993 C2 bushing options
05-04-2015, 07:47 AM
#1
Advanced
Thread Starter
993 C2 bushing options
Hello fellow Rennlisters,
long time reader, first time poster - I am European petrolhead who, despite his relatively young age of 27, felt hopelessly in love with aircooled Porsches. This culminated last summer when after years of crawing I finally purchased 95 993 C2 in polar silver with sole intent of turning her into proper weekend racer. Nearly year of planning went by and now I am finally pulling the trigger on the whole operation, which I will try to document in a separate built thread.
Now to my question - I am getting the suspension parts blasted, powder coated and reasembled with GT2 uprights, GT2 tie rods, Tarett drop links and ERP rear upper and lower control arms.
The bit I am now torn on is what bushings should I use. The main purpose of the car is 50% track and 50% spirited driving on mountain roads of various tarmac quality, altough none of them will be dusty B-roads. It will never see city centre nor I am concerned about ride quality or noise.
I talked with several people about using monoballs all around, some of them say it works outside of circuit, some of them it does not. I want the car to perform best at the circuit, while not trailing behind and jumping around hopelessly on a sunday cruise with friends. The only car with full monoballs that I experienced on public roads was EVO 8 and it was not that bad, altough the car is entirely different animal. The longevity of such suspension setup is also a question I think.
Do You guys have any experience with the Elephant racing rubber bushing in sport hardness or is there any other brand You could recommend?
Thanks a lot, Michal
long time reader, first time poster - I am European petrolhead who, despite his relatively young age of 27, felt hopelessly in love with aircooled Porsches. This culminated last summer when after years of crawing I finally purchased 95 993 C2 in polar silver with sole intent of turning her into proper weekend racer. Nearly year of planning went by and now I am finally pulling the trigger on the whole operation, which I will try to document in a separate built thread.
Now to my question - I am getting the suspension parts blasted, powder coated and reasembled with GT2 uprights, GT2 tie rods, Tarett drop links and ERP rear upper and lower control arms.
The bit I am now torn on is what bushings should I use. The main purpose of the car is 50% track and 50% spirited driving on mountain roads of various tarmac quality, altough none of them will be dusty B-roads. It will never see city centre nor I am concerned about ride quality or noise.
I talked with several people about using monoballs all around, some of them say it works outside of circuit, some of them it does not. I want the car to perform best at the circuit, while not trailing behind and jumping around hopelessly on a sunday cruise with friends. The only car with full monoballs that I experienced on public roads was EVO 8 and it was not that bad, altough the car is entirely different animal. The longevity of such suspension setup is also a question I think.
Do You guys have any experience with the Elephant racing rubber bushing in sport hardness or is there any other brand You could recommend?
Thanks a lot, Michal
05-04-2015, 08:03 AM
#2
Hello fellow Rennlisters,
long time reader, first time poster - I am European petrolhead who, despite his relatively young age of 27, felt hopelessly in love with aircooled Porsches. This culminated last summer when after years of crawing I finally purchased 95 993 C2 in polar silver with sole intent of turning her into proper weekend racer. Nearly year of planning went by and now I am finally pulling the trigger on the whole operation, which I will try to document in a separate built thread.
Now to my question - I am getting the suspension parts blasted, powder coated and reasembled with GT2 uprights, GT2 tie rods, Tarett drop links and ERP rear upper and lower control arms.
The bit I am now torn on is what bushings should I use. The main purpose of the car is 50% track and 50% spirited driving on mountain roads of various tarmac quality, altough none of them will be dusty B-roads. It will never see city centre nor I am concerned about ride quality or noise.
I talked with several people about using monoballs all around, some of them say it works outside of circuit, some of them it does not. I want the car to perform best at the circuit, while not trailing behind and jumping around hopelessly on a sunday cruise with friends. The only car with full monoballs that I experienced on public roads was EVO 8 and it was not that bad, altough the car is entirely different animal. The longevity of such suspension setup is also a question I think.
Do You guys have any experience with the Elephant racing rubber bushing in sport hardness or is there any other brand You could recommend?
Thanks a lot, Michal
long time reader, first time poster - I am European petrolhead who, despite his relatively young age of 27, felt hopelessly in love with aircooled Porsches. This culminated last summer when after years of crawing I finally purchased 95 993 C2 in polar silver with sole intent of turning her into proper weekend racer. Nearly year of planning went by and now I am finally pulling the trigger on the whole operation, which I will try to document in a separate built thread.
Now to my question - I am getting the suspension parts blasted, powder coated and reasembled with GT2 uprights, GT2 tie rods, Tarett drop links and ERP rear upper and lower control arms.
The bit I am now torn on is what bushings should I use. The main purpose of the car is 50% track and 50% spirited driving on mountain roads of various tarmac quality, altough none of them will be dusty B-roads. It will never see city centre nor I am concerned about ride quality or noise.
I talked with several people about using monoballs all around, some of them say it works outside of circuit, some of them it does not. I want the car to perform best at the circuit, while not trailing behind and jumping around hopelessly on a sunday cruise with friends. The only car with full monoballs that I experienced on public roads was EVO 8 and it was not that bad, altough the car is entirely different animal. The longevity of such suspension setup is also a question I think.
Do You guys have any experience with the Elephant racing rubber bushing in sport hardness or is there any other brand You could recommend?
Thanks a lot, Michal
street mono-***** aren't bad riding on reasonably smooth roads, the concern is more longevity. I use rubber covers on the rears and Elephant Racing sealed mono-***** in front, add a spritz of WD-40 when I remember.
Be careful w/ the Tarret drop links in back, a friend uses them and had to shorten them to be useable. BTW they also have mono-ball bushes
05-04-2015, 01:24 PM
#3
Advanced
Thread Starter
If you have ERP arms in back the decision has been bade, they have mono-ball bushes, w/ mono-ball s in back it only makes sense to use mono-***** in front too
street mono-***** aren't bad riding on reasonably smooth roads, the concern is more longevity. I use rubber covers on the rears and Elephant Racing sealed mono-***** in front, add a spritz of WD-40 when I remember.
Be careful w/ the Tarret drop links in back, a friend uses them and had to shorten them to be useable. BTW they also have mono-ball bushes
street mono-***** aren't bad riding on reasonably smooth roads, the concern is more longevity. I use rubber covers on the rears and Elephant Racing sealed mono-***** in front, add a spritz of WD-40 when I remember.
Be careful w/ the Tarret drop links in back, a friend uses them and had to shorten them to be useable. BTW they also have mono-ball bushes
What about the rear subframe bushings? Elephant offers only rubber ones, I can get monoballs made for this too. Is it worth the hassle?
Last edited by Michel M.; 05-04-2015 at 03:08 PM.
05-04-2015, 02:48 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
My 2 cents...
Mono ***** are an wear/inspection item. As long as you keep up the inspections, I don't see any reason not to run them. Since you are doing 50% track days, that will force you to continually inspect them, so you should be good to go...
My concern is where you imply that you are "going to start doing track days".. This would mean you may not start or may not do them as regularly as you think.... In that scenario, you would be better off with rubber.
Mono ***** are an wear/inspection item. As long as you keep up the inspections, I don't see any reason not to run them. Since you are doing 50% track days, that will force you to continually inspect them, so you should be good to go...
My concern is where you imply that you are "going to start doing track days".. This would mean you may not start or may not do them as regularly as you think.... In that scenario, you would be better off with rubber.
05-04-2015, 05:33 PM
#5
Banned
What constitutes the sweet spot is highly subjective. You can have a great street car or a great track car, after that it is one big compromise at best. Decide which use of the car is most important to you, and compromise in that direction.
05-04-2015, 06:04 PM
#6
Drifting
At Bill V's recommendation I went with Elephant Racing sport rubber bushings front and rear in a manner that emulated the factory RS setup. They required some significant labor to have them installed in my existing control arms, but otherwise I have no complains.
The only monoballs in my suspension setup are the front strut hats (camber plates). The steering is nice and precise, but watch out if you hit a pothole!
Perhaps start with the sport rubber setup and them move to a full monoball setup? I'd also recommend driving for a while with the car AS-IS so that you develop a good seat of your pants (trousers) calibration of what the baseline feel is for a 993 suspension setup.
What struts/shocks/springs would you be running with on this setup? That will have a significant impact on your ride feel/performance. Also what sway bars? Every bit matters.
Others with more experience can speak up here, but I see monoballs as a final level of suspension enhancement once you've tried all the rest: struts, sway bars and drop links, bushings, uprights, lowered height, pinned steering tie rods, etc!
Good luck!
The only monoballs in my suspension setup are the front strut hats (camber plates). The steering is nice and precise, but watch out if you hit a pothole!
Perhaps start with the sport rubber setup and them move to a full monoball setup? I'd also recommend driving for a while with the car AS-IS so that you develop a good seat of your pants (trousers) calibration of what the baseline feel is for a 993 suspension setup.
What struts/shocks/springs would you be running with on this setup? That will have a significant impact on your ride feel/performance. Also what sway bars? Every bit matters.
Others with more experience can speak up here, but I see monoballs as a final level of suspension enhancement once you've tried all the rest: struts, sway bars and drop links, bushings, uprights, lowered height, pinned steering tie rods, etc!
Good luck!
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05-04-2015, 06:47 PM
#8
There is no such thing as 'THE' sweet spot, the best you can do is make the compromises that suit, your purpose and usage
I have had numerous different suspensions under my 993, used w/ 8 & 10 x18 225/40 & 265/35 tires
1) when I bought it it had ROW M030 w/ stock Monroes and stock bushes. This was fine for a daily driver
I wanted something better for some track use
2) So changed to JIC w/ Racers Group adjustable sways
more track use
3) so I changed to RS wheel carriers and tie rods
more track use, 8.5 & 10 x18 wheels added
4) So I changed the front bushes to Elephant Sport and the rear A-arm & KT arm to RS w/ new stock camber and Tarrett tie rod links. Also changed the rear side mounts to ERP solids. also went to RS sways. also copped some Cup/RSR tie rods
more track use
5) the JICS were getting blown out regularly and so I went to custom valved Bilstein/HRE Cup shocks w/ Rennline rear and Mode front camber plate shock top mounts.
more track use
6)couldn't keep rear alignment w/ the stock eccentrics so went to RSR rear A-arms and Elephant rear arms and front mono-*****
#5 was the best all around(excellent track and street), RS wheel carriers, Cup tie rods, Elephant sport front bushes, RS rear A-arms & KT arms, new stock camber arms, Tarrett toe arms, solid side mounts, 8.5 & 10 x18, Bilstein Cup shocks Rennline and mode shock mounts
#6 is the best for mostly track use, change to all mono-***** on the all the arms
I have had numerous different suspensions under my 993, used w/ 8 & 10 x18 225/40 & 265/35 tires
1) when I bought it it had ROW M030 w/ stock Monroes and stock bushes. This was fine for a daily driver
I wanted something better for some track use
2) So changed to JIC w/ Racers Group adjustable sways
more track use
3) so I changed to RS wheel carriers and tie rods
more track use, 8.5 & 10 x18 wheels added
4) So I changed the front bushes to Elephant Sport and the rear A-arm & KT arm to RS w/ new stock camber and Tarrett tie rod links. Also changed the rear side mounts to ERP solids. also went to RS sways. also copped some Cup/RSR tie rods
more track use
5) the JICS were getting blown out regularly and so I went to custom valved Bilstein/HRE Cup shocks w/ Rennline rear and Mode front camber plate shock top mounts.
more track use
6)couldn't keep rear alignment w/ the stock eccentrics so went to RSR rear A-arms and Elephant rear arms and front mono-*****
#5 was the best all around(excellent track and street), RS wheel carriers, Cup tie rods, Elephant sport front bushes, RS rear A-arms & KT arms, new stock camber arms, Tarrett toe arms, solid side mounts, 8.5 & 10 x18, Bilstein Cup shocks Rennline and mode shock mounts
#6 is the best for mostly track use, change to all mono-***** on the all the arms
05-05-2015, 05:58 PM
#9
Advanced
Thread Starter
At Bill V's recommendation I went with Elephant Racing sport rubber bushings front and rear in a manner that emulated the factory RS setup. They required some significant labor to have them installed in my existing control arms, but otherwise I have no complains.
The only monoballs in my suspension setup are the front strut hats (camber plates). The steering is nice and precise, but watch out if you hit a pothole!
Perhaps start with the sport rubber setup and them move to a full monoball setup? I'd also recommend driving for a while with the car AS-IS so that you develop a good seat of your pants (trousers) calibration of what the baseline feel is for a 993 suspension setup.
What struts/shocks/springs would you be running with on this setup? That will have a significant impact on your ride feel/performance. Also what sway bars? Every bit matters.
Others with more experience can speak up here, but I see monoballs as a final level of suspension enhancement once you've tried all the rest: struts, sway bars and drop links, bushings, uprights, lowered height, pinned steering tie rods, etc!
Good luck!
The only monoballs in my suspension setup are the front strut hats (camber plates). The steering is nice and precise, but watch out if you hit a pothole!
Perhaps start with the sport rubber setup and them move to a full monoball setup? I'd also recommend driving for a while with the car AS-IS so that you develop a good seat of your pants (trousers) calibration of what the baseline feel is for a 993 suspension setup.
What struts/shocks/springs would you be running with on this setup? That will have a significant impact on your ride feel/performance. Also what sway bars? Every bit matters.
Others with more experience can speak up here, but I see monoballs as a final level of suspension enhancement once you've tried all the rest: struts, sway bars and drop links, bushings, uprights, lowered height, pinned steering tie rods, etc!
Good luck!
The new suspension is going to be Quantum 2-way, most likely 400 lb/in front and 550 lb/in rear spring rates and RS sways.
I can perfectly understand what You mean by monoballs being the final stage of suspension upgrade. However since the car is getting stripped interior, full cage, built motor etc. I think I am on the slippery slope already and basically want to make sure I am not making a colossal mistake. I just worded the OP poorly it seems...
Last edited by Michel M.; 05-05-2015 at 06:24 PM.
05-05-2015, 06:05 PM
#10
Advanced
Thread Starter
There is no such thing as 'THE' sweet spot, the best you can do is make the compromises that suit, your purpose and usage
I have had numerous different suspensions under my 993, used w/ 8 & 10 x18 225/40 & 265/35 tires
1) when I bought it it had ROW M030 w/ stock Monroes and stock bushes. This was fine for a daily driver
I wanted something better for some track use
2) So changed to JIC w/ Racers Group adjustable sways
more track use
3) so I changed to RS wheel carriers and tie rods
more track use, 8.5 & 10 x18 wheels added
4) So I changed the front bushes to Elephant Sport and the rear A-arm & KT arm to RS w/ new stock camber and Tarrett tie rod links. Also changed the rear side mounts to ERP solids. also went to RS sways. also copped some Cup/RSR tie rods
more track use
5) the JICS were getting blown out regularly and so I went to custom valved Bilstein/HRE Cup shocks w/ Rennline rear and Mode front camber plate shock top mounts.
more track use
6)couldn't keep rear alignment w/ the stock eccentrics so went to RSR rear A-arms and Elephant rear arms and front mono-*****
#5 was the best all around(excellent track and street), RS wheel carriers, Cup tie rods, Elephant sport front bushes, RS rear A-arms & KT arms, new stock camber arms, Tarrett toe arms, solid side mounts, 8.5 & 10 x18, Bilstein Cup shocks Rennline and mode shock mounts
#6 is the best for mostly track use, change to all mono-***** on the all the arms
I have had numerous different suspensions under my 993, used w/ 8 & 10 x18 225/40 & 265/35 tires
1) when I bought it it had ROW M030 w/ stock Monroes and stock bushes. This was fine for a daily driver
I wanted something better for some track use
2) So changed to JIC w/ Racers Group adjustable sways
more track use
3) so I changed to RS wheel carriers and tie rods
more track use, 8.5 & 10 x18 wheels added
4) So I changed the front bushes to Elephant Sport and the rear A-arm & KT arm to RS w/ new stock camber and Tarrett tie rod links. Also changed the rear side mounts to ERP solids. also went to RS sways. also copped some Cup/RSR tie rods
more track use
5) the JICS were getting blown out regularly and so I went to custom valved Bilstein/HRE Cup shocks w/ Rennline rear and Mode front camber plate shock top mounts.
more track use
6)couldn't keep rear alignment w/ the stock eccentrics so went to RSR rear A-arms and Elephant rear arms and front mono-*****
#5 was the best all around(excellent track and street), RS wheel carriers, Cup tie rods, Elephant sport front bushes, RS rear A-arms & KT arms, new stock camber arms, Tarrett toe arms, solid side mounts, 8.5 & 10 x18, Bilstein Cup shocks Rennline and mode shock mounts
#6 is the best for mostly track use, change to all mono-***** on the all the arms
That is a lot of good info, thanks!
Just one question - the RSR rear A-arm You have is an original Porsche Motorsport item? I live 4 hours away from Weissach, however the motorsport items are kind of unobtanium here it seems...
05-05-2015, 09:14 PM
#11
Drifting
I actually drove the car around quite a bit when I got it, and altough the car was otherwise well maintained the suspension certainly showed some wear, so I am afraid my experience was a bit off from what a well sorted stock suspension might offer. But it was fun nonetheless...
The new suspension is going to be Quantum 2-way, most likely 400 lb/in front and 550 lb/in rear spring rates and RS sways.
I can perfectly understand what You mean by monoballs being the final stage of suspension upgrade. However since the car is getting stripped interior, full cage, built motor etc. I think I am on the slippery slope already and basically want to make sure I am not making a colossal mistake. I just worded the OP poorly it seems...
The new suspension is going to be Quantum 2-way, most likely 400 lb/in front and 550 lb/in rear spring rates and RS sways.
I can perfectly understand what You mean by monoballs being the final stage of suspension upgrade. However since the car is getting stripped interior, full cage, built motor etc. I think I am on the slippery slope already and basically want to make sure I am not making a colossal mistake. I just worded the OP poorly it seems...
Ay some point you have to make the decision regarding whether you're building a track car that is barely street legal (or not street legal at all) OR a street-oriented sport tuned car? It seems to me like you're leaning more towards the track car route. Enjoy!
05-06-2015, 06:06 PM
#12
Advanced
Thread Starter
Based on that info, you are certainly much further down the slippery slope towards a mostly track oriented 993. I'd go with the monoball and sport rubber setup. Just be warned that your driving experience off the track will be a bit rough at times! What sort of engine and transmission mounts will you be using? RS? Wevo Black? Solid motorsports mounts?
Ay some point you have to make the decision regarding whether you're building a track car that is barely street legal (or not street legal at all) OR a street-oriented sport tuned car? It seems to me like you're leaning more towards the track car route. Enjoy!
Ay some point you have to make the decision regarding whether you're building a track car that is barely street legal (or not street legal at all) OR a street-oriented sport tuned car? It seems to me like you're leaning more towards the track car route. Enjoy!
I really want to keep it on plates, fortunately it is possible to get them on almost anything here.
I am definitely leaning towards the track car more, I just do not want to entirely lose the ability to street the car, since these "sunday cruises" are what started my interest in driving and motorsport in the first place... I know, I know - "get a second car", "use your daily", "set priorities", but ... well... thats me I guess.
On a more or less unreleated note, this man is my personal hero
