CT03911

Learned a lot with the fuel threads lately and I naturally eased into stabilizer areas too. Been doing the stabilizer deal for many years and fighting water in the fuel on boats in particular for nearly 12 years. Here is what I'm thinking I will attempt to do this year.
Add one ounce of "E-zorb" to my 996 tank. The fuel in it is fresh as of last Saturday night (Sunoco, but let's not go there...). The combination of winter fuels probably being sold here in CT and the 10% ethanol gas anyways means what is in my tank has a high affinity for water and because my tank is alway topped off I think this fresh fuel and 1 ounce or less of "E-zorb" will ensure that there is no water separation in my tank over the winter. I will do the same in the lawn tractor and trimmers, etc.
This procedure will keep the tank and all the lines etc free of any water trying to seperate out of the gas. Hopefully there is next to none anyways.
Next is to add the Stabil which has nothing to do with water in the fuel but will simply maintain the fuel quality and keep it fresh from breakdown. This two pronged attack should cover all the bases on my car's fuel system which will be stored until spring except for maybe a few perfect days of getting it out and moving the parts around. I do not expect to burn off much of the gas in any event.

Wellardmac

Seriously, fuel doesn't degrade that quickly. You can add whatever makes you feel better, but the fuel is going to be fine sitting there until the Spring, regardless of what you do or do not do. The fuel that you buy has stabilizers in it that make sure that there will be no issues over the winter.

I'm also curious as to how this large quantity of water is going to get into your tank through a sealed gas cap, am I missing something? Yes, ethanol is miscible with water, but it is not seriously hygroscopic and should arrive in your tank with no water in it, so unless your tank already has water in there, then you should have no issues.

CT03911

Seriously, fuel doesn't degrade that quickly. You can add whatever makes you feel better, but the fuel is going to be fine sitting there until the Spring, regardless of what you do or do not do. The fuel that you buy has stabilizers in it that make sure that there will be no issues over the winter.

I'm also curious as to how this large quantity of water is going to get into your tank through a sealed gas cap, am I missing something? Yes, ethanol is miscible with water, but it is not seriously hygroscopic and should arrive in your tank with no water in it, so unless your tank already has water in there, then you should have no issues.


Oreganet, man where is that comment coming from? Pretty much every piece of information I can find online says that fuel does degrade after 60-90 days. Ask any engine repair shop that does lawn equipment stored all winter. Ask them for an opinion. Stabil in the tank for the winter is a must do winter checklist item for cars stored or driven very little.
As far as the ezorb goes I too suspect there is no water in my gas because I buy from reputable sources and keep it filled all the time. Having said that I cannot be sure there isn't a low point in the tank that could hold some water. If I put an ounce or less of ezorb in and allow it to mix well and burn that gas I then can say for certain that my tank has no water in it.
When I then put the stabil in it and store it I have a perfect a fuel system as I can get- all for maybe a couple of dollars. It's worth it to me. You make your own call. If you still disagree could you point me to evidence to the contrary please. Thanks.

Wellardmac

CT03911,
Here's a quote directly from a ChevronTexaco website. This is typical of all gasoline:

"22. How long can I store gasoline without it going bad?
Gasoline stored in a tightly closed container in a cool place will stay good for at least one year. It is better if the container or fuel tank is almost (95 percent) full. If the container or fuel tank will be in the direct sun or will be heated above 30°C (80°F) much of the time, add an aftermarket fuel stabilizer to the gasoline when you first buy it. Gasoline-oil blends for two-stroke cycle engines stored under the proper conditions will keep as well as gasoline itself."

The key is the full tank. Gum formation happens through an oxidative process, if the tank is full, there is no oxygen to get into the fuel - assuming that the tank is well sealed. Gasoline doesn't readily absorb oxygen, although, high ethanol content gasolines will absorb more O2. If you are on the east coast during the winter, the temperatures are well below 30C and the oxidation process is even slower, so you have no fear at all of degradation of the fuel.

Not only does a full tank of gas help keep your fuel stable, but it also is safer. A full tank prevents a head-space of flammable gasoline vapor and will prevent ignition. As an aside, you can stick a match into fuel and it will not burn, only the fuel vapor is flammable.

If you're in California or Florida during the Summer, then the story is different, but we're talking about Winter storage here. If you have your car sitting with a full tank of gas over the Winter you will see no issues.

Hopefully this will help you feel a little more comfortable.

As I said, if you feel more comfortable doing what you're doing, then by all means go ahead and do it, but what I'm saying is that you really don't need to do any of what you're doing, as the fuel is perfectly stable over the time period and temperature range that your car will be sitting idle.

porschedog

Yeah, but did you read the E-Zorb label (or look on the Web site) where it says to agitate the fuel after adding their product. How do you plan to "agitate" your car? Seriously. If you don't it can cause the gas to gel. That will $#^&*@ up your engine big time. MDR says you can insert an air hose into the tank for 5-10 minutes. Get real. It can gel if youoverdose the fule, but how do you know if that is the case? This isn't a test tube, where you can look at it.

E-Zorb is an emulsifier. Emulsifiers (think of what happens when you mix oil & vinegar salad dressing - that's emulsification) are bad for engines. Why? Because, despite MDR's claim (they sell E-Zorb) that they remove the water, in fact they just suspend it in the fuel, but in large globs. GM did extensive testing on emulsifiers in the 1980s in an effort to boost fuel efficiency. They found that emulsified fuel caused huge carbon buildup and very poor drivability. They had to rebuild the engines every 20 hours. Emulsified fuel, because of the water content, are also hard on seals and fuel pumps.

Emulsifiers = bad news. If you really had so much water in the tank that the engine would'nt ru, or ran poorly, it'd be time to have the tank removed and drained.

I just started a new job with a chemical company that has vast resources and is into all types of boat and car fuel additives and oils. They experimented with emulsifiers but abandoned them as causing way too many problems. My company makes a fule additive that is enzyme-based and can actually re-introduce water into the gas one molecule at a time, That way it goes through the combustion chamber with no problems. It doesn't happen instantly, but not much that is worthwhile does. I won't mention the name here, because I am not trying to push it. It sells great all on its own. If you want scientific backup, PM me and I'll point you at the Exxon fuel consultant or the ASTM tests.

ltc

I agree with Oreganet.

I've stored my cars in heated garages for the past few years, full to the top tank with fresh gas and have not had any problems/issues.
I've also stored, in the same garage, 8 gallons of gas in my emergency generator for over 10 years.....starts every time.

In the spring, get a bottle of Techron (black bottle, ~ $6.00 at WalMart), and add it to the tank at the first fill up.

Also, a trick my mechanic gave me which seems to work.
On the first start up after winter sleep, pull the fuse for the fuel pump, crank the engine over until full oil pressure is built up, repeat again, then put the fuel pump fuse back in and start normally.

Wellardmac

Thanks itc.

Porschedog - Yeah, I was going to point him at the ASTM tests, but they really don't seem to give much data on the fuel stability, just the method.

There's tons of scientific literature on this, but unfortunately, most don't have the access to it (or scientific understanding) that we do and folklore wins out, even though there's no basis for it.

I was glad to find the Chevron page that said what we needed in a clear and simple manner.

CT03911

Don't know guys. Gas sellers say no need, stabilizer sellers say gotta have it. After reviewing the Chevron site it seems to basically say to me if you have Chevron gas and it is stored perfectly you can be ok for up to a year. I must say that type of statement is a surprise to me but you are correct, it's printed there.
They do go on to discuss the use of stabilizers where fuel systems are not sealed, the environment is not ideal or to follow a particular manufacturers guidelines (such as is normal with seasonal equipment owners manuals).
I guess it seems to me that the possibility of some fuel deterioration is there. Stabil (among others) will prevent that deterioration and is a well proven product. I am going to use it. I appreciate the feedback.
The E-Zorb is another deal and due in no small part to you guys posting I think I too will pass on using it. As a former boat owner for many years but never a car owner that went into storage I think I was primed to go that route. Also, having bought my car last April 2 1/2 years old with 5k miles on it knew it had sat around a lot. I can not be sure what the previous owner did for storage and was thinking some water could be in my tank. I do know what E-Zorb looks like when it pulls water out of the solution and settles to the bottom having had two boats with unusual water in the fuel problems. I think I can just pass on the ezorb route. I have put about 5k miles on it myself and numerous fillups. I keep the tank full. Good call on skipping the ezorb guys. Thanks for the feedback again.

Wellardmac

Not a problem. I'm glad that you got to a place that you're comfortable and that's all that matters.

Let me add from the chemical perspective (that a Ph.D. in chemistry and 12 years of industrial research experience brings) the arguments of fuel degradation are just BS, but people get confused by the conflicting marketing and folklore (as you did). This also applies to the discussion we had on the differences between branded and "home brand" gas such as that available from Costco, etc.

In the end it sall comes down to marketing. Branded fuel suppliers want you to believe their story and additives companies want you to believe their story. In the end it all comes down to marketing, which in most cases is trying to get you to believe in smoke and mirrors, or buy into an unreal image.

Gasoline is a saturated hydrocarbon distilled from crude oil. Chemically, this is a very stable species that is not readily modified under ambient conditions. Sure, some oxidation can happen over the 1 year time period at summer temperatures, but at winter temperatures there's not a chance (cat in hell) that anything will happen. If anything, there's a greater chance of the fuel additives degrading than the gasoline - they will do this long before the fuel.