Turbo S 22k Mi $484 out the door at Gooding
01-30-2016, 05:10 PM
#16
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I'm not sure if the quality of the cars has changed significantly over the past few years. The prices have been climbing steadily every year but hit a wall this year. May be it's the quality of the cars and the ambitious estimates but I believe it is mainly due to softening of the market due to the economic uncertainty and market turbulence.
01-30-2016, 05:35 PM
#17
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I think the quality of the cars have been fairly similar over the past few years but the sale prices have been steadily increasing until this year. May be it's the overly ambitious estimates or the mediocre cars in the auction but I believe it is the economic uncertainty and the stock market turbulence. Unless it is a rare car like the turbo S, the majority of the cars are not even reaching low estimates.
01-30-2016, 05:44 PM
#18
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I definitely would not have left AZ empty handed. Truly some excellent deals, such as the original 300sl roadster @ 700 out the door and that white Carrera RS for $550 or so was a screaming deal
01-30-2016, 06:47 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
It is usually very difficult to replicate an auction result, be it high or low. A particularly high price, outlier level, is almost always the result of two people going toe-to-toe where they both have to win. Remove one of those two from the bidding on that car, on that day, and it sells for much less. Likewise, a good car that sells well below where it should usually means that for whatever reason, there was only one real buyer bidding that day.
To the OP's car - $484,000 is not even close to indicative of the TTS market. This was a higher mileage example (yes, to collectors, 22,000 miles on a car like this is indeed high), mediocre color combination, and is claimed to have some repaint. You couldn't replicate this price with 20 more of the same cars at auction, and at retail, this car would have been hard-pressed to bring $400,000 today. I think the PTS Ferrari Yellow TT for $242,000 is more realistic than this one, yet still much higher than it would have brought at retail.
Such is the auction world.
To the OP's car - $484,000 is not even close to indicative of the TTS market. This was a higher mileage example (yes, to collectors, 22,000 miles on a car like this is indeed high), mediocre color combination, and is claimed to have some repaint. You couldn't replicate this price with 20 more of the same cars at auction, and at retail, this car would have been hard-pressed to bring $400,000 today. I think the PTS Ferrari Yellow TT for $242,000 is more realistic than this one, yet still much higher than it would have brought at retail.
Such is the auction world.
01-30-2016, 08:09 PM
#20
Three Wheelin'
It is usually very difficult to replicate an auction result, be it high or low. A particularly high price, outlier level, is almost always the result of two people going toe-to-toe where they both have to win. Remove one of those two from the bidding on that car, on that day, and it sells for much less. Likewise, a good car that sells well below where it should usually means that for whatever reason, there was only one real buyer bidding that day.
To the OP's car - $484,000 is not even close to indicative of the TTS market. This was a higher mileage example (yes, to collectors, 22,000 miles on a car like this is indeed high), mediocre color combination, and is claimed to have some repaint. You couldn't replicate this price with 20 more of the same cars at auction, and at retail, this car would have been hard-pressed to bring $400,000 today. I think the PTS Ferrari Yellow TT for $242,000 is more realistic than this one, yet still much higher than it would have brought at retail.
Such is the auction world.
To the OP's car - $484,000 is not even close to indicative of the TTS market. This was a higher mileage example (yes, to collectors, 22,000 miles on a car like this is indeed high), mediocre color combination, and is claimed to have some repaint. You couldn't replicate this price with 20 more of the same cars at auction, and at retail, this car would have been hard-pressed to bring $400,000 today. I think the PTS Ferrari Yellow TT for $242,000 is more realistic than this one, yet still much higher than it would have brought at retail.
Such is the auction world.
01-31-2016, 03:27 PM
#21
I agree that most of the Porsches were unexceptional. Especially the 930s. There were probably 25 up for auction this weekend. Many were 'gray market', federalized in the US in the mid 80s, some with fairly high mileage, most had paint work. As to the $550k 73 RS at Bonhams, it will need significant work - the flares were mismatched and neither was correct. Probably $200k to sort it out properly and it was a third series car. The 993 Fly Yellow Turbo was David Mohlman's car. Interesting the number of cars being sold by people who had owned them for a very short time (flippers) and dealers. It almost looks like a daisy chain of one dealer selling to another and then to another to inflate values. It was interesting that with the serious Ferrari collection with late super cars -F40, Enzo, etc. - at a Gooding, many of these very low mileage cars had had 8-10 owners.
My take is that the auction houses inflated the estimates to get the cars consigned - they all need inventory - and that the standards were not particularly high.
My take is that the auction houses inflated the estimates to get the cars consigned - they all need inventory - and that the standards were not particularly high.
02-01-2016, 09:42 AM
#22
How we got here is not rocket science it is fairly simple. In the past two years a few semi modern specials cars started to sell at auctions at prices that were 50-100% jumps from where they were trading the previous day. What the reason for that is not worth speculating. Certainly part of it was that many of these models truly were under appreciated and under valued vs their intrinsic value, and some of the modern special cars kind of woke up overnight. Then, the next day dealers /owners all raised their prices almost 100% overnight, and many dealers started trying to corner the market buy everything in sight for these same models. However, they took a good idea and just got carried away. Rather than try and make fair money they all got crazy with asking prices. As secret collector has posted it is usually hard to replicate on a consistent basis these outlier sales (high and low) that happen at auction. So in the past 12 months rather than consistently replicating these high sales most of the high ask dealer cars are just sitting. the 500k super americas, the over priced porsche turbos, the 600k Ferrari 550 B , etc etc. So now these cars are moving dealer to dealer like a game of musical chairs or coming to auction. At auction its not really the auction houses that believe their estimates (trust me they dont believe their own estimates) but the auction houses have relationships with he owners of the cars and the owners shop around auctions houses play one vs the other and force their hands. You then end up with what we have now which high % of cars not selling or selling well below estimates. Markets self correct over time so my guess is within 12 months the auction houses will slowly start taking back more control over the clients and able to talk them back into more realistic estimates. They need to eventually or they risk loosing too much credibility and just looking like the 90’s stock brokers putting $1,000 price targets on dog sh...t . com… and I think long term they are too smart to let that happen. The flip side of all this, the “good side” is that as many of these cars sit at dealers un sold and head to auction we get more and more transparency. The more we see what real bids are at auctions on say a CGT which is typically a 600-700k car, the harder it becomes for dealers to troll the forums claim they are $1mln + etc etc. This is will work out in time. Dealers are certainly entitled to make a fair profit on their cars they dont work for the red cross however I think likely they will need to go back to expecting more realistic margins (rather than trying to mark cars up 80% just ripping people off), or they can just become museums rather than car dealerships. I dont think we will see overnight drastic drops but I think if you pay attention you will start to see some of the cars that have been on the market for a while slowly coming down in price. All this is pretty normal and I think will lead to a better more rational market over the next 2 years vs the prior 2 years. Still a good market , we are simply letting the”animal spirits” leave
Last edited by NYC123; 02-01-2016 at 10:23 AM.
02-01-2016, 10:47 AM
#23
Very well said.
Most agree that these cars were undervalued for a good while after the economy tanked (it's still in the tank imho), yet many of those same folks boldly predict that the bubble will burst and prices will somehow fall back to those values. I think reality will be that prices will fall over the next few years but we won't see average prices anywhere close to where they were 2008-2013.
Most agree that these cars were undervalued for a good while after the economy tanked (it's still in the tank imho), yet many of those same folks boldly predict that the bubble will burst and prices will somehow fall back to those values. I think reality will be that prices will fall over the next few years but we won't see average prices anywhere close to where they were 2008-2013.
02-01-2016, 03:15 PM
#24
How we got here is not rocket science it is fairly simple. In the past two years a few semi modern specials cars started to sell at auctions at prices that were 50-100% jumps from where they were trading the previous day. What the reason for that is not worth speculating. Certainly part of it was that many of these models truly were under appreciated and under valued vs their intrinsic value, and some of the modern special cars kind of woke up overnight. Then, the next day dealers /owners all raised their prices almost 100% overnight, and many dealers started trying to corner the market buy everything in sight for these same models. However, they took a good idea and just got carried away. Rather than try and make fair money they all got crazy with asking prices. As secret collector has posted it is usually hard to replicate on a consistent basis these outlier sales (high and low) that happen at auction. So in the past 12 months rather than consistently replicating these high sales most of the high ask dealer cars are just sitting. the 500k super americas, the over priced porsche turbos, the 600k Ferrari 550 B , etc etc. So now these cars are moving dealer to dealer like a game of musical chairs or coming to auction. At auction its not really the auction houses that believe their estimates (trust me they dont believe their own estimates) but the auction houses have relationships with he owners of the cars and the owners shop around auctions houses play one vs the other and force their hands. You then end up with what we have now which high % of cars not selling or selling well below estimates. Markets self correct over time so my guess is within 12 months the auction houses will slowly start taking back more control over the clients and able to talk them back into more realistic estimates. They need to eventually or they risk loosing too much credibility and just looking like the 90’s stock brokers putting $1,000 price targets on dog sh...t . com… and I think long term they are too smart to let that happen. The flip side of all this, the “good side” is that as many of these cars sit at dealers un sold and head to auction we get more and more transparency. The more we see what real bids are at auctions on say a CGT which is typically a 600-700k car, the harder it becomes for dealers to troll the forums claim they are $1mln + etc etc. This is will work out in time. Dealers are certainly entitled to make a fair profit on their cars they dont work for the red cross however I think likely they will need to go back to expecting more realistic margins (rather than trying to mark cars up 80% just ripping people off), or they can just become museums rather than car dealerships. I dont think we will see overnight drastic drops but I think if you pay attention you will start to see some of the cars that have been on the market for a while slowly coming down in price. All this is pretty normal and I think will lead to a better more rational market over the next 2 years vs the prior 2 years. Still a good market , we are simply letting the”animal spirits” leave
02-01-2016, 06:50 PM
#25
Turbo S 22k Mi $484 out the door at Gooding
Hi Guys- As a dealer I rarely post here as I think this forum is better suited for individuals, but since I also have a substantial collection as well and keeping my finger on the pulse of the market at all times I wanted to add some info and opinions that you guys might find helpful in terms of the recent auctions this past weekend in Scottsdale. As always it’s just one guys opinion but an experienced and knowledgeable opinion ( I think..haha!)
1- If you casually glance at the auction results you might rightly think prices were down some at the AZ auctions… but… and this is a BIG BUT… most of the consignments were either below average/poor, average or slightly above average…very very few cars were super low mile best of the best garage queens that collectors and the highest end dealers are searching everywhere for. You have to remember the picky collectors that are willing to spend for the very best are the guys that pay the strong/high prices…when you lose that type of buyer’s interest you are left with mostly price buyers that will accept the lesser cars…..the picky high dollar buyers have no interest and will not buy average cars even when the prices are much lower for such cars…it is not what they want so they won’t even look at them.
2- Before the auctions started earlier in the week I analyzed ALL of the cars of the type that I have interest in and far less than 10 cars in total from all the auction companies that even mildly interested me…cars that would have been good enough for me to consider although I don’t buy/sell at auctions regularly.
3- I did not attend but spoke to several very knowledgeable colleagues/clients that did attend and they also confirmed the same…..one guy said “looks like a Craigslist parking lot”…another said “the worst tomatoes at the supermarket…bruised, dented and picked over”
4- Except for a few specific instances the best cars continue to be bought/sold privately…..dealer/client, client/dealer, dealer/dealer, client/client….most people whether it be dealer or individual that has a truly GREAT car does not have to deal with the headache/risk PITA of dealing with auctions…..many people (myself included/Mr OCD) don’t want strangers climbing all over, touching, pawing their cars for several days and then the car comes home worse for wear!
5- Every guy/dealer that has an air-cooled 911 and a bottle of Armor All thinks their car is worth a fortune which is not the case….I’m exaggerating of course but I think you get the point.
6- The cars in AZ were average but the expectations were HIGH.....too high reserves/asks for average/below average cars.
7- The few great cars that were out there and there were just a few, did well and brought correct prices……and some of the decent but not the best did fine as well.
8- The gap between the superstar cars and the average/below average cars will continue to widen because the supply of the super exceptional virgin air cooled cars continues to diminish as they get absorbed into collections, exported etc…there simply are no more being made for almost 20 years now and have been undervalued for years.
9- The chit chat in the vintage Ferrari market is saying the same almost word for word……the cars are picked over now to a certain degree and when a truly great example surfaces it brings strong money in most cases.
10- As far as Seinfeld selling his 3 cars at Amelia auction coming soon, don’t read too much into that as Mr. S is a VERY savvy collector and does sell cars out of his large collection on a somewhat regular basis from time to time…for him to sell 3 cars is nothing.
11- With few exceptions and there are some from time to time, most 911’s at auction many times are problem cars that people can’t get rid of. As I said there are exceptions but more often than not this is the case.
Not trying to be a know it all but just wanted to add my two cents!
Thank for listening you guys!
Ray Joseph
RPM Sports Cars
1- If you casually glance at the auction results you might rightly think prices were down some at the AZ auctions… but… and this is a BIG BUT… most of the consignments were either below average/poor, average or slightly above average…very very few cars were super low mile best of the best garage queens that collectors and the highest end dealers are searching everywhere for. You have to remember the picky collectors that are willing to spend for the very best are the guys that pay the strong/high prices…when you lose that type of buyer’s interest you are left with mostly price buyers that will accept the lesser cars…..the picky high dollar buyers have no interest and will not buy average cars even when the prices are much lower for such cars…it is not what they want so they won’t even look at them.
2- Before the auctions started earlier in the week I analyzed ALL of the cars of the type that I have interest in and far less than 10 cars in total from all the auction companies that even mildly interested me…cars that would have been good enough for me to consider although I don’t buy/sell at auctions regularly.
3- I did not attend but spoke to several very knowledgeable colleagues/clients that did attend and they also confirmed the same…..one guy said “looks like a Craigslist parking lot”…another said “the worst tomatoes at the supermarket…bruised, dented and picked over”
4- Except for a few specific instances the best cars continue to be bought/sold privately…..dealer/client, client/dealer, dealer/dealer, client/client….most people whether it be dealer or individual that has a truly GREAT car does not have to deal with the headache/risk PITA of dealing with auctions…..many people (myself included/Mr OCD) don’t want strangers climbing all over, touching, pawing their cars for several days and then the car comes home worse for wear!
5- Every guy/dealer that has an air-cooled 911 and a bottle of Armor All thinks their car is worth a fortune which is not the case….I’m exaggerating of course but I think you get the point.
6- The cars in AZ were average but the expectations were HIGH.....too high reserves/asks for average/below average cars.
7- The few great cars that were out there and there were just a few, did well and brought correct prices……and some of the decent but not the best did fine as well.
8- The gap between the superstar cars and the average/below average cars will continue to widen because the supply of the super exceptional virgin air cooled cars continues to diminish as they get absorbed into collections, exported etc…there simply are no more being made for almost 20 years now and have been undervalued for years.
9- The chit chat in the vintage Ferrari market is saying the same almost word for word……the cars are picked over now to a certain degree and when a truly great example surfaces it brings strong money in most cases.
10- As far as Seinfeld selling his 3 cars at Amelia auction coming soon, don’t read too much into that as Mr. S is a VERY savvy collector and does sell cars out of his large collection on a somewhat regular basis from time to time…for him to sell 3 cars is nothing.
11- With few exceptions and there are some from time to time, most 911’s at auction many times are problem cars that people can’t get rid of. As I said there are exceptions but more often than not this is the case.
Not trying to be a know it all but just wanted to add my two cents!
Thank for listening you guys!
Ray Joseph
RPM Sports Cars
02-01-2016, 07:40 PM
#26
Rennlist Member
Are there any cars at the upcoming auctions you'd be interested in and could offer predictions on?
02-01-2016, 08:11 PM
#27
Turbo S 22k Mi $484 out the door at Gooding
No guarantees in this biz but I see some offerings at Amelia that look to be very good from the catalog at least....look to be much higher quality than the AZ cars....
02-01-2016, 08:38 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
The Great Oz has spoken...
Hi Guys- As a dealer I rarely post here as I think this forum is better suited for individuals, but since I also have a substantial collection as well and keeping my finger on the pulse of the market at all times I wanted to add some info and opinions that you guys might find helpful in terms of the recent auctions this past weekend in Scottsdale. As always it’s just one guys opinion but an experienced and knowledgeable opinion ( I think..haha!)
1- If you casually glance at the auction results you might rightly think prices were down some at the AZ auctions… but… and this is a BIG BUT… most of the consignments were either below average/poor, average or slightly above average…very very few cars were super low mile best of the best garage queens that collectors and the highest end dealers are searching everywhere for. You have to remember the picky collectors that are willing to spend for the very best are the guys that pay the strong/high prices…when you lose that type of buyer’s interest you are left with mostly price buyers that will accept the lesser cars…..the picky high dollar buyers have no interest and will not buy average cars even when the prices are much lower for such cars…it is not what they want so they won’t even look at them.
2- Before the auctions started earlier in the week I analyzed ALL of the cars of the type that I have interest in and far less than 10 cars in total from all the auction companies that even mildly interested me…cars that would have been good enough for me to consider although I don’t buy/sell at auctions regularly.
3- I did not attend but spoke to several very knowledgeable colleagues/clients that did attend and they also confirmed the same…..one guy said “looks like a Craigslist parking lot”…another said “the worst tomatoes at the supermarket…bruised, dented and picked over”
4- Except for a few specific instances the best cars continue to be bought/sold privately…..dealer/client, client/dealer, dealer/dealer, client/client….most people whether it be dealer or individual that has a truly GREAT car does not have to deal with the headache/risk PITA of dealing with auctions…..many people (myself included/Mr OCD) don’t want strangers climbing all over, touching, pawing their cars for several days and then the car comes home worse for wear!
5- Every guy/dealer that has an air-cooled 911 and a bottle of Armor All thinks their car is worth a fortune which is not the case….I’m exaggerating of course but I think you get the point.
6- The cars in AZ were average but the expectations were HIGH.....too high reserves/asks for average/below average cars.
7- The few great cars that were out there and there were just a few, did well and brought correct prices……and some of the decent but not the best did fine as well.
8- The gap between the superstar cars and the average/below average cars will continue to widen because the supply of the super exceptional virgin air cooled cars continues to diminish as they get absorbed into collections, exported etc…there simply are no more being made for almost 20 years now and have been undervalued for years.
9- The chit chat in the vintage Ferrari market is saying the same almost word for word……the cars are picked over now to a certain degree and when a truly great example surfaces it brings strong money in most cases.
10- As far as Seinfeld selling his 3 cars at Amelia auction coming soon, don’t read too much into that as Mr. S is a VERY savvy collector and does sell cars out of his large collection on a somewhat regular basis from time to time…for him to sell 3 cars is nothing.
11- With few exceptions and there are some from time to time, most 911’s at auction many times are problem cars that people can’t get rid of. As I said there are exceptions but more often than not this is the case.
Not trying to be a know it all but just wanted to add my two cents!
Thank for listening you guys!
Ray Joseph
RPM Sports Cars
1- If you casually glance at the auction results you might rightly think prices were down some at the AZ auctions… but… and this is a BIG BUT… most of the consignments were either below average/poor, average or slightly above average…very very few cars were super low mile best of the best garage queens that collectors and the highest end dealers are searching everywhere for. You have to remember the picky collectors that are willing to spend for the very best are the guys that pay the strong/high prices…when you lose that type of buyer’s interest you are left with mostly price buyers that will accept the lesser cars…..the picky high dollar buyers have no interest and will not buy average cars even when the prices are much lower for such cars…it is not what they want so they won’t even look at them.
2- Before the auctions started earlier in the week I analyzed ALL of the cars of the type that I have interest in and far less than 10 cars in total from all the auction companies that even mildly interested me…cars that would have been good enough for me to consider although I don’t buy/sell at auctions regularly.
3- I did not attend but spoke to several very knowledgeable colleagues/clients that did attend and they also confirmed the same…..one guy said “looks like a Craigslist parking lot”…another said “the worst tomatoes at the supermarket…bruised, dented and picked over”
4- Except for a few specific instances the best cars continue to be bought/sold privately…..dealer/client, client/dealer, dealer/dealer, client/client….most people whether it be dealer or individual that has a truly GREAT car does not have to deal with the headache/risk PITA of dealing with auctions…..many people (myself included/Mr OCD) don’t want strangers climbing all over, touching, pawing their cars for several days and then the car comes home worse for wear!
5- Every guy/dealer that has an air-cooled 911 and a bottle of Armor All thinks their car is worth a fortune which is not the case….I’m exaggerating of course but I think you get the point.
6- The cars in AZ were average but the expectations were HIGH.....too high reserves/asks for average/below average cars.
7- The few great cars that were out there and there were just a few, did well and brought correct prices……and some of the decent but not the best did fine as well.
8- The gap between the superstar cars and the average/below average cars will continue to widen because the supply of the super exceptional virgin air cooled cars continues to diminish as they get absorbed into collections, exported etc…there simply are no more being made for almost 20 years now and have been undervalued for years.
9- The chit chat in the vintage Ferrari market is saying the same almost word for word……the cars are picked over now to a certain degree and when a truly great example surfaces it brings strong money in most cases.
10- As far as Seinfeld selling his 3 cars at Amelia auction coming soon, don’t read too much into that as Mr. S is a VERY savvy collector and does sell cars out of his large collection on a somewhat regular basis from time to time…for him to sell 3 cars is nothing.
11- With few exceptions and there are some from time to time, most 911’s at auction many times are problem cars that people can’t get rid of. As I said there are exceptions but more often than not this is the case.
Not trying to be a know it all but just wanted to add my two cents!
Thank for listening you guys!
Ray Joseph
RPM Sports Cars
Everything he says I agree with and support fully; the only error in his post is that Seinfeld is actually consigning 17 cars at Amelia, not just the three publicized thus far.
02-01-2016, 09:37 PM
#30
Hi Guys- As a dealer I rarely post here as I think this forum is better suited for individuals, but since I also have a substantial collection as well and keeping my finger on the pulse of the market at all times I wanted to add some info and opinions that you guys might find helpful in terms of the recent auctions this past weekend in Scottsdale. As always it’s just one guys opinion but an experienced and knowledgeable opinion ( I think..haha!)
1- If you casually glance at the auction results you might rightly think prices were down some at the AZ auctions… but… and this is a BIG BUT… most of the consignments were either below average/poor, average or slightly above average…very very few cars were super low mile best of the best garage queens that collectors and the highest end dealers are searching everywhere for. You have to remember the picky collectors that are willing to spend for the very best are the guys that pay the strong/high prices…when you lose that type of buyer’s interest you are left with mostly price buyers that will accept the lesser cars…..the picky high dollar buyers have no interest and will not buy average cars even when the prices are much lower for such cars…it is not what they want so they won’t even look at them.
2- Before the auctions started earlier in the week I analyzed ALL of the cars of the type that I have interest in and far less than 10 cars in total from all the auction companies that even mildly interested me…cars that would have been good enough for me to consider although I don’t buy/sell at auctions regularly.
3- I did not attend but spoke to several very knowledgeable colleagues/clients that did attend and they also confirmed the same…..one guy said “looks like a Craigslist parking lot”…another said “the worst tomatoes at the supermarket…bruised, dented and picked over”
4- Except for a few specific instances the best cars continue to be bought/sold privately…..dealer/client, client/dealer, dealer/dealer, client/client….most people whether it be dealer or individual that has a truly GREAT car does not have to deal with the headache/risk PITA of dealing with auctions…..many people (myself included/Mr OCD) don’t want strangers climbing all over, touching, pawing their cars for several days and then the car comes home worse for wear!
5- Every guy/dealer that has an air-cooled 911 and a bottle of Armor All thinks their car is worth a fortune which is not the case….I’m exaggerating of course but I think you get the point.
6- The cars in AZ were average but the expectations were HIGH.....too high reserves/asks for average/below average cars.
7- The few great cars that were out there and there were just a few, did well and brought correct prices……and some of the decent but not the best did fine as well.
8- The gap between the superstar cars and the average/below average cars will continue to widen because the supply of the super exceptional virgin air cooled cars continues to diminish as they get absorbed into collections, exported etc…there simply are no more being made for almost 20 years now and have been undervalued for years.
9- The chit chat in the vintage Ferrari market is saying the same almost word for word……the cars are picked over now to a certain degree and when a truly great example surfaces it brings strong money in most cases.
10- As far as Seinfeld selling his 3 cars at Amelia auction coming soon, don’t read too much into that as Mr. S is a VERY savvy collector and does sell cars out of his large collection on a somewhat regular basis from time to time…for him to sell 3 cars is nothing.
11- With few exceptions and there are some from time to time, most 911’s at auction many times are problem cars that people can’t get rid of. As I said there are exceptions but more often than not this is the case.
Not trying to be a know it all but just wanted to add my two cents!
Thank for listening you guys!
Ray Joseph
RPM Sports Cars
1- If you casually glance at the auction results you might rightly think prices were down some at the AZ auctions… but… and this is a BIG BUT… most of the consignments were either below average/poor, average or slightly above average…very very few cars were super low mile best of the best garage queens that collectors and the highest end dealers are searching everywhere for. You have to remember the picky collectors that are willing to spend for the very best are the guys that pay the strong/high prices…when you lose that type of buyer’s interest you are left with mostly price buyers that will accept the lesser cars…..the picky high dollar buyers have no interest and will not buy average cars even when the prices are much lower for such cars…it is not what they want so they won’t even look at them.
2- Before the auctions started earlier in the week I analyzed ALL of the cars of the type that I have interest in and far less than 10 cars in total from all the auction companies that even mildly interested me…cars that would have been good enough for me to consider although I don’t buy/sell at auctions regularly.
3- I did not attend but spoke to several very knowledgeable colleagues/clients that did attend and they also confirmed the same…..one guy said “looks like a Craigslist parking lot”…another said “the worst tomatoes at the supermarket…bruised, dented and picked over”
4- Except for a few specific instances the best cars continue to be bought/sold privately…..dealer/client, client/dealer, dealer/dealer, client/client….most people whether it be dealer or individual that has a truly GREAT car does not have to deal with the headache/risk PITA of dealing with auctions…..many people (myself included/Mr OCD) don’t want strangers climbing all over, touching, pawing their cars for several days and then the car comes home worse for wear!
5- Every guy/dealer that has an air-cooled 911 and a bottle of Armor All thinks their car is worth a fortune which is not the case….I’m exaggerating of course but I think you get the point.
6- The cars in AZ were average but the expectations were HIGH.....too high reserves/asks for average/below average cars.
7- The few great cars that were out there and there were just a few, did well and brought correct prices……and some of the decent but not the best did fine as well.
8- The gap between the superstar cars and the average/below average cars will continue to widen because the supply of the super exceptional virgin air cooled cars continues to diminish as they get absorbed into collections, exported etc…there simply are no more being made for almost 20 years now and have been undervalued for years.
9- The chit chat in the vintage Ferrari market is saying the same almost word for word……the cars are picked over now to a certain degree and when a truly great example surfaces it brings strong money in most cases.
10- As far as Seinfeld selling his 3 cars at Amelia auction coming soon, don’t read too much into that as Mr. S is a VERY savvy collector and does sell cars out of his large collection on a somewhat regular basis from time to time…for him to sell 3 cars is nothing.
11- With few exceptions and there are some from time to time, most 911’s at auction many times are problem cars that people can’t get rid of. As I said there are exceptions but more often than not this is the case.
Not trying to be a know it all but just wanted to add my two cents!
Thank for listening you guys!
Ray Joseph
RPM Sports Cars
However, while the best quality cars always deserve a premium the prices still will fluctuate up and down with the overall market. Maybe a 20%- 30% premium for a top quality example might stay constant but thats 20-30% above a number that will fluctuate over time with the market, and currently the market is having a much needed breather/pause/correction.