My long, sad 996 story - must read :)
03-09-2011, 06:43 PM
#31
AutoX
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Sunny So Cal
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Update. The management at the dealer is actually being good about it. The car is at a Porsche shop right now - they took it there on a flatbed. I am pretty sure they will find big engine damage due to IMS bearing failure. I am in contact directly with that shop, and they will give me the straight truth about the car if I ask.
I expressed to the dealer my concern that any repair is done in total accordance with Porsche standards. No cost cutting.
I also asked for the option to have my Mazda back. They seemed receptive to that in case I am not happy with the status of the 911.
I also mentioned that I didn't want to sue them but I would not hesitate to do so, if I am not treated fairly. And I do have a lawyer in mind who I am sure would win this case.
If in fact the Porsche gets a new engine and everything is on the up and up, I may still take it. Other than the engine failure the car is immaculate and unmolested.
I expressed to the dealer my concern that any repair is done in total accordance with Porsche standards. No cost cutting.
I also asked for the option to have my Mazda back. They seemed receptive to that in case I am not happy with the status of the 911.
I also mentioned that I didn't want to sue them but I would not hesitate to do so, if I am not treated fairly. And I do have a lawyer in mind who I am sure would win this case.
If in fact the Porsche gets a new engine and everything is on the up and up, I may still take it. Other than the engine failure the car is immaculate and unmolested.
03-09-2011, 07:16 PM
#32
Pro
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Suburban Chicago
Posts: 654
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You keep saying that the car is immaculate and unmolested. HOW DO YOU KNOW? This is your first Porsche, you bought it without a PPI, and are very lucky that it blew up in the dealer's parking lot.
As has been mentioned, this is not what is normally considered a low mileage car. But, it's not a high mileage example either. 6,500 miles a year is pretty typical for these cars. That being said, be SURE that while the dealer has the car, they do a PPI at YOUR expense. Now is the time to find out EVERYTHING that is wrong with the car. While it is at the Pcar dealer, you can then negotiate with the Nissan dealer for any other repairs that might be needed. Also be sure that you get at least 2 full remote control keys. Those suckers are $300+ each. Tell them that you want the valet key as well.
Explain to the Porsche dealer that you are interested in keeping this car, especially with a new engine, but that you want to make sure that there aren't any other time bombs waiting for you. This is your one chance to make this purchase a reasonably good deal. The PPI should cost you maybe $200. Normally it would be more, but they don't need to inspect the engine!! So, it should be cheaper.
This might end up being a good deal. Just don't get emotionally attached to this car, this deal, or the fact that you may end up with a new or reman engine. If you do get emotionally attached -- -- -- you have the potential of making a BIG mistake. You need to be very pragmatic about this car and the purchase. The fact that the car is a single owner doesn't necessarily mean that it was treated tenderly. Does the PO have all of the service records for you to examine? Maybe that isn't so important with a new engine, but . . . . . . . . . I wouldn't leave anything to chance.
Also, with them sending the car to a Porsche dealer to take care of the issues, I don't know that I would threaten a lawsuit with them. Things seem to be above board. Hold that card in your lap. You can always play it later. I would deal with them positively as long as it's going well, and you are in communication with the Porsche dealer.
larry
As has been mentioned, this is not what is normally considered a low mileage car. But, it's not a high mileage example either. 6,500 miles a year is pretty typical for these cars. That being said, be SURE that while the dealer has the car, they do a PPI at YOUR expense. Now is the time to find out EVERYTHING that is wrong with the car. While it is at the Pcar dealer, you can then negotiate with the Nissan dealer for any other repairs that might be needed. Also be sure that you get at least 2 full remote control keys. Those suckers are $300+ each. Tell them that you want the valet key as well.
Explain to the Porsche dealer that you are interested in keeping this car, especially with a new engine, but that you want to make sure that there aren't any other time bombs waiting for you. This is your one chance to make this purchase a reasonably good deal. The PPI should cost you maybe $200. Normally it would be more, but they don't need to inspect the engine!! So, it should be cheaper.
This might end up being a good deal. Just don't get emotionally attached to this car, this deal, or the fact that you may end up with a new or reman engine. If you do get emotionally attached -- -- -- you have the potential of making a BIG mistake. You need to be very pragmatic about this car and the purchase. The fact that the car is a single owner doesn't necessarily mean that it was treated tenderly. Does the PO have all of the service records for you to examine? Maybe that isn't so important with a new engine, but . . . . . . . . . I wouldn't leave anything to chance.
Also, with them sending the car to a Porsche dealer to take care of the issues, I don't know that I would threaten a lawsuit with them. Things seem to be above board. Hold that card in your lap. You can always play it later. I would deal with them positively as long as it's going well, and you are in communication with the Porsche dealer.
larry
03-09-2011, 11:14 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
03-10-2011, 01:11 AM
#36
Being pretty direct, BUT IMHO............GET THE MIATA BACK AND KEEP IT.......A REAL RELIABLE CAR......owned two of them in the past along with the Porsches - 993 and 996 - kept 993 with a better IMS system...
1999-2009 Porsche 911/Boxster purchase is like gambling or Russian roulette due to the IMS issue that was never properly addressed by Porsche......other than replacing the engines under warranty, etc to sweep it under the rug ( German culture - "they might not be right, but they are never wrong" - my experience with working 12 years with 2 different German companies - tough to get them to admit a mistake, especially in engineering issues- no solution offered in such cases as it admits a mistake, thus swept under the rug and also no stats published on likeliness of IMS failure/occurrence which is smart PR).....
Wonder why they don't own up and replace the IMS bearing free of charge under warranty on all 996s sold to admit the issue? THEY WOULD HAVE NO TIME FOR SERVICING ANY OTHER CAR AND THE EXORBITANT COST, as they have moved on to the 997.2 with a better engine design and stuck the 996/Boxster owners with the issue. no IMS with the 997.2, no issue...although there may be other issues as with almost any car.......
GET THE MIATA BACK......NO DOUBT THE BEST MOVE IN THIS CASE.......buy a 911 in the future....go with used 997.2 version............they will be reasonably priced in a few years......good luck and hope it works out for you..........you were taken advantage of, when you eyes lit up over the P-car.....totally understood......
1999-2009 Porsche 911/Boxster purchase is like gambling or Russian roulette due to the IMS issue that was never properly addressed by Porsche......other than replacing the engines under warranty, etc to sweep it under the rug ( German culture - "they might not be right, but they are never wrong" - my experience with working 12 years with 2 different German companies - tough to get them to admit a mistake, especially in engineering issues- no solution offered in such cases as it admits a mistake, thus swept under the rug and also no stats published on likeliness of IMS failure/occurrence which is smart PR).....
Wonder why they don't own up and replace the IMS bearing free of charge under warranty on all 996s sold to admit the issue? THEY WOULD HAVE NO TIME FOR SERVICING ANY OTHER CAR AND THE EXORBITANT COST, as they have moved on to the 997.2 with a better engine design and stuck the 996/Boxster owners with the issue. no IMS with the 997.2, no issue...although there may be other issues as with almost any car.......
GET THE MIATA BACK......NO DOUBT THE BEST MOVE IN THIS CASE.......buy a 911 in the future....go with used 997.2 version............they will be reasonably priced in a few years......good luck and hope it works out for you..........you were taken advantage of, when you eyes lit up over the P-car.....totally understood......
03-10-2011, 01:58 AM
#37
Rennlist Member
the ranter background
15 years with 1995 993 - 48,000 miles to date - no issues to date
6 years with 2003 C4S - 70,000 miles DD - $ 12,000 plus in warranty work, sold car when warranty expired - great looking and driving car when not in shop....lots of experience in speaking with service techs and Porsche US and Germany....
Conclusion: Qualified to speak about the 996......however blunt....all one big happy Porsche family here, even with our warts......
6 years with 2003 C4S - 70,000 miles DD - $ 12,000 plus in warranty work, sold car when warranty expired - great looking and driving car when not in shop....lots of experience in speaking with service techs and Porsche US and Germany....
Conclusion: Qualified to speak about the 996......however blunt....all one big happy Porsche family here, even with our warts......
03-10-2011, 09:29 AM
#39
I agree with abiazis assessment of the '03 C4s, "great looking and driving car when not in shop". I wish had the foresight to sell mine before the warranty expired.
The following is the list of things of repairs that I consider beyond normal wear and tear on my '03 C4s; 3 RMS seals replaced under warranty (at: 4,300 mi, 11,850 and 16,250), front differential replaced at 42,502 miles (not warranty, cost $4k), cracked engine cylinder liner at 45,000 miles.
Deciding what to do with it now.
The following is the list of things of repairs that I consider beyond normal wear and tear on my '03 C4s; 3 RMS seals replaced under warranty (at: 4,300 mi, 11,850 and 16,250), front differential replaced at 42,502 miles (not warranty, cost $4k), cracked engine cylinder liner at 45,000 miles.
Deciding what to do with it now.
03-10-2011, 09:39 AM
#40
Ironman 140.6
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
15 years with 1995 993 - 48,000 miles to date - no issues to date
6 years with 2003 C4S - 70,000 miles DD - $ 12,000 plus in warranty work, sold car when warranty expired - great looking and driving car when not in shop....lots of experience in speaking with service techs and Porsche US and Germany....
Conclusion: Qualified to speak about the 996......however blunt....all one big happy Porsche family here, even with our warts......
6 years with 2003 C4S - 70,000 miles DD - $ 12,000 plus in warranty work, sold car when warranty expired - great looking and driving car when not in shop....lots of experience in speaking with service techs and Porsche US and Germany....
Conclusion: Qualified to speak about the 996......however blunt....all one big happy Porsche family here, even with our warts......
03-10-2011, 11:23 AM
#41
Burning Brakes
Sounds like you want a 996. I had the miata and a S2000, now on my second 996. If there is no collision damage and you can get a new or rebuilt engine I would go for it. If they try and swap engine for a used one I would decline.
03-10-2011, 02:06 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
list of parts/repairs - C4S - $ 12,000 total
To Dennis Hiip's question....my 2003 C4S 996 repairs/parts under warranty before I unloaded the car, when the warranty expired. is listed below....
$ 12,000 was estimate dealer told me for parts and labor for the repairs under warranty - my rep had actually kept a running total since I was a "repeat" warranty customer, in addition to regular maintenance on my 2 Porsches at the time....
I knew all the mechanics by name at the dealer, the GM, salesman by name, etc....and all 4 service advisors since they saw me so much....monthly it seems..
Also this same Porsche dealer low-balled me on a potential trade-in on a new 2010 Turbo, so I went with Mercedes dealer on CPO Mercedes SL 65 AMG that offered me $ 12K more for the C4S car in June 2009 - $ 40,000......versus Porsche offer of $ 28,000 on a Porsche Turbo purchase....
(I also went to another Porsche dealer in Atlanta with no history with them and they offered the same $ 28K trade-in amount)
The parts replaced list posted below - 70,000 miles on the car when traded.....
(1 track event at Summit Point) - mostly highway driving on the car
3 O2 sensors - replaced
3 catalytic converters - replaced
Oil filler pipe - cheap plastic replaced
Oil separator tube - replaced
3 RMS seals - leaked
2 IMS seals - leaked
1 IMS flange - replaced
1 clutch assembly, throwout bearing went bad
2 horns - stopped working - water damage?
Insulation material rear bumper - rattled
Cracked ignition coils - heat?
Left front headlight assembly - stopped working - gratis repair
Water pump - failed
C4S driver's side doorsill emblem insert - cheap plastic
One cup holder assembly - cheap plastic broke
Oil pressure gauge - faulty replaced
Heck.....the dealer may have been low in their estimate now that I list it.....
My 993 at 48K still has original brakes and no warranty work other than recall for wiring harness and convertible top latches.....
996
$ 12,000 was estimate dealer told me for parts and labor for the repairs under warranty - my rep had actually kept a running total since I was a "repeat" warranty customer, in addition to regular maintenance on my 2 Porsches at the time....
I knew all the mechanics by name at the dealer, the GM, salesman by name, etc....and all 4 service advisors since they saw me so much....monthly it seems..
Also this same Porsche dealer low-balled me on a potential trade-in on a new 2010 Turbo, so I went with Mercedes dealer on CPO Mercedes SL 65 AMG that offered me $ 12K more for the C4S car in June 2009 - $ 40,000......versus Porsche offer of $ 28,000 on a Porsche Turbo purchase....
(I also went to another Porsche dealer in Atlanta with no history with them and they offered the same $ 28K trade-in amount)
The parts replaced list posted below - 70,000 miles on the car when traded.....
(1 track event at Summit Point) - mostly highway driving on the car
3 O2 sensors - replaced
3 catalytic converters - replaced
Oil filler pipe - cheap plastic replaced
Oil separator tube - replaced
3 RMS seals - leaked
2 IMS seals - leaked
1 IMS flange - replaced
1 clutch assembly, throwout bearing went bad
2 horns - stopped working - water damage?
Insulation material rear bumper - rattled
Cracked ignition coils - heat?
Left front headlight assembly - stopped working - gratis repair
Water pump - failed
C4S driver's side doorsill emblem insert - cheap plastic
One cup holder assembly - cheap plastic broke
Oil pressure gauge - faulty replaced
Heck.....the dealer may have been low in their estimate now that I list it.....
My 993 at 48K still has original brakes and no warranty work other than recall for wiring harness and convertible top latches.....
996
03-10-2011, 02:10 PM
#43
Yikes! 
To Dennis Hiip's question....my 2003 C4S 996 repairs/parts under warranty before I unloaded the car, when the warranty expired. is listed below....
$ 12,000 was estimate dealer told me for parts and labor for the repairs under warranty - my rep had actually kept a running total since I was a "repeat" warranty customer, in addition to regular maintenance on my 2 Porsches at the time....
I knew all the mechanics by name at the dealer, the GM, salesman by name, etc....and all 4 service advisors since they saw me so much....monthly it seems..
Also this same Porsche dealer low-balled me on a potential trade-in on a new 2010 Turbo, so I went with Mercedes dealer on CPO Mercedes SL 65 AMG that offered me $ 12K more for the C4S car in June 2009 - $ 40,000......versus Porsche offer of $ 28,000 on a Porsche Turbo purchase....
(I also went to another Porsche dealer in Atlanta with no history with them and they offered the same $ 28K trade-in amount)
The parts replaced list posted below - 70,000 miles on the car when traded.....
(1 track event at Summit Point) - mostly highway driving on the car
3 O2 sensors - replaced
3 catalytic converters - replaced
Oil filler pipe - cheap plastic replaced
Oil separator tube - replaced
3 RMS seals - leaked
2 IMS seals - leaked
1 IMS flange - replaced
1 clutch assembly, throwout bearing went bad
2 horns - stopped working - water damage?
Insulation material rear bumper - rattled
Cracked ignition coils - heat?
Left front headlight assembly - stopped working - gratis repair
Water pump - failed
C4S driver's side doorsill emblem insert - cheap plastic
One cup holder assembly - cheap plastic broke
Oil pressure gauge - faulty replaced
Heck.....the dealer may have been low in their estimate now that I list it.....
My 993 at 48K still has original brakes and no warranty work other than recall for wiring harness and convertible top latches.....
996
$ 12,000 was estimate dealer told me for parts and labor for the repairs under warranty - my rep had actually kept a running total since I was a "repeat" warranty customer, in addition to regular maintenance on my 2 Porsches at the time....
I knew all the mechanics by name at the dealer, the GM, salesman by name, etc....and all 4 service advisors since they saw me so much....monthly it seems..
Also this same Porsche dealer low-balled me on a potential trade-in on a new 2010 Turbo, so I went with Mercedes dealer on CPO Mercedes SL 65 AMG that offered me $ 12K more for the C4S car in June 2009 - $ 40,000......versus Porsche offer of $ 28,000 on a Porsche Turbo purchase....
(I also went to another Porsche dealer in Atlanta with no history with them and they offered the same $ 28K trade-in amount)
The parts replaced list posted below - 70,000 miles on the car when traded.....
(1 track event at Summit Point) - mostly highway driving on the car
3 O2 sensors - replaced
3 catalytic converters - replaced
Oil filler pipe - cheap plastic replaced
Oil separator tube - replaced
3 RMS seals - leaked
2 IMS seals - leaked
1 IMS flange - replaced
1 clutch assembly, throwout bearing went bad
2 horns - stopped working - water damage?
Insulation material rear bumper - rattled
Cracked ignition coils - heat?
Left front headlight assembly - stopped working - gratis repair
Water pump - failed
C4S driver's side doorsill emblem insert - cheap plastic
One cup holder assembly - cheap plastic broke
Oil pressure gauge - faulty replaced
Heck.....the dealer may have been low in their estimate now that I list it.....
My 993 at 48K still has original brakes and no warranty work other than recall for wiring harness and convertible top latches.....
996
03-10-2011, 02:11 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
To Ray S......relatively speaking my 993 versus my 996 repairs comparison....not anyone else's car......and Porsche ownership experience
Acknowledge that 993 has its own issues, as any car does, but in my experience and IMHO not as severe as 996s.............cheers.......
Acknowledge that 993 has its own issues, as any car does, but in my experience and IMHO not as severe as 996s.............cheers.......
03-10-2011, 02:41 PM
#45
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 248
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
abiazis, Thanks. That helps me with my anxiety since those repairs are fixable on my 2003 with the help of my mechanic friend. What worries me most is engine failure and I'm going to do the preventative parts replacements: IMS, AOS, and water pump to alleviate my insanity. That headlight assembly is >$2K