Car is dead after one month, opinion needed
07-19-2013, 08:49 PM
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Car is dead after one month, opinion needed
hello all,
I have barely owned my car, picked it up June 1st and yesterday the engine died. The car was bought with 104,000 km, and now has 107,000 km ( I live in Canada). I know it sounds potentially possible right now but here is where it takes a turn that I would love to get your opinion on.
1. the car was inspected before purchase, it did not show any leaks and it drove like a dream
2. I bought the car and drove it for 4 weeks and it was amazing. In the fifth week I thought that I would like to keep this for years and did the IMS LN bearing replacement as a preventative.
3. When the repair started on Monday and the transmission came off, the shop informed me that the clutch was on its way out and that I should replace while the tranny is out which I did as well.
4. The bill came to 4,300 which I paid in full.
5. 2 days later (yesterday) I was driving to a client meeting and decided to stop quick before getting to the clients door. When I came back to start the car it made a ticking noise and did not start. I did not drive the car the day before as I was working from home so yesterday was the first real day driving it.
So just to sum all up:
- the repair was done from the 14th-15th of July (this week), picked up on the 16th and the engine blew on the 18th. The car was not driven on the 17th and it sat parked.
I thought it was the battery so I got a charge started from a guy in a truck and it gave me abit more juice from which the car started for a brief moment and then shook and started smelling.
When I went outside, there was a coolant spray out of the driver side exhaust tip and smoke as well. That is when I knew that I fried something. I had the car flat bedded to the shop that did my IMS. They started to open the engine to see what happened and they pulled the spark plugs and all had coolant on them except plug 5.
This just seems odd to me that it happened so fast after a large preventative repair. I asked them what this could be and he stated first that his job had nothing to do with what happened and that my car probably was weeping from the head gasket and I understand that this can not be detected on an inspection without removing engine components.
What I am left with no is a car that I paid 26k for and a 4k repair job. I have the car at another shop now and they are going to examine the engine to see if there is anything visible in the engine that would look like there was a fault from error rather than known issue. I am looking for a new engine but also looking to see if there is a potential case here for me to take the shop that performed the work to court to get a new engine.
I am new to the Porsche world, was a BMW guy for 15 yrs so I am still learning alot but wanted to get some good opinions to see if this could have happened or if I may have a case here. Thanks in advance to all that will take the time to read this and respond. My dream car has started to become a touch of a nightmare now...
I have barely owned my car, picked it up June 1st and yesterday the engine died. The car was bought with 104,000 km, and now has 107,000 km ( I live in Canada). I know it sounds potentially possible right now but here is where it takes a turn that I would love to get your opinion on.
1. the car was inspected before purchase, it did not show any leaks and it drove like a dream
2. I bought the car and drove it for 4 weeks and it was amazing. In the fifth week I thought that I would like to keep this for years and did the IMS LN bearing replacement as a preventative.
3. When the repair started on Monday and the transmission came off, the shop informed me that the clutch was on its way out and that I should replace while the tranny is out which I did as well.
4. The bill came to 4,300 which I paid in full.
5. 2 days later (yesterday) I was driving to a client meeting and decided to stop quick before getting to the clients door. When I came back to start the car it made a ticking noise and did not start. I did not drive the car the day before as I was working from home so yesterday was the first real day driving it.
So just to sum all up:
- the repair was done from the 14th-15th of July (this week), picked up on the 16th and the engine blew on the 18th. The car was not driven on the 17th and it sat parked.
I thought it was the battery so I got a charge started from a guy in a truck and it gave me abit more juice from which the car started for a brief moment and then shook and started smelling.
When I went outside, there was a coolant spray out of the driver side exhaust tip and smoke as well. That is when I knew that I fried something. I had the car flat bedded to the shop that did my IMS. They started to open the engine to see what happened and they pulled the spark plugs and all had coolant on them except plug 5.
This just seems odd to me that it happened so fast after a large preventative repair. I asked them what this could be and he stated first that his job had nothing to do with what happened and that my car probably was weeping from the head gasket and I understand that this can not be detected on an inspection without removing engine components.
What I am left with no is a car that I paid 26k for and a 4k repair job. I have the car at another shop now and they are going to examine the engine to see if there is anything visible in the engine that would look like there was a fault from error rather than known issue. I am looking for a new engine but also looking to see if there is a potential case here for me to take the shop that performed the work to court to get a new engine.
I am new to the Porsche world, was a BMW guy for 15 yrs so I am still learning alot but wanted to get some good opinions to see if this could have happened or if I may have a case here. Thanks in advance to all that will take the time to read this and respond. My dream car has started to become a touch of a nightmare now...
Last edited by Razkal; 07-19-2013 at 09:52 PM.
07-19-2013, 09:22 PM
#2
Race Director
Whatever the cause, this really sucks, and I'm sorry to hear about your trouble.
It's also worth pointing out that 2 days is a significant amount of the total time you've owned it... maybe it was a ticking time bomb, regardless of what your shop did. As Flat 6 often states, there are MANY modes of failure for the M96 motor.
If you think the shop's work is at fault, you need to get another shop to start the teardown and document what they find.
Keep in mind that if you accuse your shop of some misdeed and it turns out to be coincidental, you will have burned whatever goodwill you might have had with them, whereas keeping things cordial until you know what's up might result in a discount since you just plowed a bunch of money into the car.
In my opinion, it's premature to be looking for a new engine before you know what's wrong with the one you already own.
It's also worth pointing out that 2 days is a significant amount of the total time you've owned it... maybe it was a ticking time bomb, regardless of what your shop did. As Flat 6 often states, there are MANY modes of failure for the M96 motor.
If you think the shop's work is at fault, you need to get another shop to start the teardown and document what they find.
Keep in mind that if you accuse your shop of some misdeed and it turns out to be coincidental, you will have burned whatever goodwill you might have had with them, whereas keeping things cordial until you know what's up might result in a discount since you just plowed a bunch of money into the car.
In my opinion, it's premature to be looking for a new engine before you know what's wrong with the one you already own.
07-19-2013, 09:36 PM
#3
Race Director
Sorry to read about your engine's demise. Horrible news.
I really do not think you have a case against the shop that did the work
You got the car back and drove it 4 weeks.
If the work/repairs that were done were the cause of the massive coolant leak into the engine this would have happened much sooner.
I'm going to have to declare it a coincidence. (All in my humble opinion of course.)
Now it could be there was some head gasket leaking going on for a while.
But you'll never know now.
A plug change might have turned up one or more plugs with clean tips that would have hinted at coolant leaking into the cylinders.
The oil had it been analyzed might have found anti-freeze chemicals in the oil.
The coolant level could have been dropped too.
You know now that I think about it that coolant is in both cylinder banks... that doesn't read like a head gasket failure. That reads more like an AOS failure that routed coolant to the intake.
If I'm right the engine might be salvageable. Before you trash the engine and order a new one you might explore this see if it the AOS can be made to take the rap.
An engine that has suffered from this could very well be brought back to life. It won't be cheap, but it will be a heck of a lot cheaper than replacing the engine.
I really do not think you have a case against the shop that did the work
You got the car back and drove it 4 weeks.
If the work/repairs that were done were the cause of the massive coolant leak into the engine this would have happened much sooner.
I'm going to have to declare it a coincidence. (All in my humble opinion of course.)
Now it could be there was some head gasket leaking going on for a while.
But you'll never know now.
A plug change might have turned up one or more plugs with clean tips that would have hinted at coolant leaking into the cylinders.
The oil had it been analyzed might have found anti-freeze chemicals in the oil.
The coolant level could have been dropped too.
You know now that I think about it that coolant is in both cylinder banks... that doesn't read like a head gasket failure. That reads more like an AOS failure that routed coolant to the intake.
If I'm right the engine might be salvageable. Before you trash the engine and order a new one you might explore this see if it the AOS can be made to take the rap.
An engine that has suffered from this could very well be brought back to life. It won't be cheap, but it will be a heck of a lot cheaper than replacing the engine.
07-19-2013, 09:39 PM
#4
Captain Obvious
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The shop is right, the two are unrelated. BUT make sure whoever insoect the engine, they have a really close look at the Air Oil Seperator. It has coolant going throgh it and is very possible that if the seperator fails, it can dump coolant into the intake manifold. This would then get sucked in by the cylinders and then shot out through the tailpipe.
07-19-2013, 09:43 PM
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Sorry to read about your engine's demise. Horrible news.
I really do not think you have a case against the shop that did the work
You got the car back and drove it 4 weeks.
If the work/repairs that were done were the cause of the massive coolant leak into the engine this would have happened much sooner.
I'm going to have to declare it a coincidence. (All in my humble opinion of course.)
Now it could be there was some head gasket leaking going on for a while.
But you'll never know now.
A plug change might have turned up one or more plugs with clean tips that would have hinted at coolant leaking into the cylinders.
The oil had it been analyzed might have found anti-freeze chemicals in the oil.
The coolant level could have been dropped too.
You know now that I think about it that coolant is in both cylinder banks... that doesn't read like a head gasket failure. That reads more like an AOS failure that routed coolant to the intake.
If I'm right the engine might be salvageable. Before you trash the engine and order a new one you might explore this see if it the AOS can be made to take the rap.
An engine that has suffered from this could very well be brought back to life. It won't be cheap, but it will be a heck of a lot cheaper than replacing the engine.
I really do not think you have a case against the shop that did the work
You got the car back and drove it 4 weeks.
If the work/repairs that were done were the cause of the massive coolant leak into the engine this would have happened much sooner.
I'm going to have to declare it a coincidence. (All in my humble opinion of course.)
Now it could be there was some head gasket leaking going on for a while.
But you'll never know now.
A plug change might have turned up one or more plugs with clean tips that would have hinted at coolant leaking into the cylinders.
The oil had it been analyzed might have found anti-freeze chemicals in the oil.
The coolant level could have been dropped too.
You know now that I think about it that coolant is in both cylinder banks... that doesn't read like a head gasket failure. That reads more like an AOS failure that routed coolant to the intake.
If I'm right the engine might be salvageable. Before you trash the engine and order a new one you might explore this see if it the AOS can be made to take the rap.
An engine that has suffered from this could very well be brought back to life. It won't be cheap, but it will be a heck of a lot cheaper than replacing the engine.
I wanted to just let you that the repair was done from the 14th-15th of July (this week), picked up on the 16th and the engine blew on the 18th. The car was not driven on the 17th and it sat parked.
I did own my car for 4 weeks and decided to do the IMS job this week.
Thank you all for your insight, it is much appreciated.
07-19-2013, 10:26 PM
#6
First off, sorry to hear about your troubles.
An AOS problem is fixable. What year is the car? If an early 996, it could be a cracked head - also fixable. Don't assume the worst just yet. Is the shop that did the work fluent in Porsche? If not, take it to an expert.
An AOS problem is fixable. What year is the car? If an early 996, it could be a cracked head - also fixable. Don't assume the worst just yet. Is the shop that did the work fluent in Porsche? If not, take it to an expert.
Last edited by wyovino; 07-19-2013 at 11:03 PM.
07-19-2013, 11:39 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
What year?
When you say they pulled the spark plugs and all had coolant in them except #5 do you mean 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 or just the right side of the engine, 4 & 6? Exhaust crosses over so drivers side smoke comes from passengers side of the engine.
+1 for an AOS. Hard to see where else antifreeze could get to both sides at once if that is the case.
Both left and right heads blew at the same time? If so suspect skipped timing. If just one side could be cracked head. Not uncommon on 3.4 LTR engines.
Was the car stored outside in the rain at the shop? Was it raining when you stopped for ?? on the way to the client? If so and the front drains were clogged it could have ingested water that would hurt the engine.
Cracked head can be repaired
See this thread by Dharn55
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ad-repair.html
When you say they pulled the spark plugs and all had coolant in them except #5 do you mean 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 or just the right side of the engine, 4 & 6? Exhaust crosses over so drivers side smoke comes from passengers side of the engine.
+1 for an AOS. Hard to see where else antifreeze could get to both sides at once if that is the case.
Both left and right heads blew at the same time? If so suspect skipped timing. If just one side could be cracked head. Not uncommon on 3.4 LTR engines.
Was the car stored outside in the rain at the shop? Was it raining when you stopped for ?? on the way to the client? If so and the front drains were clogged it could have ingested water that would hurt the engine.
Cracked head can be repaired
See this thread by Dharn55
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ad-repair.html
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07-20-2013, 12:20 AM
#8
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My car is a 2002 C4 cabrio. The car was not in the rain, more so the week has been very hot and humid 33C. This input from all of you has been great so far as it leads me to believe there is a slim chance that that it may not be the entire engine. I will know this week.
07-20-2013, 02:10 AM
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I would have it sent it back to the shop that did the maintenance repairs. You only had it back for 2 days and the motor failed...sounds like a mistake was done by the shop. If so then they should be accountable for the labor and cost of whatever needs to be fixed.
07-20-2013, 09:27 AM
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The problem as I see it is you had it bump started. If there was coolant in the cylinders you very well may have bent a connecting rod (or two, or more).
As a note, always let the clutch out slowly when bump starting it while being pulled. If there is a condition like this, it will lock up the wheels before doing damage to the engine. Ask me how I know this......
As a note, always let the clutch out slowly when bump starting it while being pulled. If there is a condition like this, it will lock up the wheels before doing damage to the engine. Ask me how I know this......
07-20-2013, 02:09 PM
#14
Race Director
Hello again,
I wanted to just let you that the repair was done from the 14th-15th of July (this week), picked up on the 16th and the engine blew on the 18th. The car was not driven on the 17th and it sat parked.
I did own my car for 4 weeks and decided to do the IMS job this week.
Thank you all for your insight, it is much appreciated.
I wanted to just let you that the repair was done from the 14th-15th of July (this week), picked up on the 16th and the engine blew on the 18th. The car was not driven on the 17th and it sat parked.
I did own my car for 4 weeks and decided to do the IMS job this week.
Thank you all for your insight, it is much appreciated.
Still, AFAIK the cooling system is not really messed with when the IMSB upgrade is done.
Some coolant hoses may be disconnected and clamped to prevent coolant loss when the transmission is removed to get at the IMSB.
That is I'm not sure in the case of the 996. My 996 Turbo is in the shop for an RMS leak which means the transmission has to come out and I looked the car over (from underneath as the car was on the lift) and noticed some coolant hoses were clamped off in preparation to removing the transmission but if this is required for the 996 NA cars I can't say.
Regardless, I can't think of anything arising from an IMSB upgrade that could result in a compromised cooling system that would flood the cylinders with coolant.
Generally a head gasket leak/failure is localized to one cylinder, two at the most if the gasket between cylinders fail.
But to have all 6 or even 5 cylinders with coolant suggests the coolant came in via the intake and this could point to the AOS as it does have coolant flowing through it and a failure of the AOS could have coolant getting into the intake via the same route the crankcase vapors are routed to the intake manifold.
Really, the failure looks to be nothing more than a horrible coincidence -- not that that makes the event any less painful -- but I'll think about this some more.
07-20-2013, 03:11 PM
#15
Yikes stories like this make me cringe since I am in the market for a 996. But we all know that sports cars all some sort of issues. JR did a post recently on how some shops are not really doing a job on the IMS correctly? I would be so mad if I spent $26k and my engine blew