Another one ticking......Help
10-01-2016, 02:07 PM
#31
Former Vendor
But I have experienced first-hand that bad lifters and scoring issues can exist simultaneously.
That oil is then fed into the lifters, and there's no way for the oil to make its way out of the lifter unless it bleeds by the hydraulic tip... Debris laden oil won't do that, the debris stays inside the lifter, and effectively seizes the hydraulic assembly.
This gives the lifter lash, and lash = noise.
No, the oil filter won't stop this; because, it sucks.
10-01-2016, 02:39 PM
#32
Race Director
Well the inspection camera was about as much use as a fart in an elevator..... The 45 degree mirror attachment did nothing, so that's going back to Canadian Tire.
I rebuilt and checked with the good old stethoscope and it seems to be in the head on cylinder 1, you can hear it on the headers, head itself and quietens as you move towards centre of the engine and front of the car.
Still waiting to get filter and tools to remove from Pelican, but still seems like lifters to me.
Any thoughts Team Rennlist?
I rebuilt and checked with the good old stethoscope and it seems to be in the head on cylinder 1, you can hear it on the headers, head itself and quietens as you move towards centre of the engine and front of the car.
Still waiting to get filter and tools to remove from Pelican, but still seems like lifters to me.
Any thoughts Team Rennlist?
The engine is not misfiring. If the lifter is the problem it is very likely there is just some extra clearance at the bucket/lobe interface and this you hear as a tick. The engine won't misfire and except for the noise probably run ok.
Absence of misfires does not let bore scoring off the hook either.
One possible thing you can do is do a leak down test. What you want to do is at least test each of the cylinders on the side with the noise. Test each cylinder's leak down at TDC but also after rotating the engine ever so carefully to move the piston down the cylinder. What you are looking for is one cylinder which manifests bigger leak down numbers than the other 2 cylinders when tested in the same way. If there is bore scoring at some point the cylinder's leak down numbers should deteriorate as the piston is moved down the bore.
I forget if you collected an oil sample for analysis. If there is bore scoring the alum. PPM count can be high, with an elevated iron PPM as well. (The pistons are coated with iron along their skirts.)
10-01-2016, 02:46 PM
#33
Former Vendor
Lifters will create misfires.. These are often not recorded, or lead to a CEL, but with live data for individual cylinder misfires, it can often be seen, and even logged.
I use exhaust system pressure transducers to log and plot the pulses with the Bosch MTS5200 lab scope. With the crank position in one axis, and the exhaust transducers plotted against these, as well as a sensor placed on each coil pack to register TDC for a given cylinder I can often pinpoint this without pulling anything apart.
I use exhaust system pressure transducers to log and plot the pulses with the Bosch MTS5200 lab scope. With the crank position in one axis, and the exhaust transducers plotted against these, as well as a sensor placed on each coil pack to register TDC for a given cylinder I can often pinpoint this without pulling anything apart.
10-01-2016, 02:49 PM
#34
Pro
Thread Starter
Well, one can't rule out bore scoring, but like I said it is becoming the new IMSB for explaining any engine noises.
The engine is not misfiring. If the lifter is the problem it is very likely there is just some extra clearance at the bucket/lobe interface and this you hear as a tick. The engine won't misfire and except for the noise probably run ok.
Absence of misfires does not let bore scoring off the hook either.
One possible thing you can do is do a leak down test. What you want to do is at least test each of the cylinders on the side with the noise. Test each cylinder's leak down at TDC but also after rotating the engine ever so carefully to move the piston down the cylinder. What you are looking for is one cylinder which manifests bigger leak down numbers than the other 2 cylinders when tested in the same way. If there is bore scoring at some point the cylinder's leak down numbers should deteriorate as the piston is moved down the bore.
I forget if you collected an oil sample for analysis. If there is bore scoring the alum. PPM count can be high, with an elevated iron PPM as well. (The pistons are coated with iron along their skirts.)
The engine is not misfiring. If the lifter is the problem it is very likely there is just some extra clearance at the bucket/lobe interface and this you hear as a tick. The engine won't misfire and except for the noise probably run ok.
Absence of misfires does not let bore scoring off the hook either.
One possible thing you can do is do a leak down test. What you want to do is at least test each of the cylinders on the side with the noise. Test each cylinder's leak down at TDC but also after rotating the engine ever so carefully to move the piston down the cylinder. What you are looking for is one cylinder which manifests bigger leak down numbers than the other 2 cylinders when tested in the same way. If there is bore scoring at some point the cylinder's leak down numbers should deteriorate as the piston is moved down the bore.
I forget if you collected an oil sample for analysis. If there is bore scoring the alum. PPM count can be high, with an elevated iron PPM as well. (The pistons are coated with iron along their skirts.)
I'm hoping Jake is wrong! I'm going to loosen off the accessory belt this afternoon and just check water pump as someone mentioned this too can sound the same!
10-01-2016, 02:58 PM
#35
Former Vendor
Not yet, I'm waiting for tools from Pelican to get filter off. (Needed some other parts anyhow) and it takes a while to get past the pre trump border polar bears.
I'm hoping Jake is wrong! I'm going to loosen off the accessory belt this afternoon and just check water pump as someone mentioned this too can sound the same!
I'm hoping Jake is wrong! I'm going to loosen off the accessory belt this afternoon and just check water pump as someone mentioned this too can sound the same!
A leak down test won't show much, and often the BAD CYLINDER tests BETTER than the others. This is the case with both compression and leak down tests. Why?
Oil is what promotes cylinder/ ring sealing most. This issue almost always leads to some chamber contamination with engine oil. This helps to seal those rings up better..
You can learn more by looking at the exhaust bolts, or removing the header pipes and looking for oil. If you see this, then you have cylinders that have lost ring seal, and in some way have been compromised.
10-01-2016, 04:13 PM
#36
Pro
Thread Starter
I'm not seeing oil anywhere, not on the plugs, not on the headers, no obvious pressure in the dip stick (is this any indication?) Although I have not removed the headers. I have everything crossed for something not terminal.
10-01-2016, 04:15 PM
#37
Drifting
Fascinating thread. An object lesson in being humble about what I think I know.
There isn't much of what I think I know about engines that doesn't have a contradiction with the M96 !
There isn't much of what I think I know about engines that doesn't have a contradiction with the M96 !
10-01-2016, 04:16 PM
#38
Pro
Thread Starter
Lifters will create misfires.. These are often not recorded, or lead to a CEL, but with live data for individual cylinder misfires, it can often be seen, and even logged.
I use exhaust system pressure transducers to log and plot the pulses with the Bosch MTS5200 lab scope. With the crank position in one axis, and the exhaust transducers plotted against these, as well as a sensor placed on each coil pack to register TDC for a given cylinder I can often pinpoint this without pulling anything apart.
I use exhaust system pressure transducers to log and plot the pulses with the Bosch MTS5200 lab scope. With the crank position in one axis, and the exhaust transducers plotted against these, as well as a sensor placed on each coil pack to register TDC for a given cylinder I can often pinpoint this without pulling anything apart.
10-01-2016, 04:25 PM
#39
Drifting
10-01-2016, 04:35 PM
#42
Pro
Thread Starter
.....me too.
10-01-2016, 05:24 PM
#43
Pro
Thread Starter
Well seems slightly quieter without the accessory belt, but still a tap, odd, but it is still there.
Still seems to be coming from number 1 with stethoscope. You can really hear it in the header, as you move along header towards front of car gets less pronounced.
Still seems to be coming from number 1 with stethoscope. You can really hear it in the header, as you move along header towards front of car gets less pronounced.