Luminator

I posted back in February , the problems I had after some work an indy performed on my 2000 cab. Clutch assembly, flywheel, to bearing, updated RMS, new plugs. I did'nt name the Indy shop, but was not satisfied with what I considered questionable work. He worked on many different makes. When he said the car was ready to race, I had a chattering noise when the car was in nuetral that went away when the pedal was depressed. Also what I would describe as a shudder when I let the clutch out .
i suspected it was the t o bearing , and decided to take it to a different shop and check the first guys work. Most people asked me why I did'nt let the guy correct his work. I read numerous bad reviews on him , and did'nt trust him at all after he disconnected the cruise sensor and stuffed it away , while telling me it worked fine. He also charged me $500 to replace a window regulator. He looked at my aftermarket warranty and told me it was worthless. $3155 paid.

I did some research and found a new indy who only wrenches on pcars. Had him drive the car and told him the history. He also said probably the t o bearing. Paid him to tear it back apart and inspect/verify the other guys work. Everything checks out with regard to the clutch, but he finds other issues. I ask him to go through the car . The AOS was leaking , one of the spark plugs the other guy replaced was loose, he cleaned the throttle body, and replaced the fuel filter, air filter. Had him align the car and put new sumitomos on it too. He says it is like a different car and runs much better with no clutch noises. I pick it up and go 2 miles up the road and make a pee stop. Come outside and find coolant leaking. Call him up and he has me bring it back to him. Checked the level and go back to shop. Put it on the rack and a hose clamp was'nt put on right. Ok , it happens I guess. Tells me it wont leak anymore and I'm good to go. Take it over the mountain pass back home and have CEL come on at the peak of the hill. Pull over and check all fluid levels , and take it home easy. Get in the garage and find the airbox sensor unplugged and dangling. Call him in the morning and he tells me that they thought they had to remove the airbox , to correct the hose leak, but it wasnt necessary and they forgot to connect it. Drive the car hard for 30 miles and put it back in the garage . Discover oil dripping from the scavenger pump on the passenger side. Call him up and tell him, and he says I would'nt worry about a little drip.

I explain that it never had any oil leaks or residue ever. He tells me to keep an eye on it. I call the next day and tell him I'm on my way to drop it off. Upon his inspection , he says "thats not good" Goes on and says it may be a bad aos increasing oil pressure . Takes some tests and says the aos is good.
Decides to change the large o-ring on the pump and calls me a few days later to say the car is good. I ask him to drive it some and make sure it is good. Pick it up and go back over the hill and home 60 miles and find it leaking again the next morning from the scavenger pump. Check oil and drive back over the mountain. This is getting old. Remind him about the clutch noises.

I dropped the car off on Feb 23rd and its still at the shop . He put me low on the priority list as he is fixing the leak on his dime. I bought it at Xmas and put 1600 miles on it . I am now at $5700 in repairs , although tires and alignment are in there. I do have a warranty that will cover some things , but this wrench is supposed to deal with them and has'nt finalized anything yet. I am getting frustrated to say the least. Now his latest line is some clutches just make that noise.

If some of the experienced guys can give me any insight with regard to aos replacement , and what could go wrong , I would appreciate it.
Although I probably sound like a dufus for taking the car to the shop for a clutch job, I was intimidated by the porsche name , and thought it might be a nightmare. I have put together a SBC and installed it in a boat that has run in the ocean for 10 years , so I'm not completely worthless. I just wanted to have this car somewhat perfect so I could confindently enjoy it.

I know I have made this convaluted by going to 2 different guys.

Thanks in advance for the advice . If nothing else, maybe I can entertain someone. I am in a quandry , and did'nt plan on spending all my repair slush fund $ on my first issue. Contemplating on what to do next and had to vent.

Lou

dallasboats

you are getting screwed again and again. go to the dealer, at least they can fix your problem. most likely, rms replacement was not aligned or installed correctly and then the excuses started. rms is not a big deal, but if you paid for it, should be right. word of advice, stop going to cheap mechanics, they will talk crap about one another only looking for immediate income and are unaware or disinterested in truely understanding you or your car. i smell a tow truck driver....... transmission shop, blue lights flashing...... cheers. sorry for you troubles.

Luminator

The RMS is not leaking. I have been searching and cant find anything on the AOS causing the scavenger pump to leak. Again, I'm just starting to learn about the car. They are replacing different orings on the pump in a process of elimination. I'm just getting impatient they cant pinpoint the source. Maybe its just one of those things. I'm sure they are equally frustrated.


They are not cheap mechanics . They have an excellent reputation.
I thought their labor is fair, and the car does drive/run much better . Just going back 3x to get a leak fixed and the time that gets me perturbed. They are standing behind their work with regards to the leak. I think the clutch noise has them baffled and they probably dont want to tear it apart again.

Is there any chance the t o , and the clutch will quiet down after I put some miles on it? I have put less than 300 miles on it since it was replaced.


Anyone?

Shark Attack

It doesnt have them baffled. They dont want to pull the tranny out- Again.

I would say no, It is not going to quiet down.

Are you sure the chattering is the clutch?

After years of thinking a clutch was some mystical, magical device. Replacing mine when I did my IMS and RMS I learned it is a retarded-simple device.. Not a lot to it.

Luminator

I've gathered they don't want to pull the tranny again. The clutch noise was the reason I brought the car to them in the first place. They also replaced the clutch release arm, thinking that was a potential cause.

I am assuming the noise has to do with the clutch as it disappears when the pedal is depressed. Throw out bearing?

I appreciate the reply.

Macster

Ouch! As the local Porsche techs remind me, Porsche service may not be the cheapest around but it is the least expensive. (And I'm aware not everyone is blessed as I appear to be having several good Porsche dealerships to take my cars to.)

With all that has been done the the appearent incompetence it has been done with, the clutch noise/behavior could be anything.

I don't think it is going to go away with use. A good clutch job has the clutch working right from the beginning, not after some miles of use.

Now a bit of noise that disappears when the clutch is depressed may be "normal". That is if the noise is not the clutch, but coming from the transmssion. What I'm talking about is some cars have a bit more play -- nothing more than the normal allowable deviation in various component dimensions -- that when the transmission in neutral and the clutch out the normal engine rpm variation can cause the transmission to rattle a bit.

The dual mass flywheel is supposed to act as a dampener and mask this but some cars are more prone to manifesting this noise than others.

Both my 02 Boxster and 03 Turbo do this. But both must be up to operating temperature. The Boxster didn't do this at first, but somewhere between new and the 230K miles it has on it now the noise appeared. I can stop it by depressing the clutch then releasing it.

Same with the Turbo, but it had the noise when I bought it used with 9500 miles (and in pristine condition so it was not a wear or abuse issue. I've since put 21K miles on the car and while the clutch is fine once in a while when I stop the car and have the transmission in neutral the rattle appears. Same as the Boxster, I depress then release the clutch pedal and the noise is gone.

Now the noise is a rattle, not very loud, and which is inconsistent in that just when I think the noise is coming from the engine proper cause it sounds so in sync with the engine's speed, the noise changes its tempo and can almost disappear only to reappear again a moment later. But every time the clutch pedal depress and release makes the noise go away.

If the noise is something like the above, that is one thing.

If the noise is a squeal, rubbing noise, grating, grinding noise, a louder rattle, if you can feel any vibration through the pedal, if the clutch engagement is inconsistent, hard to get smooth every time, IOWs accompanied by any other symptoms of clutch trouble, then the noise is indicative of something more serious and the car will at least have to be examined by an expert.

So far the people you have had look at the car, work on the car, don't based on what you've reported qualify for expert classification.

Based on what has gone on before, unless you are very lucky and the problem is found to reside out side of the clutch's internals (those inside the bellhousing) almost certainly the transmisison/clutch will have to come out of the car.

At this time the tech will of course check to make sure the transmssion/engine mounts are intact and not mis-installed or broken or even loose or missing, the half-shafts are ok, the external clutch linkage and clutch hydraulic system ok, and then of course find what he finds once he has the transmission out and the clutch hardware exposed and can examine the clutch hardware up close.

He'll check the flywheel for damage or a mal-functioning dual mass feature. (The amount of movement is measured and if too much the flywheel needs to be replaced.)

At the same time you might consider having the AOS replaced and the RMS and IMS end plate and its seal and 3 bolts upgraded to address any leak issues, unless the tech finds the rear of the engine dry and free of any signs of any oil leaks.

What you do about the other shops is up to you. You might speak with someone from the CA Bureau of Automotive Repair

http://www.bar.ca.gov/

and see if you have grounds to file a complaint. You might be able to recover some of the money you spent via small claims court.

But this comes later. Right now you need to find a place that can help you and sort out the mess the other shops have gotten the car and you into.

Sincerely,

Macster.

Luminator

Thank you for the replies.

The flywheel was replaced at the 1st shop. He had said the clutch appeared to have more than 50% left, but that the flywheel was scored and out of tolernance. I did get the old parts back and gave them to the 2nd wrench.

The RMS was replaced with the updated seal. The AOS was replaced at the 2nd shop, after which the only leak the car had appeared from the scavenger pump on the passenger side. (Banks 4-6?)

Maybe as you said , I will get lucky. My a$@ is bleeding at this point , and I'm afraid to get into another big bill.

I had put several thousand aside for any repairs , but would have been smarter to get a later model with less miles. Lesson learned, or still learning.

Thanks again for your input , I do appreciate it. The waiting game is killing me and I cant help but dwell on it . Would be a nice day for a drive.

Pac996

After many times of leaving cars sitting for long periods of time I've found the rubber and plastic or even metal parts go into a shrinking thing probably from the hot oils of better days penetrating hydrocarbon parts so when they sit not getting the treatment they shrink of flake out. The metal parts to include gaskets with metal can corode since they aren't getting oils pushed about them. I think its scary when a cars been sitting because of what I've seen on one car in particular when I opened the hood after a year. Rubber hoses looked like they were turning to butter or something all loose.

I've always concidered chattering of the clutch to mean its like grabbing on and off when engaging while in gear. I imagine you mean it's like a loose fitting thrust washer/spacer/syncro on a gear shaft in the transmission jingling? One of the major transmission repair shops should have a guy who could listen and tell you exactly what the problem is. I don't mean have them work on the car but just let them have a listen for the sake of reality. If it were the old days of racing for pinks in newport news with the navy or shipyard guys you could just drop by the old drive inn and get instant answers from the boys. Just don't be a sucker and set up a race for later on that night with a 389 65 gto. In an hour the engine would be out and an aluminum 427 race engine would be taking your new car away from you.

What has me is what exactly is covered by your insurance. Could it be the reapirmen don't want a second opinion? The Porsche dealers might give a better reading and know they can get the money from the insurance company easier.

Luminator

Anyone have a recommendation for a true porsche mechanic other than the dealer in So cal. I have done yet more research and am leaning toward Hergesheimer in Lake Forest. It is difficult as I live in Temecula and work on a project in Ventura County M-F. Thought i might get the car back today , as promised. They were to work on it yesterday and today and call with an update.
But alas, not even a phone call, and no answer at the shop. I have tried to remain calm and amicable throughout this, but am growing tired. I dont think loosing my temper will solve much, but I am very close to that point.

gota911

After going the Indy route twice and getting those ^ results, are you sure you want to "roll the Indy dice" a third time? I certainly wouldn't, but that's me.

Luminator

Yea, my luck on the dice has been bad. My latest thought is wanting to have the ims bearing retrofit done while I'm going broke. But since no dealer does this, I need to go to an indy that does. Maybe I should get the current problems resolved before I compound my situation further. Sounds like the trans will be coming out yet again.

alpine003

IMO, for some things, it pays to go a little further or pay a bit more to have a dealer do the work on some major things. Most give generous warranties with their repairs/service.

I had the IMS replaced twice because it didn't seal 100% the first time. Luckily it was done at a dealer which offered 2 yr/24k warranty with all their work. On top of that, I got a free oil change out of it as well.

Porsche as well as other higher end car dealerships are subjected to a lot of scrutiny from the corporate hq, largely based on the feedback cards consumers fill out. They want to ensure all their customers are giving them high marks and will most of the time bend over backwards to make sure you are satisfied with their service.

My $.02

Luminator

I was under the impression the dealer does not do ims bearing retrofit/upgrades as its an aftermarket deal.

alpine003

That is the official stance but there are exceptions all the time. Just need to find one which some are willing to do, more so if you're pocketing and paying for labor instead of it being a warranty item.

Analog Theory

I can help you...PM sent.