boxster and 996 C2 I was used to. When I started test driving Turbos at the beginning of the year I never felt that, but since I hadn’t gone to the mountains yet to really lay into the car, I still had my doubts.
But there the Turbo was, dancing into the first half of the turn every bit as readily as the 400-pound-lighter RWD Boxster. I suspect that some of that has to do with the greater rearward weight bias of the Turbo lightening up the front end a little. I don’t profess to know the physics behind any of this.
Magazines always speak to the understeer built into 911s these days, designed to keep the car pointed forward as it slides off the road. Since my car is not fully stock I can’t speak with certainty about that. I have stock OEM struts (new) inside of H&R lowering springs, and an alignment done by a Porsche raceshop I trust. So the steering secret sauce is no doubt a function of all these elements, and is probably enhanced over what stock would feel like. Well, let me say definitively, if stock Turbos understeer terribly, then this setup is absolutely better than stock, because I never felt a hint of resistance to turn-in, and I loaded it up every way you could: steep hills up and down, a couple of 180 deg hairpins, decreasing radius turns that demanded the car start to rotate a slight bit or I’d have to really fight the steering. And by "rotating" I more mean that feeling of rotating that a car gives when it seems wildly enthusiastic to do exactly what you’ve asked of it.
The Turbo and I enjoyed several (a half-dozen?) sets of left-right-left-right esses that test the car’s willingness to transition. Again, I can give it no higher compliment than to say it felt extremely Boxster-like to me in those situations. It loved to settle into that swaying dance that trips up so many non-lively cars, even cars that have good “handling” in many ways, but stumble through the multiple quick transition parts of a drive. No such problem here. The very mechanical steering was jumping a little in my hands as the road rippled at the bottoms of some of these turns, but the feeling of sublime control was always there. I came away saying the combination of the springs, struts, lightweight 18” OEM wheels, Pilots, and Porsche’s linear and lightly-boosted steering rack added up to a perfect dance partner in my book.
And then came the second half of the turns, and all Boxster allusions faded into obscurity. Because the 986 never offered a mechanical LSD, the chief failing of the car for me was it’s tendency to spin the inside wheel when you laid the power down on tight (particularly uphill) turns. The PSM would intervene if you had it on and cut power, or if you had it off you’d just lift the inside rear and spin it. Those days are over. Man are they ever. First you have the greater rear weight bias of the 911; add to that the ability to send up to 40% of the torque to the front axle. Plus, for good measure 295s out back instead of the Boxster’s 265s.
Talk about instant karma. And no waiting till apex either; as soon as you get set up in your turn, assuming the radius isn’t decreasing, you can start squeezing on a bit of power, and as soon as you can see through the trees that the road is straightening out and clear you can nail it. No spinning, no PSM intervention, no side-stepping as the power goes to the ground. Just a big hiss of boost coming on, a tucked-in, screwed-down feeling of sideways/forward propulsion, and the car starts moving out.
This was a revelation to me. The 996C2 has the first part of this equation and that was noticeable vs. my Boxster. But adding the AWD and the 125 extra hp. of the Turbo just makes it all the more delicious.
Okay, the elephant in the room that I’ve been avoiding: what about the Powah? Did it change my enjoyment, for better or worse? We all know that having that big pair of blowers back there is nice in the parts of the world where handling isn’t at a premium; but how is it when you’re walking a tightrope between going too slow to be challenging and going too fast to be safe? With the Miatas and the Boxster and the Carrera power delivery was fairly linear, extremely predictable, and totally controllable. Also, it was never overwhelming. You never got on it in these cars and then thought, “Whoa, dude! That’s just too much too soon!” unless road conditions changed on you mid-corner.
But the Turbo is not that way. It has the ability to quickly deliver more than you bargained for if you’re not used to it. And it’s deceptive power: the base, non-boosted feel is plenty strong, since it’s a 3.6 liter decently-high-compression flat-six. There’s never the 930's feeling of “wait, wait, it’s starting to build, wait, BAM!” They really did iron out the lag issues by 2001 and this car feels more like “Wow! Feels strong! Whoa! Crazy! BAM!” So the tires and the chassis are already set and receiving strong power delivery well before the boost jumps from .4 to .8 bar, and I never experienced any of the chassis discomposure that used to happen on 930s when boost finally arrived mid-corner, several minutes after you stomped the throttle.
So, was More Powah equal to More Fun? In a word, Yes. In two words, Hell Yes. To counter the age-old truism, it’s MOST fun to drive a fast car fast. The Turbo is so well-behaved that power turns out not to be what this car is all about after all. I was able to fully concentrate on the pure joy of hustling a happy, willing sportscar through the autumnal splendor just as with any other sportscar I’ve owned or borrowed. But when the curve was over and it was time to cover the ground in between, this car just absolutely delivers like nothing I’ve driven. Love my brother’s C6 and his old C5; love my BIL’s new Mustang GT Track Pack. All have similar HP ratings to this Porsche. But it’s just not the same. Porsche really delivered the goods with this generation of the Turbo (as well they should in a car that was 2.5 times the cost of a C5 before you started checking any of the Porsche’s many available boxes.)
The engine in mine, as far as I know, is fully stock, save for a set of B&B headers. (I’ve replaced the droney aftermarket exhaust with a stock unit for now, in the interest of DD and wifeability.) There is no stumbling, hesitation, flat spot, or other interruption to the power flow once you get into it. As much fun as it is on the interstate to run it up like a sportbike from 70-130 in a short stretch of road, it is entirely more fun to unleash it on the right mountain road. I never found the power to be a negative; if you don’t want it all, nothing could be easier than staying out of the boost and enjoying Carrera-levels of power. And if you want more, it eagerly awaits your foot’s command.
Traffic was extremely light, but when I would come up behind a civilian trundling along minding his own business, passing in the shortest of straightaways was a trivial (but nonetheless thrilling) event; drop into second as the straight approaches, pound the throttle, and before you get to the top of 2nd you’re tucked safely back into the lane far in front of the well-meaning burgher who’d been holding you up. After so many years of fuming behind these people in my Miatas or even Boxster, burning up dozens of great turns waiting for a sufficient straight, this was a welcomed change.
Finally, perhaps the Turbo's greatest feature: Brakes. Being used to the Boxster's exemplary brakes, I didn't expect anything different. But maybe it's the extra tires or the even greater rear weight bias, but it began to feel like there was no speed I couldn't carry into the tightest of turns. Those massive clampers seemed to be up for anything. And with Porsche's perfectly linear pedal, the level of precision available to the driver is phenomenal. When I had finished hauling this 3400-pound beast through one particularly punishing series of switchbacks, I pulled over at the scenic overlook to... uhhh... listen to the sound of a gently cascading stream. And there was not even a hint of carbon smell in the air. The brakes sat there smirking up at me with a non-chalant look, figuratively filing their nails, clearly bored with the morning's routine.
So negatives? Just a few. It is easy to leave the car in 3rd gear and just drive, thus missing the fun of shifting. The torque takes care of things for you. Which is not to say that’s how I handled it; I love the liveliness of banging out of a turn in 2nd gear, and that’s mostly what I did. But I’m just saying it’d be easy to avoid the shift if you started getting lazy.
Also, on five occasions the road bottomed out after a short steep descent, and a tight turn began right at the bottom. With hard braking, I scraped the chin spoiler pretty bad each time, but it’s inevitable when you lower these cars, so no biggy.
Mileage sucks. The whole trip yielded right about 17mpg, but that was with 2 hours of interstate work tucked on there. (When I got to the twisties the computer was showing 23mpg, when I got done it was 15, and when I got home it was 17.0.) Still, not big-block Chevelle bad. Or 472 Cadillac bad. And that’s about it. Can’t really think of any other negative I came across.
Disclaimer: At no time did I actually exceed any of the posted speed limits in any of the fine counties I may or may not have passed through in this entirely fictional journey.
11-12-2013, 08:31 AM
#5
Rennlist Member
Great write up and beautiful car. I love those sport technos. Wish I had some of those mountain roads around here after reading your story.
11-12-2013, 09:20 AM
#6
Nordschleife Master
Your right with so much torque, I have to shift a lot less then my 996 4S, even at the track. If you ever get a ecu flash the mileage is terrible. Brakes are adequate for the street but the pads do where quickly and I would go with a race pad which lasts longer and are better. Almost a must have to do if you have a flash and do any tracking while the oem pads were great on my 4S, the speeds the TT does is way beyond and require much more braking.
11-12-2013, 10:28 AM
#7
Drifting
Thread Starter
Your right with so much torque, I have to shift a lot less then my 996 4S, even at the track. If you ever get a ecu flash the mileage is terrible. Brakes are adequate for the street but the pads do where quickly and I would go with a race pad which lasts longer and are better. Almost a must have to do if you have a flash and do any tracking while the oem pads were great on my 4S, the speeds the TT does is way beyond and require much more braking.
As for pads, my experience with track pads has always been (like nearly everything else) what's great for the track is somewhere between okay and awful for the street. To the point that when I used to regularly track a car I also used on the street some, I'd change from street to race pads for the weekend, then back to street before going out again. The noise, and need to warm them up before they're any good at stopping was too much annoyance on the street.
But yeah, I'd definitely want to replace pads and tires if I were at the track in this pig!
The nice thing about the NoGa mountains is that you are rarely carrying much speed into the next turn, they come so close together. So the brakes aren't getting anything like the abuse they get at Road Atlanta with 140+ to 45mph stops.
Last edited by NoGaBiker; 11-12-2013 at 10:44 AM.
Trending Topics
11-12-2013, 11:09 AM
#8
Rennlist Member
11-12-2013, 12:48 PM
#9
Instructor
Good read! Glad you enjoyed it.
I have not had the pleasure of trying the mountain runs in Miatas, Boxsters - I have thought it might be more fun in a tossable, lighter car. Good to hear your comparison.
You are right that the Turbo makes these runs as if the car is not even breaking a sweat whereas other cars are straining.
Never need to (or want to) go 100%.
I had my car on Road Atlanta and Autox - overall, my impression still stands. The turbo is a bit of a pig. but it does pretty much everything very well.
Did your run look something like this fictional representation?
I have not had the pleasure of trying the mountain runs in Miatas, Boxsters - I have thought it might be more fun in a tossable, lighter car. Good to hear your comparison.
You are right that the Turbo makes these runs as if the car is not even breaking a sweat whereas other cars are straining.
Never need to (or want to) go 100%.
I had my car on Road Atlanta and Autox - overall, my impression still stands. The turbo is a bit of a pig. but it does pretty much everything very well.
Did your run look something like this fictional representation?
11-12-2013, 01:16 PM
#11
Drifting
Thread Starter
Mine's the very rarely seen Artic Silver.
Although the interior is fairly rare: Natural Grey, which looks exactly like Black but doesn't wear as well, while costing $3500 more. You can see why it's rare.
Here's a comparison of Artic (Turbo) and GT Silver Metallic (Boxster)
Although the interior is fairly rare: Natural Grey, which looks exactly like Black but doesn't wear as well, while costing $3500 more. You can see why it's rare.
Here's a comparison of Artic (Turbo) and GT Silver Metallic (Boxster)
11-12-2013, 01:18 PM
#12
Drifting
Thread Starter
Good read! Glad you enjoyed it.
I have not had the pleasure of trying the mountain runs in Miatas, Boxsters - I have thought it might be more fun in a tossable, lighter car. Good to hear your comparison.
You are right that the Turbo makes these runs as if the car is not even breaking a sweat whereas other cars are straining.
Never need to (or want to) go 100%.
I had my car on Road Atlanta and Autox - overall, my impression still stands. The turbo is a bit of a pig. but it does pretty much everything very well.
Did your run look something like this fictional representation?
GA Mnt Run
I have not had the pleasure of trying the mountain runs in Miatas, Boxsters - I have thought it might be more fun in a tossable, lighter car. Good to hear your comparison.
You are right that the Turbo makes these runs as if the car is not even breaking a sweat whereas other cars are straining.
Never need to (or want to) go 100%.
I had my car on Road Atlanta and Autox - overall, my impression still stands. The turbo is a bit of a pig. but it does pretty much everything very well.
Did your run look something like this fictional representation?
GA Mnt Run
I woulda let you know but didn't decide to go until 11pm Friday. Next time I'll plan a little ahead and give a shout.
11-13-2013, 02:17 AM
#14
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Gig Harbor, WA
Posts: 791
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
my next pads are going to be these
http://coolcarbonperformance.com/
Have heard some pretty good things about them
http://coolcarbonperformance.com/
Have heard some pretty good things about them
11-13-2013, 08:59 AM
#15
Drifting
Thread Starter
my next pads are going to be these
http://coolcarbonperformance.com/
Have heard some pretty good things about them
http://coolcarbonperformance.com/
Have heard some pretty good things about them