Loose front end
10-04-2016, 08:03 PM
#46
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Also remember, factory alignment settings, are not necessarily the best for handling. They're meant to encompass the broadest amount of drivers, with the least amount of surprises (which also, may mean numb response), and reduce tire wear. Determine what your driving level is, use for car, and what you deem as acceptable tire wear (rear). Get all original rubber replaced, then get it set up, and go enjoy.
10-05-2016, 10:07 PM
#47
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
BillV thank you for your tire pressure recommendation. I've tried many different pressure combos trying to find what works best and your suggestion of 33/35 felt the best.
10-10-2016, 09:03 PM
#48
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Update: I replaced the front control arm ball joints today and also retightened each of the control arm bushing bolts with suspension at normal location (not drooped).
Result: The issue is fixed! Car drives great and the front end feels really solid. The old ball joints looked fine. The boots were intact, they felt fine and I couldn't detect any play in them by manually moving them. But... it appears they were worn out and at normal suspension loads they must have had a little play.
Moral of the story: When replacing the control arm bushings, do the balljoints at the same time. They are a wear item, like the bushings, and it isn't obvious when they are worn out.
I'm still planning on replacing the rack bushings and lowering the front end slightly, so I'll report back on that and let everyone know if it makes any additional difference.
Result: The issue is fixed! Car drives great and the front end feels really solid. The old ball joints looked fine. The boots were intact, they felt fine and I couldn't detect any play in them by manually moving them. But... it appears they were worn out and at normal suspension loads they must have had a little play.
Moral of the story: When replacing the control arm bushings, do the balljoints at the same time. They are a wear item, like the bushings, and it isn't obvious when they are worn out.
I'm still planning on replacing the rack bushings and lowering the front end slightly, so I'll report back on that and let everyone know if it makes any additional difference.
10-16-2016, 08:06 PM
#50
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I lowered front end 15mm today and replaced the steering rack bushings with poly. I can feel some differences, but I think a lot of it is increased camber from lowering. I'm getting an alignment on Tuesday to bring everything back into spec and will report back.
Lowering the car took over 4 hours, lots of trial and error to get it right. Rack bushings were pretty easy, less than hour to replace.
Ride height is now:
- FL: 135mm
- FR: 134mm
- Rl: 128mm
- RR: 127mm
Lowering the car took over 4 hours, lots of trial and error to get it right. Rack bushings were pretty easy, less than hour to replace.
Ride height is now:
- FL: 135mm
- FR: 134mm
- Rl: 128mm
- RR: 127mm
10-16-2016, 10:41 PM
#52
Ride height is now:
- FL: 135mm
- FR: 134mm
- Rl: 128mm
- RR: 127mm
- FL: 135mm
- FR: 134mm
- Rl: 128mm
- RR: 127mm
the front is at the low end of RoW M030 which is also the high end of RS, so right on the edge of wanting RS wheel carrier and outer tie rods, if keeping the wheel carriers stock I'd raise the front to ~140mm maybe a bit higher and probably leave the rear alone
you rear is right at RoW M030 spec if it matched the front it would be ~117mm
10-16-2016, 11:02 PM
#53
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I measured with a digital level on the door sill and it was at -.2, so not much rake. Not sure why, should I be showing more?
I'll raise it to 140mm tomorrow, so it'll be 10mm lower than what I had originally.
I'll raise it to 140mm tomorrow, so it'll be 10mm lower than what I had originally.
10-17-2016, 02:47 PM
#54
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I got it to 140/141 so I think i'm in a better height range now. Is it normal for:
1) Heights to be slightly different side to side?
2) Spring perches to be slightly different as well?
For instance my right side is lower at 140 vs 141 on the left but I had to raise the spring perch on the right side a bit higher than on the left to get to this measurement. When they were equal (measured threads with a tape measure), the right side was 3mm lower than left.
1) Heights to be slightly different side to side?
2) Spring perches to be slightly different as well?
For instance my right side is lower at 140 vs 141 on the left but I had to raise the spring perch on the right side a bit higher than on the left to get to this measurement. When they were equal (measured threads with a tape measure), the right side was 3mm lower than left.
10-17-2016, 02:55 PM
#55
Banned
10-17-2016, 03:09 PM
#56
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
That probably explains it. The left side was a little higher to start since it was corner balanced in the past. Since I didn't change anything in the rear, it would want to be a little higher on the left front as a result.
10-17-2016, 03:42 PM
#57
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Start with the basics:
Don't assume your alignment is good. Recheck the rear toe. if it is out your car will seem to wonder at highway speeds. Even if the adjustment was correctly set it may have slipped if not properly tightened down.
Don't assume your alignment is good. Recheck the rear toe. if it is out your car will seem to wonder at highway speeds. Even if the adjustment was correctly set it may have slipped if not properly tightened down.
10-17-2016, 06:29 PM
#58
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I had an alignment done two weeks ago (described earlier in the thread). I'm going in for another one tomorrow after the front end work I did this weekend.
Issue was resolved by replacing the ball joints. I went ahead with the rack bushings and the front end lowering because they seemed like a good idea and I like the idea of making the car drive even better.
First impression after the rack bushings and the lowering is that its a nice improvement. Steering feels even more direct and the front end feels more planted. Until I get the alignment I don't know for sure though, some of the difference I'm feeling is probably due to increased camber in the front end from lowering the car.
Issue was resolved by replacing the ball joints. I went ahead with the rack bushings and the front end lowering because they seemed like a good idea and I like the idea of making the car drive even better.
First impression after the rack bushings and the lowering is that its a nice improvement. Steering feels even more direct and the front end feels more planted. Until I get the alignment I don't know for sure though, some of the difference I'm feeling is probably due to increased camber in the front end from lowering the car.
10-18-2016, 05:43 PM
#59
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I got the alignment done today and hit my favorite twisty roads. Front end is totally locked down now and the issue is completely, 100% gone.
I made a bunch of changes in the course of this thread and was able to test drive before and after each, so as a recap here's what I did in descending order from what made the most difference to what made the least:
1) Front control arm bushings. I changed from worn out stock to new ER sport. Huge difference in steering feel and got rid of the intermittent shaking/wobbling i could feel through the wheel.
2) Ball joints. They didn't feel worn out when I inspected them by hand, but it turns out they were. Replacing these with new units removed the slight hunting back and forth that I was noticing at highway speeds.
3) Tarret solid inner tie rod + stock outer tie rod. I don't think mine were very worn, so the originals weren't causing problems but the change from stock to solid resulted in a very nice improvement in steering feel. Suddenly the road feel was alive.
4) Lowering the front end from ~150mm to ~140mm. Made the front end feel slightly more alive and got rid of the numb feeling I was getting in certain corners and at higher speeds.
5) Steering rack bushings. I replaced the originals, which seemed pretty soft, with the blue poly bushings available on eBay. I think I noticed a difference but if so, it was not very pronounced. Nice to have them in and it was a cheap/easy change, so I don't see any downside. I accidentally ordered 4 short bolts so had to reuse the long bolts and will replace those once the replacements arrive. So if you are going to do it, be sure you get 2 of the 60mm and 2 of the 80mm bolts.
Every change did result in an improvement and while it was a lot of work it was worth it. Put all the changes together and the steering now feels telepathic and every bit as good as I remember from the manual rack on my old RS America. If anything it might be a little better since the front end has more bite and the power assist makes driving easier.
Thanks to everyone that helped me out and I hope this thread will be helpful to others as well.
Now I'm ready to tackle my rear suspension!
I made a bunch of changes in the course of this thread and was able to test drive before and after each, so as a recap here's what I did in descending order from what made the most difference to what made the least:
1) Front control arm bushings. I changed from worn out stock to new ER sport. Huge difference in steering feel and got rid of the intermittent shaking/wobbling i could feel through the wheel.
2) Ball joints. They didn't feel worn out when I inspected them by hand, but it turns out they were. Replacing these with new units removed the slight hunting back and forth that I was noticing at highway speeds.
3) Tarret solid inner tie rod + stock outer tie rod. I don't think mine were very worn, so the originals weren't causing problems but the change from stock to solid resulted in a very nice improvement in steering feel. Suddenly the road feel was alive.
4) Lowering the front end from ~150mm to ~140mm. Made the front end feel slightly more alive and got rid of the numb feeling I was getting in certain corners and at higher speeds.
5) Steering rack bushings. I replaced the originals, which seemed pretty soft, with the blue poly bushings available on eBay. I think I noticed a difference but if so, it was not very pronounced. Nice to have them in and it was a cheap/easy change, so I don't see any downside. I accidentally ordered 4 short bolts so had to reuse the long bolts and will replace those once the replacements arrive. So if you are going to do it, be sure you get 2 of the 60mm and 2 of the 80mm bolts.
Every change did result in an improvement and while it was a lot of work it was worth it. Put all the changes together and the steering now feels telepathic and every bit as good as I remember from the manual rack on my old RS America. If anything it might be a little better since the front end has more bite and the power assist makes driving easier.
Thanks to everyone that helped me out and I hope this thread will be helpful to others as well.
Now I'm ready to tackle my rear suspension!
Last edited by Tlaloc75; 10-19-2016 at 12:36 AM.
10-18-2016, 05:48 PM
#60
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
As an additional note, here are my final alignment settings.
Camber:
- FL: -.4
- FR: -.8
- RL: -1.1
- RR: -1.4
Caster:
- FL: -5.6
- FR: -5.8
Toe:
- FL: 1/16
- FR: 1/16
- RL: 1/16
- RR: 1/8
Cross Camber:
- Front: .4
- Rear: .3
Cross Caster:
- Front: -.2
Total Toe:
- Front: 1/8
- Rear: 3/16
Thrust Angle: -.08
Camber:
- FL: -.4
- FR: -.8
- RL: -1.1
- RR: -1.4
Caster:
- FL: -5.6
- FR: -5.8
Toe:
- FL: 1/16
- FR: 1/16
- RL: 1/16
- RR: 1/8
Cross Camber:
- Front: .4
- Rear: .3
Cross Caster:
- Front: -.2
Total Toe:
- Front: 1/8
- Rear: 3/16
Thrust Angle: -.08
