Dealer Wrecked my 996
05-01-2007, 11:02 PM
#61
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It sounds like you are handling things just fine. It sucks to have to run around in circles for the dealer to hear you, but as we all know dealers still just dont get it.
I hope you can sit down with the owner and have him see the lost that you have incured. It's not that your looking to take the owner to the cleaners; its just that you want to be fairly compensated.
People and companies make mistakes, I wish some could see that and do the right thing instead of hiding behind others
Good Luck
I hope you can sit down with the owner and have him see the lost that you have incured. It's not that your looking to take the owner to the cleaners; its just that you want to be fairly compensated.
People and companies make mistakes, I wish some could see that and do the right thing instead of hiding behind others
Good Luck
05-01-2007, 11:02 PM
#62
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Originally Posted by AndyK
The dealer more than anyone understands what diminished value is, and that there will be plenty of diminished value if/when they just repair your car. Try trading the car in to ANY dealer - paint is fresh, car was in a crash, no thanks. Porsche will never certify a crashed car, so the dealer would have to wholesale the car out. The difference between wholesale and retail is your diminished value, I bet!?
Don't settle for a $6k bandaid. They F-d up your car, they need to give you a car that isn't F-d up. Period!
Don't settle for a $6k bandaid. They F-d up your car, they need to give you a car that isn't F-d up. Period!
05-02-2007, 01:10 AM
#64
Originally Posted by cary1
If necessary, this is the time to pull out the card that if they cannot accommodate this request you will have to go consult with counsel, something you would prefer not to do if it isn't necessary and something they don't want.
-td
05-02-2007, 02:50 AM
#65
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Originally Posted by td873
Hmm. Singing a different tune. Hindsight and all that...
-td
-td
05-02-2007, 07:54 AM
#66
I mentioned the diminished value of the car to which they said it's going to be very hard to determine diminished value, if any.
Unfortunately that statement alone, especially the "if any" remark, would really hurt the credibility of the GM. Over the years I have seen many Porsches on Dealers' lots with only cosmetic damage, and the Dealer refused to make the repair until after the car has been purchased. The reason is that they are concerned that there are very many astute Porsche buyers who would detect the repair and then demand a huge discount. So Porsche Dealers, at least in my area are very aware of diminished value.
This Dealer's attitude reminds me that there are lots of bad businessmen operating car Dealerships. If I were the GM I would want to get this resolved as quickly as possible, and would offer the owner KBB excellent on a tradein and sell him any car on my lot for Dealer's cost. This would be my initial offer and we could negotiate from that point forward. I would at all costs avoid getting lawyers involved unless the owner made ridiculous demands.
So now it appears that lawyers will get involved, and the potential for negative publicity with untold financial impact on the Dealership's business is likely. When I read a story like this one, all I can do is to shake my head and think what can the GM be thinking.
Unfortunately that statement alone, especially the "if any" remark, would really hurt the credibility of the GM. Over the years I have seen many Porsches on Dealers' lots with only cosmetic damage, and the Dealer refused to make the repair until after the car has been purchased. The reason is that they are concerned that there are very many astute Porsche buyers who would detect the repair and then demand a huge discount. So Porsche Dealers, at least in my area are very aware of diminished value.
This Dealer's attitude reminds me that there are lots of bad businessmen operating car Dealerships. If I were the GM I would want to get this resolved as quickly as possible, and would offer the owner KBB excellent on a tradein and sell him any car on my lot for Dealer's cost. This would be my initial offer and we could negotiate from that point forward. I would at all costs avoid getting lawyers involved unless the owner made ridiculous demands.
So now it appears that lawyers will get involved, and the potential for negative publicity with untold financial impact on the Dealership's business is likely. When I read a story like this one, all I can do is to shake my head and think what can the GM be thinking.
05-02-2007, 03:15 PM
#67
They absolutely know there is dimished value. They are just playing hardball.
For what's it's worth, here's a picture of my '00 C4 from last month. Total cost thus far is $9k. Of that, the Litronic headlight part is $3k.
Damage includes new bumper, hood, both fenders and both headlights. Nothing structural was damaged.
For what's it's worth, here's a picture of my '00 C4 from last month. Total cost thus far is $9k. Of that, the Litronic headlight part is $3k.
Damage includes new bumper, hood, both fenders and both headlights. Nothing structural was damaged.
05-02-2007, 03:24 PM
#68
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Originally Posted by Troy R
They absolutely know there is dimished value. They are just playing hardball.
For what's it's worth, here's a picture of my '00 C4 from last month. Total cost thus far is $9k. Of that, the Litronic headlight part is $3k.
Damage includes new bumper, hood, both fenders and both headlights. Nothing structural was damaged.
For what's it's worth, here's a picture of my '00 C4 from last month. Total cost thus far is $9k. Of that, the Litronic headlight part is $3k.
Damage includes new bumper, hood, both fenders and both headlights. Nothing structural was damaged.
05-02-2007, 05:34 PM
#69
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You can tell. A paint tool will tell that there has been painting. Welding that has been done will show different beading/welding than factory welding. For something like a broken headlight you may be ok, or a bumper respray, but 10-15k in damage, and a good body shop can tell.
05-02-2007, 05:52 PM
#70
Originally Posted by AndyK
They F-d up your car, they need to give you a car that isn't F-d up. Period!
Originally Posted by Giovanni
I totally agree!
First, Sorry about the car. I think that you shouldn't have to compromise on your repairs. There is a happy middle ground, but I don't think it is simply getting the car back looking "new."
Second: Now you have to use that attorney trump card, and good thing you have an experienced friend in this field. There is nothing like saying, "please refer all your future correspondence to my attorney." And then watch from the peanut gallery.
Lastly, the dealer wants to make things right, but right to him and right by you are not in the same ballpark. I agree with Carpundit in that only the dealership wins by not having counsel involved. You need someone on your side willing to advocate your position to the fullest.
Like Chris Rock said, "sure you can do it [yourself], but that doesn't mean it's to be done."
-td
Originally Posted by cary1
Has anyone ever told you that you are an obnoxious *****? Seriously, you are. The tune didn't change, the problem is your reading comprehension is at about a third grade level. Try going back and re-reading what I posted, then see if you can understand it.
-td
Last edited by himself; 05-02-2007 at 06:34 PM.
05-02-2007, 06:46 PM
#71
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Apologies in advance for the long post, but I want to add my two (or ten) cents here in hopes it will help. This free legal advice is worth exactly what I'm charging for it, so take it for what it's worth. I'm sure other attorneys on this board have different views, and I do not hold this out as authoritative. But hopefully this will help in your negotiations.
That looks like a lot more than $6K in damage to my untrained eye. I banged up the front of my car far less than that, and the repair was north of $5k, with no headlight replacement required. I think the dealer is low-balling you.
I am not sure what specific laws apply in your state, but I doubt there are any statutes that apply to this specific situation. You should read the invoice/estimate forms provided by the dealer when you took your car in for the initial work in order to determine if there are any specific terms or conditions that apply. I just looked at the back of a repair invoice for my car from a Porsche dealership, and it says "said property is not insured or protected to the amount of the actual cash value thereof, or otherwise, against loss occasioned by theft, fire or vandalism while the property remains with the dealer." The fact that "negligence" is not listed as a non-covered event is significant, and suggests that it is covered.
Unless a specific law is in place, general principles of negligence will likely dictate the outcome. Simply put, the dealer is responsible for all of the damages that were "proximately caused" by the negligent conduct of its employee. They can't really argue they aren't liable, so they are trying to chisel you on how much they will have to pay. I think most judges would consider the reasonable damages in your situation to consist of repair costs, rental car for the period your car is unavailable, and diminution in value damages to the extent they can be determined to any degree of specificity. Unless there is a specific law in your state that gives you a right to recover your attorney's fees in a dispute of this nature, negligence claims generally do not provide for any such award (at least here in California).
With this background in mind, here's what I would do:
1. Take the car to at least two reputable body shops in the area that have experience with high-end vehicles. Have them give you written quotes for the repair. You don't have to take the dealer's word for it as to how much damage has been done.
2. Take the car (or pictures of the car) to other Porsche dealers, both new and used, and ask them to tell you how much they would sell the car for at retail, fully repaired, under the assumption that the crash and repair will be known to potential buyers. It may be difficult to get commitments as to a specific value, but you're likely to get a range. Some dealers might also give you an estimate of how much a prior crash hurts resale value (i.e., 10%, 20%). An alternative would be to hire an auto appraiser, but I don't know if any are available in your area.
3. Research sale prices for similar vehicles (i.e., same year, make, model, and options) in your area to determine the market value of an uncrashed car (i.e., clean carfax).
4. Go back to the owner of the dealership with a specific demand. I would tell him that he could either pay me X dollars to cover the damages (repair, diminution in value, rental car), or accept the car in trade for a vehicle on his lot that has a value consistent with the uncrashed value of your car (survey their lot to determine if there is a car in your range that you would accept). I don't see how you can force him to buy the car from you, but offering to take a car off the lot gives the dealer an option to just paying a bunch of dough. And I think that negotiations always work better when you have specific dollar amounts and demands at issue.
If the dealer balks, then go get a lawyer. But I agree with the other posters that this is not a case you'd want to try before a jury. I also wonder whether there is much negative PR exposure here, as I don't think most "consumer reporters" care too much about Porsche owners.
Hope this helps and good luck.
That looks like a lot more than $6K in damage to my untrained eye. I banged up the front of my car far less than that, and the repair was north of $5k, with no headlight replacement required. I think the dealer is low-balling you.
I am not sure what specific laws apply in your state, but I doubt there are any statutes that apply to this specific situation. You should read the invoice/estimate forms provided by the dealer when you took your car in for the initial work in order to determine if there are any specific terms or conditions that apply. I just looked at the back of a repair invoice for my car from a Porsche dealership, and it says "said property is not insured or protected to the amount of the actual cash value thereof, or otherwise, against loss occasioned by theft, fire or vandalism while the property remains with the dealer." The fact that "negligence" is not listed as a non-covered event is significant, and suggests that it is covered.
Unless a specific law is in place, general principles of negligence will likely dictate the outcome. Simply put, the dealer is responsible for all of the damages that were "proximately caused" by the negligent conduct of its employee. They can't really argue they aren't liable, so they are trying to chisel you on how much they will have to pay. I think most judges would consider the reasonable damages in your situation to consist of repair costs, rental car for the period your car is unavailable, and diminution in value damages to the extent they can be determined to any degree of specificity. Unless there is a specific law in your state that gives you a right to recover your attorney's fees in a dispute of this nature, negligence claims generally do not provide for any such award (at least here in California).
With this background in mind, here's what I would do:
1. Take the car to at least two reputable body shops in the area that have experience with high-end vehicles. Have them give you written quotes for the repair. You don't have to take the dealer's word for it as to how much damage has been done.
2. Take the car (or pictures of the car) to other Porsche dealers, both new and used, and ask them to tell you how much they would sell the car for at retail, fully repaired, under the assumption that the crash and repair will be known to potential buyers. It may be difficult to get commitments as to a specific value, but you're likely to get a range. Some dealers might also give you an estimate of how much a prior crash hurts resale value (i.e., 10%, 20%). An alternative would be to hire an auto appraiser, but I don't know if any are available in your area.
3. Research sale prices for similar vehicles (i.e., same year, make, model, and options) in your area to determine the market value of an uncrashed car (i.e., clean carfax).
4. Go back to the owner of the dealership with a specific demand. I would tell him that he could either pay me X dollars to cover the damages (repair, diminution in value, rental car), or accept the car in trade for a vehicle on his lot that has a value consistent with the uncrashed value of your car (survey their lot to determine if there is a car in your range that you would accept). I don't see how you can force him to buy the car from you, but offering to take a car off the lot gives the dealer an option to just paying a bunch of dough. And I think that negotiations always work better when you have specific dollar amounts and demands at issue.
If the dealer balks, then go get a lawyer. But I agree with the other posters that this is not a case you'd want to try before a jury. I also wonder whether there is much negative PR exposure here, as I don't think most "consumer reporters" care too much about Porsche owners.
Hope this helps and good luck.
05-02-2007, 10:22 PM
#72
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Spoke with owner of dealership today....
Finally, after many phone calls and visits to the dealership, I received a phone call from the owner of the dealership that wrecked my 996. I got basically the same answer from him that I got from everyone else below him. "Sorry, but it was an accident, accident's happen." He still insists on having his body shop do the repairs and then and only then would he even consider a possible trade-in. Oh, and he also told me that I was acting like his 15 yr. old daughter. Is he kidding me!!
By the way, my car was flat-bedded to the dealership for the initial warranty work and I never signed any dealership paperwork. Is this a good thing? Also, the tech that wrecked my car was ticketed for the accident. So he was negligent.
By the way, my car was flat-bedded to the dealership for the initial warranty work and I never signed any dealership paperwork. Is this a good thing? Also, the tech that wrecked my car was ticketed for the accident. So he was negligent.
05-02-2007, 10:46 PM
#74
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Time to consult the lawyer.
Also get advice on the suggestion about causing him some bad publicity by going to the local media.
Sorry to hear that he was a jerk.
Also get advice on the suggestion about causing him some bad publicity by going to the local media.
Sorry to hear that he was a jerk.
05-02-2007, 10:52 PM
#75
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get a loaner 996..Let your 15yr old daughter run it into every freakin thing you can find on the lot...Do they havd an RS? Can you Say Porsche Bumper Cars?ok.. Im just kidding. In no way do I imply or advise you to do this(Disclaimer, disclaimer.)
Last edited by dave1200; 05-02-2007 at 11:21 PM.
