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Old 07-30-2010, 08:31 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by BruceP View Post
In any debate, the amount of rhetorical heat is always inversely proportional to the amount of tangible evidence available.

I think you need to use something that is light enough to lubricate the valve gear quickly on startup for the conditions you drive in, and you need to change it a lot more often than Porsche recommends. After that, if it's on the list, I really don't think it matters what you use.
ding, ding, ding......we have a winner! And Bruce, you know I can appreciate your first sentence

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Originally Posted by 2300cc View Post
I'm a little confused the owners manual does not even mention 0W-40 I was going to use 10W-40 when I do my oil changes would this be wrong? Its one of the oils listed in the owners manual.
Technology improves, science improves, understanding improves. Empiricism is the name of the game When PAG published superceded lists, it's just that....a list that TAKE THE PLACE of what is in your manual.




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Old 07-30-2010, 08:46 AM   #47
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Attention All,

Please note the announcement at the top of the forum page. Mobil 1 is now a sponsor of Rennlist. There will be no further talk of alternatives.

Mmmm. Mobil 1.
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honestly dont even wanna hang out here anymore, banter is one thing... but the cayenne forum is out of hand.. even the moderator doesnt take anything seriously..

u guys should read the 997 forum maybe, even the off topic forum stays more on topic.

just embarassing,
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Old 07-30-2010, 09:50 AM   #48
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So let me get this right....based on recent(warnings) postings, my water pumper needs IMS upgrade, new water pump, coolant tank, a different motor oil, AOS, coil packs, RMS...wait a minute, it appears to be running just fine.
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Old 07-30-2010, 10:14 AM   #49
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ATTA BOY, Steve....

My 99' never gave me a lick of trouble. Oil, tires, and mods was all I ever did. Its funny (sad) that when I drive any car I dont think about these things, but in a P-car its one of the things that's right there, all the time..... listening for every little noise - buy some ear plugs or turn up the radio


then get that IMSR, water pump, aos.....
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Old 07-30-2010, 10:19 AM   #50
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Dark Helmet, "at operating temperature", any oil with a 40 at the end of its rating has the same viscosity. It can't be "too thin". That oil has a 0 viscosity when cold, and a 40 viscosity when warm. If you want a heavier oil at operating temperatures, it's the second number you need to think about, not the first.
You're missing the key component in the discussion: viscosity improvers.

There is no such thing as 0W40 oil. As of a few years ago, there was no such thing as 5W40 either. Manufacturers start with a thinner base oil and add viscosity improvers to bolster the top end so it holds together--sort of--like a 40 weight oil when hot.

So let's say, hypothetically, that Mobil starts with 0W20 oil and adds some viscosity improvers to get it up to 0W40. But, since it's a cheap oil and they have to make money even on the Mobil1 sold at Wal-mart, only of a quality and quantity that can support that cost model.

This oil then degrades over time in the harsh environment of a high performance engine. The viscosity improvers wear out. And you're left with whatever they started with.

I don't fear that Mobil1 0W40 will let me down right after an oil change. I do worry at what point it may let me down, so I just avoid it.
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Old 07-30-2010, 11:26 AM   #51
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I don't mean to sound like a *****, but I'd need some bona fides before I could buy your argument. It's just illogical that one brand of oil could be so uniquely bad, and yet be supported so strongly by Porsche. Sure, money changes hands for that. But if it was only about money, I'm sure 911s would be rolling out of the factory on Firestones. The whole debate smacks of superstition. As a veteran observer of consumer behavior, I'd go so far as to say that people are suspicious of Mobil 1 specifically because Porsche recommends it. The fact is, in every oil debate I've ever seen on here, nobody has been able to produce an example of an oil viscosity-related engine failure or any other example of being "let down" by their oil.

No such thing as 5W40 a few years ago? I dunno. Maybe. But there was such a thing as 5W30 when I was a pump jockey in the 1970s. This doesn't feel like a new or risky concept to me so, here again, I feel the need for more grounded argument. Anyway, even if your characterization is accurate, it still leaves the driver with a choice to make (as all engineering decisions do): Lubricate high tolerance parts sooner and compromise protection at the limit, or choose the oil that maximizes protection at the limit and accept the cost of repeated unlubricated startups to that valve gear. There is likely no one oil that does both jobs perfectly.

I choose the first, and then mitigate against the risk by changing my oil more often. Like most forms of elephant repellent, it seems to work.
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Old 07-30-2010, 11:30 AM   #52
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I just put Mobil 1 0W40 a few weeks ago.... I will continue using this I guess since there is no real threat. Personally I consider this to be good oil when I did a comparison on my previous car and the competition was Castrol Syntec 5W30 (On a 330ci). The Mobil 1 ran way better!

If somone could give me some sort of semi concrete evidence that better oil exists specifically for my 3.6, I'll take that info and put it to good use on my next oil change.
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Old 07-30-2010, 11:46 AM   #53
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No such thing as 5W40 a few years ago? I dunno. Maybe. But there was such a thing as 5W30 when I was a pump jockey in the 1970s.
There is no 0W40 WITHOUT viscosity improvers. A decade ago there was no 5W40 without viscosity improvers. Now, some of the very high end 5W40s (Motul 300V, perhaps redline) use no viscosity improvers.

It's not Mobil1 that's uniquely bad. It's just a matter of quality vs. price. It would be silly to think that a $5 liter of M1 is just as good as a $15 liter of racing oil.
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Old 07-30-2010, 12:01 PM   #54
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My question is.....what oil is readily available can I use besides 0-40 mobil 1???? I gotta be able to pick it up at advanced auto or autozone ect. Im not mail ordering away for oil.....something I refuse to do. My saab also calls for 0-40 mobil 1. So as a matter of convience I ussually just buy it when I see it avail.
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Old 07-30-2010, 12:14 PM   #55
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I don't mean to sound like a *****, but I'd need some bona fides before I could buy your argument. It's just illogical that one brand of oil could be so uniquely bad, and yet be supported so strongly by Porsche. Sure, money changes hands for that. But if it was only about money, I'm sure 911s would be rolling out of the factory on Firestones. The whole debate smacks of superstition. As a veteran observer of consumer behavior, I'd go so far as to say that people are suspicious of Mobil 1 specifically because Porsche recommends it. The fact is, in every oil debate I've ever seen on here, nobody has been able to produce an example of an oil viscosity-related engine failure or any other example of being "let down" by their oil.

No such thing as 5W40 a few years ago? I dunno. Maybe. But there was such a thing as 5W30 when I was a pump jockey in the 1970s. This doesn't feel like a new or risky concept to me so, here again, I feel the need for more grounded argument. Anyway, even if your characterization is accurate, it still leaves the driver with a choice to make (as all engineering decisions do): Lubricate high tolerance parts sooner and compromise protection at the limit, or choose the oil that maximizes protection at the limit and accept the cost of repeated unlubricated startups to that valve gear. There is likely no one oil that does both jobs perfectly.

I choose the first, and then mitigate against the risk by changing my oil more often. Like most forms of elephant repellent, it seems to work.
Well, there is a precedence for this behavior on Porsche's part. Back in the mid-70's or mid-80s Porsche got into the airplane engine business with its air-cooled sixes.

The recommended oil was Mobil oil. Trouble was the Mobil oil wasn't at all suited to the application. Specifically to the presence of lead in aviation gasoline. IIRC the decision to use/recommend Mobil oil was made by Porsche with no input from Mobil. The results weren't pretty and Porsche was soon out of the airplane engine business. (Besides the oil problem the engine was not well-suited to airplane applications.)

Now I've run Mobil 1 0w-40 oil in my 02 Boxster for probably more miles than most have. I've also used at one time or another -- for various lengths of time -- Mobil 1 15w-50, Mobil 1 10-40 high mileage oil, and the last couple of oil changes Castrol Syntec 5w-50, which I also have switched to using in my 03 Turbo.

My Boxster has fared quite well on Mobil 1 oil. It has almost 234k miles on the original untouched engine. And the engine (and the car) still run just fine.

However, very soon after buying the Boxster -- within just a few thouand miles -- I found through an oil analysis a lot of water in the oil. No coolant leak just the natural presence of water from condensation in the oil arising from using the car in cold weather and not driving the car long enough to boil the water out of the oil. More on this below.

Even though I drove around 10 miles -- one way - to work I found upon closely monitoring coolant temperature (via an OBDII scan tool) I found that even after 10 miles of driving the coolant was nowhere near 212F.

Furthermore, even on longer drives -- up to 70+ miles -- the coolant tempeture remained well below 212F. Helped in part by a combination of factors: Cold weather (winter in the mid-west); the relatively light loads the engine subjected to on these drives (cruising at freeway speeds) and most times driving with the autoclimate control set to 72F in order to heat the cabin. Doing this turns on the electric A/C fans and these work to keep coolant temperature down. On these long drives seldom did the coolant temperature even touch 200F most of the time staying 196F or even less.

(I might add here that in steady state cruising on level ground the Boxster engine was only using approx. 20% of its power, that it is once up to speed it requires around 40hp to keep the Boxster moving down the road. I have monitored engine loads for other cars I have owned and currently own and they also require about the same amout of power under similar circumstances.)

Anyhow, after this oil analysis since due to circumstances beyond my control I might not be able to drive the car in such a way to get the oil hot enough to boil away the accumulation of water (and perhaps unburned gasoine as well) I vowed to change the oil more frequently and settled upon 5K miles.

The more frequent oil changes -- even with Mobil 1 oil -- I think has contributed to the engine's longevity.

Based on examining the various spec sheets for various oils, I do not think Mobil 1 is the best oil available in its price range and have decided to switch away from using it. While I did rack up approx. 225K miles using nothing by Mobil oil driving my Boxster I decided to switch oils to provide a bit more margin. Now at 234K miles the Boxster probably could care less. It could probably run another 234K miles using Mobil 1 and following the same oil change interval and of course me following the same usage pattern.

However, when I bought the 03 Turbo (used last year) I wanted a better oil for its more highly stressed engine and I didn't want to have to stock -- I oftentimes do the oil changes for both cars -- two different oils so to simplify things I opted to use the same oil in both cars.

Sincerely,

Macster.

Last edited by Macster; 07-30-2010 at 12:23 PM. Reason: Typos.
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Old 07-30-2010, 12:27 PM   #56
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My question is.....what oil is readily available can I use besides 0-40 mobil 1???? I gotta be able to pick it up at advanced auto or autozone ect. Im not mail ordering away for oil.....something I refuse to do. My saab also calls for 0-40 mobil 1. So as a matter of convience I ussually just buy it when I see it avail.
Castrol Syntec 5W40. Porsche approved, SL (not SM!). ~$7.50.

Castol is owned by BP, so be extra careful cleaning up any that spills.
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Old 07-30-2010, 12:28 PM   #57
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Thanks as always for the thoughtful reply, Macster.

I recall Porsche's attempt at an airplane engine vividly. Oil was the very least of their problems with that venture! It's a great bit of Porsche history.

I think your Boxster story agrees perfectly with my own inexpert view of the subject. Frequent changes matter a lot more than the brand of oil you use. I change mine often for exactly the reason you did: repeated short trips cause water to accumulate in the oil, drastically shortening its useful life. At 225,000 trouble free miles on your car, it would be easy to say there were better oils, but hard to say that Mobil 1 was harmful.
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Old 07-30-2010, 12:37 PM   #58
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You're missing the key component in the discussion: viscosity improvers.
This concurs with the LN article. It is the viscosity improvers that you want LESS of, meaning, you want an oil with a closer "range".

A 0w-40 oil will require more viscosity improvers than a 5w-40 motor oil with all other things being equal.

It is beleived that the 5w oil is a better base and requires less viscosity modifers to get it (and keep it) at 40 (at full operating temp).

I'm a Castrol Syntec 5w-40 guy and use it in my 996 and my wifes VW.
It is available at any Pep boys and has been approved by a myriad of auto manufacturers as a suitable alternative to whatever the factory fill is.

How long will it be available? Now that's another question. It's made by BP....
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Old 07-30-2010, 12:38 PM   #59
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Not that it matters a bit, but my independent uses Pentosin 5W40 synthetic. When I asked them why, they told me their supplier can get it very quickly and they had good results. They also told me they would get Castrol Syntec or Mobil 1 if I felt strongly about it. Their view: good oil is good oil, just change it often.

And that is probably a more important oil question - assuming you are not using cheap crap, how often should you change the oil in the M96 engine?

Currently I am going with a 6k or 6 months cycle. Even that much less than the Porsche recommendation seems a bit long to me. I changed the dino oil in my 968 every 3k. Those cars have some cam teeth/chain problems. When I checked at 115k miles, mine were pristine.
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Old 07-30-2010, 01:00 PM   #60
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WOW!! this oil debate is really getting some traction..
FWIW. I have a new engine with a 2 year guarantee in my 2001 996, and my indy mechanic
told me that i must keep using the Mobil 1 oil to maintain the engine guatantee. As i had asked
him about different oils, especially after being influenced here with all the different post on engine
oils. My indy recommends frequent oil changes mitigates many engine related issues.

On the engine topic, What octane fuel are poeple using?
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Old 07-30-2010, 01:00 PM
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