Elephant Sport Bushings - Rear Suspension
10-18-2016, 06:52 PM
#16
Thanks Bill. Yes, I understood from reading your previous comments in other threads that RS uses same bushings as stock on toe and camber arms. From your statements earlier in the thread it sounds like its worthwhile to use Elephant sport bushings on the toe arm, so I was wondering if its worth using sport bushings on the camber arm as well. Sounds like you are recommending leaving the camber arm bushings at stock hardness?
Yes this is a spirited street use car.
Yes this is a spirited street use car.
full mono-ball is as much better than the RS as the RS is better than stock.
10-27-2016, 11:45 AM
#17
Rennlist Member
I just completed a similar rounds of upgrades. On the front you really only need to replace the leading A arm bushing if going OEM or RS. I went with Walrod Poly.
The rear you only need to do the trailing A arm bushing and kinematic toe. I used ERP RS. The stock camber and toe already have bushing that are more robust than RS. See attached pic.
I prefer a solid toe link in the rear over stock setup. Slight downgrade in NVH but nothing really worth mentioning. I like the Elephant Racing design (Rennline too) over Tarret.
Lastly the solid sub frame mounts do wonders for the rear with almost no downside. Pretty easy and cheap to do.
The rear you only need to do the trailing A arm bushing and kinematic toe. I used ERP RS. The stock camber and toe already have bushing that are more robust than RS. See attached pic.
I prefer a solid toe link in the rear over stock setup. Slight downgrade in NVH but nothing really worth mentioning. I like the Elephant Racing design (Rennline too) over Tarret.
Lastly the solid sub frame mounts do wonders for the rear with almost no downside. Pretty easy and cheap to do.
10-27-2016, 01:11 PM
#18
I just completed a similar rounds of upgrades. On the front you really only need to replace the leading A arm bushing if going OEM or RS. I went with Walrod Poly.
The rear you only need to do the trailing A arm bushing and kinematic toe. I used ERP RS. The stock camber and toe already have bushing that are more robust than RS. See attached pic.
I prefer a solid toe link in the rear over stock setup. Slight downgrade in NVH but nothing really worth mentioning. I like the Elephant Racing design (Rennline too) over Tarret.
Lastly the solid sub frame mounts do wonders for the rear with almost no downside. Pretty easy and cheap to do.
The rear you only need to do the trailing A arm bushing and kinematic toe. I used ERP RS. The stock camber and toe already have bushing that are more robust than RS. See attached pic.
I prefer a solid toe link in the rear over stock setup. Slight downgrade in NVH but nothing really worth mentioning. I like the Elephant Racing design (Rennline too) over Tarret.
Lastly the solid sub frame mounts do wonders for the rear with almost no downside. Pretty easy and cheap to do.
The rear you only need to do the trailing A arm bushing and kinematic toe. I used ERP RS. The stock camber and toe already have bushing that are more robust than RS. See attached pic.
I prefer a solid toe link in the rear over stock setup. Slight downgrade in NVH but nothing really worth mentioning. I like the Elephant Racing design (Rennline too) over Tarret.
On the front you really only need to replace the leading A arm bushing if going OEM or RS. I went with Walrod Poly.
Lastly the solid sub frame mounts do wonders for the rear with almost no downside. Pretty easy and cheap to do.
10-27-2016, 01:24 PM
#19
"Lastly the solid sub frame mounts do wonders for the rear with almost no downside. Pretty easy and cheap to do".
"For a lowered car)below RS) yes, this mod moves the entire rear suspension up into the chassis and corrects some rear bump steer issues on such cars".
__________________
Rear bump steer Bill?
"For a lowered car)below RS) yes, this mod moves the entire rear suspension up into the chassis and corrects some rear bump steer issues on such cars".
__________________
Rear bump steer Bill?
Last edited by user 723923490; 10-27-2016 at 01:32 PM. Reason: add quote
10-27-2016, 03:26 PM
#20
"Lastly the solid sub frame mounts do wonders for the rear with almost no downside. Pretty easy and cheap to do".
"For a lowered car)below RS) yes, this mod moves the entire rear suspension up into the chassis and corrects some rear bump steer issues on such cars".
__________________
Rear bump steer Bill?
"For a lowered car)below RS) yes, this mod moves the entire rear suspension up into the chassis and corrects some rear bump steer issues on such cars".
__________________
Rear bump steer Bill?
10-27-2016, 08:52 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
I suppose you could only replace the leading leg of the front A-arm, but if you intended to emulate an RS you would only replace the trailing leg bush w/ a stiffer rubber one. Even better control of the front suspension derives from replacing both legs of the A-arms w/ something w/ less give, best is mono-ball as there is no play and no stiction, poly is the cheap way if you don't mind potential wear and noise issues, sport rubber is what the factory chose for durability and general sporting use.
I think the poly is the best material for the front lower A arms. Without starting a major debate I will explain why. The Poly eliminates the kinematic toe and offer the best front/rear support with great cushioning during braking. The factory style bushing move back and forth to much for my liking and the monoballs have no cushion at all. Sure proper fitment is key to minimize stiction and it does require lube from time to time but IMHO the upside is well worth the downsides.
Bill thanks again for your contributions here. They played a BIG role in helping me sort through my suspension.
10-27-2016, 08:55 PM
#22
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
What do you think about RS where you can get it in the rear and ERP sport for the rest of the bushings (including subframe)? That way all bushings are 25% stiffer than stock 993 and probably last a bit longer too, due to material density.
10-28-2016, 09:33 AM
#23
*******
I know the front A arm is a touchy subject for most. I have my opinions based on certain beliefs and experiences. I suggested front only based on what seems to have the most all the play. The rear most bushing does not seem to wear in the same manner. I don't like the ERP bushing for that and would take the factory one (or better yet factory RS) over a ERP there.
I think the poly is the best material for the front lower A arms. Without starting a major debate I will explain why. The Poly eliminates the kinematic toe and offer the best front/rear support with great cushioning during braking. The factory style bushing move back and forth to much for my liking and the monoballs have no cushion at all. Sure proper fitment is key to minimize stiction and it does require lube from time to time but IMHO the upside is well worth the downsides.
I agree it's best for a lowered car. I should have prefaced my comments with that.
Bill thanks again for your contributions here. They played a BIG role in helping me sort through my suspension.
I know the front A arm is a touchy subject for most. I have my opinions based on certain beliefs and experiences. I suggested front only based on what seems to have the most all the play. The rear most bushing does not seem to wear in the same manner. I don't like the ERP bushing for that and would take the factory one (or better yet factory RS) over a ERP there.
I think the poly is the best material for the front lower A arms. Without starting a major debate I will explain why. The Poly eliminates the kinematic toe and offer the best front/rear support with great cushioning during braking. The factory style bushing move back and forth to much for my liking and the monoballs have no cushion at all. Sure proper fitment is key to minimize stiction and it does require lube from time to time but IMHO the upside is well worth the downsides.
I agree it's best for a lowered car. I should have prefaced my comments with that.
Bill thanks again for your contributions here. They played a BIG role in helping me sort through my suspension.
I know the front A arm is a touchy subject for most. I have my opinions based on certain beliefs and experiences. I suggested front only based on what seems to have the most all the play. The rear most bushing does not seem to wear in the same manner. I don't like the ERP bushing for that and would take the factory one (or better yet factory RS) over a ERP there.
I'm confused by ERP are you referencing to Elephant Racing or E.R.P. Supension, 2 different companies
Elephant Racing sells both regular and sport rubber bushes for either leg of the front A-arm, these are the same as used oe.
I think the poly is the best material for the front lower A arms. Without starting a major debate I will explain why. The Poly eliminates the kinematic toe and offer the best front/rear support with great cushioning during braking. The factory style bushing move back and forth to much for my liking and the monoballs have no cushion at all. Sure proper fitment is key to minimize stiction and it does require lube from time to time but IMHO the upside is well worth the downsides.
least deflection most precision, least stiction is mono-ball
poly is a close next in terms of deflection and precision but is at the mercy of lubrication, w/o lube the poly wears and makes noise and adds stiction
sport rubber is next
regular rubber last
10-29-2016, 01:20 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
11-23-2016, 04:37 PM
#25
Burning Brakes
In a 993 the rear A-arm leading leg has a sealed mono-ball, can't get stiffer than that. They do get loosey goosey w/ age.
Buy new RS rear A-arms, this is the best way to get new outer ball joint new leading mono-ball joint and new stiffer rubber bush for the trailing leg. Only the KT arm needs to have a stiffer bush, best to buy 2x RS KT arms to accomplish that, again you get new outer ball joints and new stiffer rubber inners.
The other arms are the same on RS and normal, so replace any that are worn, the one that goes first is the toe arms, for track use mono-***** on these for street use you can fit stiffer rubber here too, though it's not absolutely necessary stiffer here does add precision.
complementary front will be stiffer rubber on at least the trailing A-arm leg, both leading and trailing is a bit more precise
Buy new RS rear A-arms, this is the best way to get new outer ball joint new leading mono-ball joint and new stiffer rubber bush for the trailing leg. Only the KT arm needs to have a stiffer bush, best to buy 2x RS KT arms to accomplish that, again you get new outer ball joints and new stiffer rubber inners.
The other arms are the same on RS and normal, so replace any that are worn, the one that goes first is the toe arms, for track use mono-***** on these for street use you can fit stiffer rubber here too, though it's not absolutely necessary stiffer here does add precision.
complementary front will be stiffer rubber on at least the trailing A-arm leg, both leading and trailing is a bit more precise
I will be going Elephant Sport hardness everywhere else but am wondering about how about the upper front link? that would be the camber adjuster link. do you know if the RS is stiffer rubber? IF so, lets get that as well. then, your done.
if not, i guess we can use elephant harder rubber on those.....thanks Jordan
11-23-2016, 05:52 PM
#26
Great guidance Bill, thank you. I'm undertaking this refresh right now so are you able to help identify the Porsche SKU# for the RS A Arms (I need 2 one each side?) and also 2 (one each side?) for the KT arms so I can order those? Any input on best online source for price?
I will be going Elephant Sport hardness everywhere else but am wondering about how about the upper front link? that would be the camber adjuster link. do you know if the RS is stiffer rubber? IF so, lets get that as well. then, your done.
if not, i guess we can use elephant harder rubber on those.....thanks Jordan
I will be going Elephant Sport hardness everywhere else but am wondering about how about the upper front link? that would be the camber adjuster link. do you know if the RS is stiffer rubber? IF so, lets get that as well. then, your done.
if not, i guess we can use elephant harder rubber on those.....thanks Jordan
93.331.045.80 Kinematic Control Arm x2 RS, top rear
993.331.041.81 A arm /L RS RS
993.331.042.81 A arm /R RS RS
993.331.217.80 Eccentric screw x2 top forward inner camber
993.331.219.80 Eccentric washer x2 top forward inner camber
This is the stock camber arm and also used on the RS, this one doesn't use stiffer rubber
993.331.047.03 x2 top forward camber
When I used the RS parts the above is what I had w/ Tarret mono-ball toe links + locks
Some guys are going a step further and changing the cambers link to the stiffer rubber bush too. I see that as a positive step
going from stock to full RS was a huge positive step and then going from RS to full RSR mono-***** was as big a positive step, I see the extra sport bush on the camber links(w/ RS KT and A) w/ either mono-ball or sport rubber toe links as in between RS and RSR
11-24-2016, 07:49 PM
#28
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Bill, why do you include the eccentric washers and screws in your part list? Are these different than the RS part? Or do you recommend replacing them as a matter of course?
11-26-2016, 09:41 AM
#29
There is a 2mm increase in the travel provided by the RS camber adjuster compared to the standard one. Camber will still be limited to A little less than ~-2.8° which is fine for all street and most track use. To get more you have to go to turnbuckle arms.
11-26-2016, 10:38 AM
#30
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Ok that leads me to a couple other questions:
1) The eccentrics you list above are stock or RS?
2) Why just the camber eccentrics, rather than listing all the arm eccentrics?
1) The eccentrics you list above are stock or RS?
2) Why just the camber eccentrics, rather than listing all the arm eccentrics?