Are there ANY group IV PAO oils I can buy in the US?
07-30-2016, 01:37 PM
#16
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07-30-2016, 01:44 PM
#17
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I would prefer an oil that delivers superior performance because of its oil not from "colloidal particles of graphit, PTFE, and MoS2".
07-30-2016, 01:53 PM
#18
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There's a number of group III and group IV blends. This trend started after the lawsuit in the US allowed mfg to claim hydrocracked mineral oil to be called 'synthetic'. I'm guess here, but since the cost of the hydrocracked mineral oil base is about 30-40% the mfg cost of the ester/PAO cost, that the blends are likely 80:20, or 90:10, or 99:1 mineral:PAO. Of course, no mfg will come out and tell you what the blend ratio is as it's proprietary, but the fact is, they are in business to make money, and PAO cost more to put in the bottle. Will some vendors trade on their name and reputation? Of course they will.
So I guess I would be ok with a blended oil, but only if I was able to know the ratio of mineral to PAO, and so far no one is talking about that. I remember well the early days of Mobil-1 and their scandal with the early true synthetic(man made, esters) and some of the issues it caused. Mainly in the auto world, it was swelling or leakage past seals and gaskets. So, it's pretty easy to tell when a 'synthetic' is actually a class III because it doesn't leak where a seal may be partially compromised.
Which brings up an interesting point, and here I will use the dreaded IMSB, so one may pass this by if they don't want to hear about it. I'm wondering -- because the word 'synthetic' in AU, and Europe must mean group IV oil and cannot mean group III, has there been any studies done on the IMSB failure rates between US and other countries where there may be much higher use of actual PAO ester type oils? All I ever heard about was the settlement with US owners but if there's a correlation with higher failure rates in the US, that might be interesting.
So I guess I would be ok with a blended oil, but only if I was able to know the ratio of mineral to PAO, and so far no one is talking about that. I remember well the early days of Mobil-1 and their scandal with the early true synthetic(man made, esters) and some of the issues it caused. Mainly in the auto world, it was swelling or leakage past seals and gaskets. So, it's pretty easy to tell when a 'synthetic' is actually a class III because it doesn't leak where a seal may be partially compromised.
Which brings up an interesting point, and here I will use the dreaded IMSB, so one may pass this by if they don't want to hear about it. I'm wondering -- because the word 'synthetic' in AU, and Europe must mean group IV oil and cannot mean group III, has there been any studies done on the IMSB failure rates between US and other countries where there may be much higher use of actual PAO ester type oils? All I ever heard about was the settlement with US owners but if there's a correlation with higher failure rates in the US, that might be interesting.
For a full synthetic oil one in which there is no petroleum base stock used -- even though this base stick is highly refined to the point is it more synthetic than natural -- I think you need to seek out a Group V oil. These will be ester based.
A problem is with ester based oils is with all this ester the oil can cause seals to swell. This can result in increased seal friction which could lead to premature seal failure and leaks down the road. Also, my understanding is once an ester based oil has been used in an engine it is not recommended one switch away from an ester based oil back to a PAO oil.
But if you want a fully synthetic oil (and likely an expensive oil) a Group V oil it is.
07-30-2016, 03:09 PM
#19
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While web site touts it is a "100% synthetic oil" it relies up "sub-micronoic colloidal particles" of "graphite, PTFE and MoS2" to deliver its claimed superior performance.
I would prefer an oil that delivers superior performance because of its oil not from "colloidal particles of graphit, PTFE, and MoS2".
I would prefer an oil that delivers superior performance because of its oil not from "colloidal particles of graphit, PTFE, and MoS2".
07-30-2016, 04:05 PM
#20
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So whats the end goal? im trying to understand, to find a group 4 oil that is fully synthetic so you can use it in your 911? Are Motul 8100 excess and joe gibbs DT40 not good enough for your requirements?
07-30-2016, 05:08 PM
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I've got a reply from a blender that has gobs of BS about phase separation of various additives from the PAO. So far, that hasn't really been a problem for the turbine world where the PAO oil is almost universal, including additives(however, the package is quite different). Anyway, they want to sell their specific additive blend because they think they have the best goo in the world. Maybe so, but it's not what I'm looking for. Plus, the additive package for PAO base oils is typically much smaller than for petro base oils(higher VI, means fewer viscosity modifiers, etc). I'm thinking that with the past 25 years of development, most of the big houses have the phase separation issue worked out. Also, I'm also fairly certain that the seals issue has been resolved or we would be hearing about all the leaky engines in EU/AU where PAO engine oil is common. We don't hear that, and all those OWT from the 70s aren't an issue anymore. It's like the problem with old carbs and Ethanol fuel. Sure, Ethanol is very bad for legacy fuel systems, but by 1998, things were pretty much wrapped up on that problem.
07-30-2016, 09:04 PM
#22
07-30-2016, 09:55 PM
#23
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Castrol syntec Edge is pretty much the same chemistry as Motul 8100 for ~$4.70/L in the 5 quart jug.
