Loose front end
10-18-2016, 10:20 PM
#61
these have seemed very robust to me, but I suppose they are under lots of stress.
I changed them on my track car last year only because the front suspension was on the ground, bought the lemfoerder version for 60 bucks each. the old felt good, no play, so they are on a shelf as spares.
be nice to find a way to test the ball joints, especially since if you are moving to the rear the ball joint end isn't replaceable except as the entire arm.
what's up with the staggered camber side to side?
it is outside the margin of error so there must be a reason for more camber on the right side than left.
10-19-2016, 12:31 AM
#62
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
When I compared the new balljoints to the old, they felt much stiffer to move by hand, but I still couldn't find any play. After I felt the difference driving, I figured they must need a large load to cause play and I couldn't get enough leverage on them by hand to make it show.
For the rear end, this experience convinced me to replace all the arms rather than just doing bushings. I'm going to have to assume at this mileage they are all getting soft and replace accordingly. I'd rather do the job completely and thoroughly rather than save some money and then second guess myself.
Regarding the alignment, I asked the mechanic about that and he told me he did it to resist drifting right due to road crown. When I dropped it off, I asked him to equalize caster since he had added lots of cross-caster last time and I didn't want it this time. Since I didn't specifically ask for no cross-camber, he added that instead <sigh>. I drove over 30 miles today in various conditions from high speed interstate to wildly winding roads and it drives great so I'm going to leave it as it is. Next time I'll either just let him do what he wants (which he seems to do anyway) or specify no cross caster AND no cross camber though I'm scared to find out what he'll do to me in that case...
As far as I can tell he does a good job, but he has strong opinions about how the car should be aligned and doesn't want to be told differently.
For the rear end, this experience convinced me to replace all the arms rather than just doing bushings. I'm going to have to assume at this mileage they are all getting soft and replace accordingly. I'd rather do the job completely and thoroughly rather than save some money and then second guess myself.
Regarding the alignment, I asked the mechanic about that and he told me he did it to resist drifting right due to road crown. When I dropped it off, I asked him to equalize caster since he had added lots of cross-caster last time and I didn't want it this time. Since I didn't specifically ask for no cross-camber, he added that instead <sigh>. I drove over 30 miles today in various conditions from high speed interstate to wildly winding roads and it drives great so I'm going to leave it as it is. Next time I'll either just let him do what he wants (which he seems to do anyway) or specify no cross caster AND no cross camber though I'm scared to find out what he'll do to me in that case...
As far as I can tell he does a good job, but he has strong opinions about how the car should be aligned and doesn't want to be told differently.
10-19-2016, 01:24 AM
#63
Rennlist Member
I got the alignment done today and hit my favorite twisty roads. Front end is totally locked down now and the issue is completely, 100% gone.
I made a bunch of changes in the course of this thread and was able to test drive before and after each, so as a recap here's what I did in descending order from what made the most difference to what made the least:
1) Front control arm bushings. I changed from worn out stock to new ER sport. Huge difference in steering feel and got rid of the intermittent shaking/wobbling i could feel through the wheel.
2) Ball joints. They didn't feel worn out when I inspected them by hand, but it turns out they were. Replacing these with new units removed the slight hunting back and forth that I was noticing at highway speeds.
3) Tarret solid inner tie rod + stock outer tie rod. I don't think mine were very worn, so the originals weren't causing problems but the change from stock to solid resulted in a very nice improvement in steering feel. Suddenly the road feel was alive.
4) Lowering the front end from ~150mm to ~140mm. Made the front end feel slightly more alive and got rid of the numb feeling I was getting in certain corners and at higher speeds.
5) Steering rack bushings. I replaced the originals, which seemed pretty soft, with the blue poly bushings available on eBay. I think I noticed a difference but if so, it was not very pronounced. Nice to have them in and it was a cheap/easy change, so I don't see any downside. I accidentally ordered 4 short bolts so had to reuse the long bolts and will replace those once the replacements arrive. So if you are going to do it, be sure you get 2 of the 60mm and 2 of the 80mm bolts.
Every change did result in an improvement and while it was a lot of work it was worth it. Put all the changes together and the steering now feels telepathic and every bit as good as I remember from the manual rack on my old RS America. If anything it might be a little better since the front end has more bite and the power assist makes driving easier.
Thanks to everyone that helped me out and I hope this thread will be helpful to others as well.
Now I'm ready to tackle my rear suspension!
I made a bunch of changes in the course of this thread and was able to test drive before and after each, so as a recap here's what I did in descending order from what made the most difference to what made the least:
1) Front control arm bushings. I changed from worn out stock to new ER sport. Huge difference in steering feel and got rid of the intermittent shaking/wobbling i could feel through the wheel.
2) Ball joints. They didn't feel worn out when I inspected them by hand, but it turns out they were. Replacing these with new units removed the slight hunting back and forth that I was noticing at highway speeds.
3) Tarret solid inner tie rod + stock outer tie rod. I don't think mine were very worn, so the originals weren't causing problems but the change from stock to solid resulted in a very nice improvement in steering feel. Suddenly the road feel was alive.
4) Lowering the front end from ~150mm to ~140mm. Made the front end feel slightly more alive and got rid of the numb feeling I was getting in certain corners and at higher speeds.
5) Steering rack bushings. I replaced the originals, which seemed pretty soft, with the blue poly bushings available on eBay. I think I noticed a difference but if so, it was not very pronounced. Nice to have them in and it was a cheap/easy change, so I don't see any downside. I accidentally ordered 4 short bolts so had to reuse the long bolts and will replace those once the replacements arrive. So if you are going to do it, be sure you get 2 of the 60mm and 2 of the 80mm bolts.
Every change did result in an improvement and while it was a lot of work it was worth it. Put all the changes together and the steering now feels telepathic and every bit as good as I remember from the manual rack on my old RS America. If anything it might be a little better since the front end has more bite and the power assist makes driving easier.
Thanks to everyone that helped me out and I hope this thread will be helpful to others as well.
Now I'm ready to tackle my rear suspension!
I had to back away from the slippery slope a bit and postpone replacing the stock springs and ancient Monroes for a least a couple of months, unfortunately, but getting used to things before modifying is good too.
On the tie rods, did you reuse your original stock outers with the Tarret inners, or did you also buy a new set of stock tie rods and mix and match?
I don't want to buy two sets of rods and am annoyed that I apparently have to mix and match to get solid inner with stock outer. RS carriers are not in my near future.
10-19-2016, 10:17 AM
#64
Hey Squidge,
I used the stock tie rods with ER sport bushings and new ball joints. It transformed the car. For a road car the stock tie rods are fine. Ferdinand put the flexible element into the tie rods for a reason. Besides, you can always pin them later on if you want.
I used the stock tie rods with ER sport bushings and new ball joints. It transformed the car. For a road car the stock tie rods are fine. Ferdinand put the flexible element into the tie rods for a reason. Besides, you can always pin them later on if you want.
10-19-2016, 10:25 AM
#65
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I did mix and match for tie-rods. I bought the stock tie-rod from ER and bought the RSR inner from Tarrett. Its a couple hundred extra but it gave me extra confidence knowing I had the stock inner available in case I didn't like the solid inner.
As it turns out, I like it a lot. The steering feel is more direct and the car goes exactly where I point it. Some of the GT feeling of the 993 is gone, replaced by the more honest/direct feeling of older 911s. The stock tie-rod is great too, you won't be disappointed, but the solid inner to me was worth the added trouble and expense.
If you are willing to wait a few weeks, the guys at ER told me they have a new tie-rod design about to hit the market. It has a solid inner and a slightly redesigned outer to reduce bump-steer on lowered cars, but still fits the stock wheel carrier. Seems like it could be best of both worlds, without needing to go to the extra expense of RS wheel carriers and outers.
I seriously considered it, but since I was already in the middle of my project I didn't want to pause half-done, waiting.
Let us know how things turn out when you make your changes.
As it turns out, I like it a lot. The steering feel is more direct and the car goes exactly where I point it. Some of the GT feeling of the 993 is gone, replaced by the more honest/direct feeling of older 911s. The stock tie-rod is great too, you won't be disappointed, but the solid inner to me was worth the added trouble and expense.
If you are willing to wait a few weeks, the guys at ER told me they have a new tie-rod design about to hit the market. It has a solid inner and a slightly redesigned outer to reduce bump-steer on lowered cars, but still fits the stock wheel carrier. Seems like it could be best of both worlds, without needing to go to the extra expense of RS wheel carriers and outers.
I seriously considered it, but since I was already in the middle of my project I didn't want to pause half-done, waiting.
Let us know how things turn out when you make your changes.
Last edited by Tlaloc75; 10-19-2016 at 02:19 PM.
10-19-2016, 01:58 PM
#66
Rennlist Member
AllanH -- you're right, there was a reason for the flexible element in the tie rods, but it's not a positive like you think. It was added to make the car more compliant for all the non-enthusiasts who thought the 964 was too hardcore. The 993 had to appeal to a broader audience (you know, dentists.)
I did basically the same procedure on my 128i by swapping in M3 control arms and tension rods and it made a massive difference to the steering feel. I want this in my 993.
Tlaloc, thanks for the tip on the new Elephant tie rods! I called them up this morning and they confirmed they're set to release them next week. Bonus: their shop is ten minutes from my house, so I can hopefully pick up a set and not have to change my timing for getting this done.
I did basically the same procedure on my 128i by swapping in M3 control arms and tension rods and it made a massive difference to the steering feel. I want this in my 993.
Tlaloc, thanks for the tip on the new Elephant tie rods! I called them up this morning and they confirmed they're set to release them next week. Bonus: their shop is ten minutes from my house, so I can hopefully pick up a set and not have to change my timing for getting this done.
10-19-2016, 02:07 PM
#67
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
That's great, let me know how they work out.
I think shocks should be very high on your list. Springs are probably fine but replacing old shocks will make a massive difference. I have RoW M030 springs with Bilstein HD shocks and they are great. Mine are getting a little old so I'll probably replace or re-valve them soon, but even old they feel quite good.
I think shocks should be very high on your list. Springs are probably fine but replacing old shocks will make a massive difference. I have RoW M030 springs with Bilstein HD shocks and they are great. Mine are getting a little old so I'll probably replace or re-valve them soon, but even old they feel quite good.
10-19-2016, 02:11 PM
#68
Drifting
If you are willing to wait a few weeks, the guys at ER told me they have a new tie-rod design about to hit the market. It has a solid inner and a slightly redesigned outer to reduce bump-steer on lowered cars, but still fits the stock wheel carrier. Seems like it could be best of both worlds, without needing to go to the extra expense of RS wheel carriers and outers.
Now that sounds like a great product ER is coming out with!
10-19-2016, 02:46 PM
#69
Rennlist Member
Officially put in an order for the ER tie rods, picking up next week tentatively. They were $550 for the pair which seems quite fair. I'll start a new thread with photos and details once they're in hand.
Shocks and springs are absolutely on my list (I'm thinking M030 ROW and Bilstein HD/B6, as well.) I just need to spread the cost out a little bit to keep my wife happy.
Shocks and springs are absolutely on my list (I'm thinking M030 ROW and Bilstein HD/B6, as well.) I just need to spread the cost out a little bit to keep my wife happy.
10-19-2016, 02:55 PM
#70
Rennlist Member
AllanH -- you're right, there was a reason for the flexible element in the tie rods, but it's not a positive like you think. It was added to make the car more compliant for all the non-enthusiasts who thought the 964 was too hardcore. The 993 had to appeal to a broader audience (you know, dentists.)
I did basically the same procedure on my 128i by swapping in M3 control arms and tension rods and it made a massive difference to the steering feel. I want this in my 993.
Tlaloc, thanks for the tip on the new Elephant tie rods! I called them up this morning and they confirmed they're set to release them next week. Bonus: their shop is ten minutes from my house, so I can hopefully pick up a set and not have to change my timing for getting this done.
I did basically the same procedure on my 128i by swapping in M3 control arms and tension rods and it made a massive difference to the steering feel. I want this in my 993.
Tlaloc, thanks for the tip on the new Elephant tie rods! I called them up this morning and they confirmed they're set to release them next week. Bonus: their shop is ten minutes from my house, so I can hopefully pick up a set and not have to change my timing for getting this done.
I saw they have a 996 part listed on their site. Nothing for 993 yet
http://www.elephantracing.com/suspen...htm#bump_steer
Last edited by 911F1; 10-19-2016 at 03:18 PM.
10-19-2016, 03:43 PM
#71
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
The new part from ER is not bump steer adjustable. It has a slightly different angle at the end and the bend is closer to the end as well. I saw a picture of a prototype and it looked cool, but definitely not adjustable.
10-24-2016, 07:26 PM
#73
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Took the car out for a drive today and noticed it felt a little different in the front end. When I got home I measured ride height and its settled to 136/134 left and right. Before the alignment I had set it to 141/140.
What do you think could have caused it to change and settle ~5mm lower?
Can I get away with raising a couple of mm without another alignment?
What do you think could have caused it to change and settle ~5mm lower?
Can I get away with raising a couple of mm without another alignment?
10-25-2016, 09:27 AM
#74
Took the car out for a drive today and noticed it felt a little different in the front end. When I got home I measured ride height and its settled to 136/134 left and right. Before the alignment I had set it to 141/140.
What do you think could have caused it to change and settle ~5mm lower?
Can I get away with raising a couple of mm without another alignment?
What do you think could have caused it to change and settle ~5mm lower?
Can I get away with raising a couple of mm without another alignment?
10-25-2016, 10:36 AM
#75
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I don't want to be overly OCD about this but also want the car to be 'right'
Do you think its worth rising it up to get above 140mm again? Would it need another alignment.. or maybe by bringing it back to where it was it'd correct the alignment.
In the future is it better to drive the car for a while after making height changes before getting an alignment? I drove a few miles, didn't think I'd need to do more than that.
Do you think its worth rising it up to get above 140mm again? Would it need another alignment.. or maybe by bringing it back to where it was it'd correct the alignment.
In the future is it better to drive the car for a while after making height changes before getting an alignment? I drove a few miles, didn't think I'd need to do more than that.
Last edited by Tlaloc75; 10-25-2016 at 10:58 AM.