JBaker1121

Hey guys,

A while back my father and I were looking at 964-era porsches for a "fun" car on the side, but just figured for the money they are asking for them it would be "better" to get a newer model turbo.
While searching this weekend we came across a super clean '01 996 Turbo tiptronic, black/black with 22k Miles. They are asking $45.5k

Options:
CARBON DECOR PKG
CARBON/ALUMINUM TIPTRONIC SHIFT LEVER/BRAKE HANDLE
SELF-DIMMING INTERIOR/DRIVER EXTERIOR MIRRORS
HEATED FRONT SEAT PKG
FULL LEATHER SEATS
5-SPEED TIPTRONIC AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION
http://www.kammotorsportsinc.com/cgi...4146&d_id=1267

The car is mint, pictures show no body damage besides the fading of the wheel center caps.
The place was closed yesterday and is closed today for the holiday, but we are expecting to take a look at it as soon as possible; the place is a good hour's drive from where we live.

Yes, it's an automatic, but my father is approaching 60 years of age and already has a bad wrist/ankles from years of tennis and golf, and NYC driving calls for something a little easier to drive as a DD. Also, in case my mother needs to drive it she will be able to. This will takeover my father's Jaguar xk8 convert as his DD.

Basically, I wanted some opinions on the price/mileage with the options shown, at the same time I will be browsing the site for more details, common issues, things to watch out for, what to "check" before purchase, etc. specific to 996 turbos. The carbon interior is a bit gimmicky in my opinion (No way, a twenty year old "gar guy" thinks carbon fiber is gimmicky!?) , was this a factory option or an aftermarkey addon? I cannot tell the quality from the pictures.

Any help is appreciated, because we are pretty new to porsche vehicles
(besides the '85 Carrera my father bought new in 85 and had for 3 years)
But love german engineering (Mercedes, to be precise)

Thanks!

Some pictures from the dealer:




love the *** shot



I already know I will be removing the front bumper plastic guards and plate.

SSST

Price is high, but it's a dealer. Assuming it clears a thorough PPI, I would say 41k. No more than 43k.

Hard to tell from the pictures, but one thing is it doesn't look like the spoiler is fully retracted. They may have raised it manually and then not fully retracted it, but it's something to check. That's not a cheap repair.

LVDell

01 and tip make it toward the low end of the price spectrum. Agree on the pricing suggestions as well.

Macster

Is it just me or does that straight on view of the rear of the car have that rear bumper cover looking odd?

Also, I note both front wheels have faded wheel center caps while the rears are fresher looking. This suggests the rears have been replaced recently and if solely because they were faded why not the fronts too?

Then there is as a very observant posted noted the rear spoiler appearing to be slightly raised...

Sincerely,

Macster.

JBaker1121

Yes, we were planning on talking it down a bit.
There ar epictures with it all the way down and all the way up; will check when we go to look at it/test drive it. Thanks

I agree

I think it's just the picture, there are other pictures and they look fine.
Good observation on the rear wheels being replaced
I'll check all of these out when I go see the car.




is there anything mechanically that I should check for when I go look at it/test drive it, etc? Besides taking it to a mechanic to check, I mean easy-to=determine driver things, obvious ones being does it drive straight, alignment, balance of tires, brake feel, etc.

Thanks!

SSST

Ask for service records. If the former owner(s) were serious about their Porsches they understand the importance and turned them over with the car.

Get an autocheck or carfax report.

Finally, and most importantly, you need to have someone who knows Porsches do a PPI. Find a good independent in your area and have them do it. They know what to look for and will let you know if you are buying someone elses problem.

Happy shopping.

Macster

Well, as I've pointed out before a used Turbo is just a used car so a thorough used car checkout should go a long way to helping you id anything bad or good about the car.

What I recommend is you visit the car dead cold. Be sure the AC is off.

Turn the key on and verify the warning lights (especially the check engine light) come on then go off as the engine cranks and begins to run.

The engine should crank and fire right up. Cold idle speed should be high (a bit above 1K rpms) and the idle might be a bit rougher than you are used to (that VarioCam Plus -- intake valve timing and intake valve lift -- is to 'blame') but the idle should smooth up and slow down to normal (740 +/- 40 rpms IIRC) as the engine warms up, gains heat.

Allow the engine to idle and warm up while you give the engine a listen from all points of the compass.

Avoid turning onthe A/C now. You want those fans off to let the engine get nice and warm (and to verify the fans come on on their own once the coolant temps climb high enough).

Once the engine is near fully warm -- a good way to know the engine is warm enough is if you can perform an oil level level check -- then have the seller take you on a 15 mile test ride. You ride along as a passenger so you can focus on how the engine sounds, how it runs, how the car feels, etc without the distraction of having to drive the car.

The route wants to be selected that gives the driver to demo the car and you the chance to experience the car in a variety of driving scenarios, from stop and go driving, to steady speed medium and high speed (highway/freeway high speed) crusing, to hard acceleration from just above idle to redline and ideally with an upshift to the next gear and this hard acceleration continuing.

Once back at the starting point verify the hot idle oil pressure is reasonable. What is reasonable? It varies but my experience with my Turbo running Mobil 1 0w-40 or Mobil 1 5w-50 is between 1.6/1.7 bar to 2.0 bar at idle. Some have reported a bit less or a bit more oil pressure at hot idle.

(The factory manual calls out approx. 6.5 bar at 90 C and 5K rpms but the only way I know to get this reading is with either a diagnostics computer connected to the car's OBD2 port that is able to read the oil pressure reading or by fitting an oil pressure gage to the oil pressure outlet on the block.)

A too low an oil pressure at hot idle suggests the oil is 1) Too low a viscosity; 2) The oil is just too old (contaminated with water/unburned gas which lowers the oils' viscosity); or 3) The engine's worn and low oil pressure is the result of that wear. Regardless I think you'd want to walk away from the car at this point.

OTOH, if the oil pressure is too high at hot idle then I might suspect the wrong weight of oil is being used. One 'trick' to quiet a noisy engine is to run a much heavier oil in the engine. In some cases gear oil has been used. The engine becomes quiet but the oil pressure is very high at idle. With the engine off and though hot carefully remove the oil tank cap and give a smell of the oil. If transmssion oil has been used I think you'll know it from the smell.

At 3K rpms 4 bar or a bit higher (4.5 bar) based on my Turbo's oil pressure reading with the right and fresh oil in the engine.

Be aware in some cars the oil pressure needle can jump about some which is not usually a real oil pressure problem but simply a gage or electrical connector or oil sender problem. But the oil pressure should not dip from say 4 bar to 2 bar or at idle from say 2 bar to 1 bar. And at no time should the oil warning light come or the engine react to the dip in the needle's position.

Anyhow, you take the car out as a driver now and follow the same route and directly experience the car in all the possible scenarios. Under hard acceleration confirm 0.7 bar boost though depending upon where you are and traffic and other factors you may not see more than 0.6 bar or you may see 0.8 or even higher (if you're test driving the car at maybe 4K or higher elevation).

Remember boost falls away pretty guickly as rpms climb above 4K so to see max boost you'll need to nail the throttle at a lower engine speed (under 3K) and a higher (but not too high) a gear.

After your test drive and if you're still happy with the car's overall performance (and not just blinded to anything but its blinding acceleration) and the engine vital signs remain good and the engine remains quiet then you can give the car a complete used car checkout.

At some point -- after the test ride/drive is best -- you or your PPI guy need to get the car in the air and look for any signs of oi/fluid leaks.

Be sure this involves not only checking for leaks at the easy to see places but along side the transmission, after every hose/reservior fitting/connection, from the radiators and A/C condensors and power steering rack, at the front of the car, to the spoiler hydraulics at he rear of the car and everyone in between.

Be prepared with a bright light and the effort it takes to look past/above/beyond the various underbody panels.

You want to shine a light and put your eyeballs on every shaft, lever, rod seal, hose clamp, hose fitting the car has.

Another check would be to have the PPI guy remove the oil filter housing and filter and check the filter for any metal or other material debris. The filter element should be replaced along with the o-ring. Hopefully you'll be the first to do this check. But at least see that it is done *after* that 30 mile test ride/drive.

Sincerely,

Macster.

JBaker1121

I have the carfax, the link is above. I am having a dealership friend run the VIN as well. There were 3 owners who had it for about the same amount of time each, so that does not raise any red flags...its not like the last owner(s) had it fora month then dumped it.
There is a local shop to where I live, Rennwerke, but the car is an hour away and the closest place is probably just Huntington Porsche, a dealer.
Thanks!

Thank you This is a perfect example of a response I was looking for. I'll be sure to take note of all of those variables and make whichever shop I use for PPI aware of known "issues".

Thanks Guys! Keep 'em coming.

I'm still waiting on a response from the dealer.

JBaker1121

edit: Just heard back from the dealer. I think we are going to go look at it later today!
I'll keep everything you guys said in mind; I copied it into a word doc to have on my blackberry when we are at the dealer so I don't forget! Wish me luck! I hope this is "the one"

Macster

The shop you select for a PPI should know all I posted and tons more.

Be careful focusing on known or common issues. This has some validity of course, but you want to be sure the car's free of any issues.

So treat the car as a complete unknown. Assume the worst and as you inspect the car as you spend time with the car check off either mentally (not my first choice) or using a check list issues that you confirm are not present or issues you do confirm. Check off the various vehicle systems as you test them and confirm they work.

CarFax is not infallible. A clean CarFax report is no guarantee the car has no negative issues/incidents. A CarFax report is just one tiny tool in your tool box of used car selection.

Sincerely,

Macster.

JBaker1121

i appreciate the help. I also understand a carfax is not the know-all source for a vehicle. I am extremely picky, to be honest, and usually have a good feel for things condisering vehicles. I made a checklist based on a few things I've found in my research.
We are going to see the car today, but even if we are interested I cannot have the PPI done until thursday by the closest dealer. They do have a lift on-site at this dealer so maybe I will ask to have it put up there to inspect some things myself while I look at it today, then (if all goes well) put a deposit down, and have the PPI done on thursday, and hopfully have the car by this weekend.....but of course nothing goes according to plan, so we shall see. I keep knocking on wood, avoiding ladders, and looking out for black cats, and being careful around mirrors to ensure my luck stays nuetral.

Thanks again guys! Wish me luck!

SSST

Luck occurs when preparation meets opportunity. Just do your homework and try not to get emotionally attached to the car before the deal is done.

Good Luck!

JBaker1121

You are correct.
I am trying to not get too attached, and have been doing my homework.
Buttttt I am still excited to see the car today.

Macster

Everyone has a different used car buying technique but I have to say putting a deposit down is generally not found in teh better techniques.

By puttting down a deposit (unless it is quite small) is not a good idea. With a larger deposit you lose some negotiating leverage.

I like the idea of having the car put on a lift. If at all possible arrange to this *after* any test ride/drive. A used car can be subjected to a pretty thorough cleaning to remove any signs of fluid leaks (though a car with an unusually clean underneath is suspicious) but any leak worth worrying about should manifest its presence after 30 miles of various driving.

Sincerely,

Macster.

JBaker1121

So we went and looked at it today; We are currently negotiating price with the dealer: they listed it for $45k, we said $40k and we'll meet in the middle. I'm guessing they'll say $43.5k or $44k, so We are planning to offer $42.5k tops.

The salesman was trying to tell me that "that's what they paid for the car" and thet "theres no room for profit with that price" Which I know is BS.
Frist of all, I knew more about the car than he did and I've only been thoroughly searching for information for two days. Plus, I have dealer-info about the wholesale price, auction price average, etc and know he is BSing.
We'll see.

There are some issues with the car.

The rear passenger tire is bald; the other rear is getting there. Fronts are ok. They look like the original tires but the carfax says "tires replaced"

The body is an 8/10. There are some door dings, scratches, scrapes that were covered up on the bumpers, the part of the bumper right above the diffuser right in the middle has a nice gash that was covered up, otherwise there is nothing major.

The one front wheel is actually missing the center cap; the other front is just fading.

There seems to be something "missing" from the two side vents behind the doors. When I look into them, there is nothing....there is primer with a little bit of black overspray. Does a duct belong in here? Should it be sprayed body color? I didnt take a picture but See the first picture; you can kind of see what I am talking about. Here is an example of what I mean http://www.ladismantler.com/index.ph...tem&inv_id=973
If oyu look at the pic where you can see "into" the tube, it kind of looks like grey primer iwth black overspray, unless that is just reflection. This car had grey paint in there with some black overpsray.

The car drove nicely, idled nicely, tracked straight, brakes were good, everything worked fine besides the boot release button on the kick panel; it did not work. However, they have pictures form under the hood so obviously it was working.
I did the psi check, started it without AC and listened, the idle was exactly as described, No exhaust rattle, motor sounded nice, it pulled nicely, the transmission was smooth, everything seemed pretty nice.
The ride was just like I expected a 10 year old porsche to ride. Stiff, but sporty.
The carbon trim needs to be replaced...it was yellow, faded, and cracky. Apparently it was the dealer option but it looks low-quality to me.

We'll see what happens with the price. I think we can pay what we want to
We are paying in full by either check or wire, and they are aware of that. I'm sure thye will not pass up $42.5k considering the issues listed above.