Transformed!!!! Tip to Man
03-21-2015, 12:09 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Hello, I will continue to add pix and descriptions as I get time. Here are a good look at the flex plate and bell housing. As I moved thru this project, it became clear to me that the Tip was an adaptation to the primarily Manual design.
The flex plate, with associated spacers, mimic the factory dual mass flywheel in position and function. You can see the Crank Position sensor mounting spot on the bell housing. Now that I am finished, I am certain that I could have reused the Speed Sensor as it fit in the new bracket. I am glad I installed a new one, but for future reference, the OEM one should work. As a point of note, the CPS can be changed with the motor in place, so an error here is not that big a deal.
The flex plate show the same missing reference teeth.
Another interesting thing, that helps keep the cost of a Tip trans very cheap ( I have seen good used units for 800 dollars) is that they can't easily be used in a kit car. This is based on the fact that it can't easily be run "upside down" as is the case for many kit vehicles running a mid engine set up. If you ran a 993 trans of any variant in a mid engine vehicle with its normal orientation you would have 1 forward gear and 3 (auto) or 5(manual) reverse gears. This is overcome on a manual by turning its orientation 180 degrees ( basically belly up) and adjusting the fluid level or adding a pump.
As I mentioned previously the cost of a manual transmission even used is getting very expensive. That may be the most cost prohibitive part of the project.
More info and pix of the rest is coming as I find time to post......
Rich
The flex plate, with associated spacers, mimic the factory dual mass flywheel in position and function. You can see the Crank Position sensor mounting spot on the bell housing. Now that I am finished, I am certain that I could have reused the Speed Sensor as it fit in the new bracket. I am glad I installed a new one, but for future reference, the OEM one should work. As a point of note, the CPS can be changed with the motor in place, so an error here is not that big a deal.
The flex plate show the same missing reference teeth.
Another interesting thing, that helps keep the cost of a Tip trans very cheap ( I have seen good used units for 800 dollars) is that they can't easily be used in a kit car. This is based on the fact that it can't easily be run "upside down" as is the case for many kit vehicles running a mid engine set up. If you ran a 993 trans of any variant in a mid engine vehicle with its normal orientation you would have 1 forward gear and 3 (auto) or 5(manual) reverse gears. This is overcome on a manual by turning its orientation 180 degrees ( basically belly up) and adjusting the fluid level or adding a pump.
As I mentioned previously the cost of a manual transmission even used is getting very expensive. That may be the most cost prohibitive part of the project.
More info and pix of the rest is coming as I find time to post......
Rich
03-27-2015, 11:13 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Hello again, I will continue to post until the thread has a full conversion done.
I was hoping to have a reference for any future people who may want to try this. As I see it, the reasons to convert are becoming more reasonable as the cars become harder to buy. I would recommend this to anyone longing for a manual trans, who otherwise loves their car. This mod is completely reversible, so, after you source the parts, you can switch between the 2 trannys on command ( with 60 plus hours of labor that is!!!)
Anyway, here is the new ( to me) trans mounted on the motor. Please note, I found it easier to install the starter in the car than fight with the right side axle. I am not sure if it is easier as you get more familiar, but I simply installed the starter after the axle.
The second pix is the manual trans being introduced to my chassis for the first time. If you look at the left side of the pix, you can see the auto trans harness hanging still. Note that the transmission cross member and the trans mount bushing are the same for manual and automatic, I was simply able to swap from one to the other.
I was hoping to have a reference for any future people who may want to try this. As I see it, the reasons to convert are becoming more reasonable as the cars become harder to buy. I would recommend this to anyone longing for a manual trans, who otherwise loves their car. This mod is completely reversible, so, after you source the parts, you can switch between the 2 trannys on command ( with 60 plus hours of labor that is!!!)
Anyway, here is the new ( to me) trans mounted on the motor. Please note, I found it easier to install the starter in the car than fight with the right side axle. I am not sure if it is easier as you get more familiar, but I simply installed the starter after the axle.
The second pix is the manual trans being introduced to my chassis for the first time. If you look at the left side of the pix, you can see the auto trans harness hanging still. Note that the transmission cross member and the trans mount bushing are the same for manual and automatic, I was simply able to swap from one to the other.
03-27-2015, 11:24 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
In these pix, on the left, near the alarm horn you can see the tip harness. I eventually wire tied it to the horn bracket after taping it's ends to keep them clean. If I ever decide to convert it back, it is there in place. If I ever decide to put the car on a weight loss program, then I would need to go in and remove all the wiring ( among other things).
The second and third pictures show the routing of the clutch master to slave hydraulic line. The front line is a hard metal line with rubber molded on in key areas. There is then a flexible rubber line that connect the last foot or so to the slave so the trans can "move" within what the mount allows.
For people with a manual trans, this may not be that interesting, but for someone considering this conversion , the location of key components is critical. I had to search for a bit until a rennlister helped with some terrific photos.
So the story moves on....
The second and third pictures show the routing of the clutch master to slave hydraulic line. The front line is a hard metal line with rubber molded on in key areas. There is then a flexible rubber line that connect the last foot or so to the slave so the trans can "move" within what the mount allows.
For people with a manual trans, this may not be that interesting, but for someone considering this conversion , the location of key components is critical. I had to search for a bit until a rennlister helped with some terrific photos.
So the story moves on....
03-27-2015, 11:38 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Here are some pix of the new 3 pedal box. Unfortunately I did not photo the Auto pedal box coming out. I will say that they mount identically. The brake rod goes right on, and the trans tunnel has a rubber plug for the metal clutch line to pass thru ( it is behind the sound deadening pad to the right of where the accelerator pedal would be. The metal line should be put thru that hole while the assembly is loose.
I wound up changing out the pedal rubbers so don't be alarmed that there is no clutch rubber.
The blue cable is someone prior to me routing an aftermarket CD player ( which I removed) I will eventually get it out of there ( again when I do a weight loss). The grey cable that is visible running left to right ( easily visible near steering column shaft) is for the ignition key release. This is not normally in a manual car. It is normally mounted on the automatic shifter and will not allow the key to be removed unless the car is in "Park". I deactivated this feature from the ignition switch.
I wound up changing out the pedal rubbers so don't be alarmed that there is no clutch rubber.
The blue cable is someone prior to me routing an aftermarket CD player ( which I removed) I will eventually get it out of there ( again when I do a weight loss). The grey cable that is visible running left to right ( easily visible near steering column shaft) is for the ignition key release. This is not normally in a manual car. It is normally mounted on the automatic shifter and will not allow the key to be removed unless the car is in "Park". I deactivated this feature from the ignition switch.
03-27-2015, 11:42 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I forgot to mention in the first picture, directly to the left of the clutch MC, you can see a loose wire plug coming off the large harness. This plug used to connect to the "kick down" switch on the Automatic pedal assembly accelerator pedal. I simply pushed it into the loom and pulled the slack back thru so it is out of harms way. Again, I left the wiring in place in case I ever decide to convert it back to auto.
03-27-2015, 11:55 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Here is the new floor board ( yes this is different between the 2) the manual floor board has an extra cut for the clutch pedal, and the pedal stop built in.
Now, I got lucky as I found the absolute last pedal box carpet in existence from Porsche in DDQ code!!!! The reason it was still available is that Porsche switched the part number but never superseded it, so anyone looking with the old number would be told NLA!!! One of my employees spent some time on google and found an alternate number and lo and behold, he got me one. As you can see, it is very bright compared to the dingy original, but it is clear that they are the same.
I could have easily made the automatic one work by slightly modifying the left side, but I prefer to keep all the original parts intact if possible.
The last photo shows the key release cable, which is no longer going across there.
Now, I got lucky as I found the absolute last pedal box carpet in existence from Porsche in DDQ code!!!! The reason it was still available is that Porsche switched the part number but never superseded it, so anyone looking with the old number would be told NLA!!! One of my employees spent some time on google and found an alternate number and lo and behold, he got me one. As you can see, it is very bright compared to the dingy original, but it is clear that they are the same.
I could have easily made the automatic one work by slightly modifying the left side, but I prefer to keep all the original parts intact if possible.
The last photo shows the key release cable, which is no longer going across there.
03-28-2015, 12:56 AM
#24
Three Wheelin'
Threads like these are why I find Rennlist so valuable. Great work and thank you so much for sharing your experience and knowledge with the group. Sadly I think there are times this swap makes $$ sense in light of what the difference in values are between Tips and manual cars, especially the C2S!
03-28-2015, 11:38 AM
#25
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I forgot to mention, the brake light switch is a simple bolt in affair. The manual and auto use the same switch and the wiring and plug are in the proper place for either application. This becomes a good time to adjust the switch to your liking. You can set it that any pressure whatsoever on the brake pedal sets the light off, or you can set it that you would need to brake with conviction to set it off. This is an easy screw adjustment. I have mine that if I touch the pedal even a little bit, it lights up.
The clutch pedal has a microswitch, which is located below the clutch MC, towards the rearmost ( rear of car) portion of the pedal assembly. It is black so it may not be easily visible.
I connected 2 wire lenths, and routed them to under the passenger seat. They are not yet hooked up, but it does work on the cruise control ( terminal 14 of CC module). This will be one of the last items I address and I will surely post what I discover. To start, I will say that the microswitch is a normally closed switch, meaning that current will pass thru it when the pedal is in the resting position. The setting that the switch was at when I received the pedal box assembly ( one of the very few items I sourced used) was that with approx. 1 inch of pedal movement the switch was activated and the circuit is broken.
Like I said, more on this as I figure out that entire circuit. One of our members was kind enough to send me all the wiring diagrams so I can work thru these type issues.. The wiring diagrams are more difficult than I am used to working with because to follow some circuits, you need to refer to several different schematic pages. Some modern car companies actually have additional schematics that break out each individual circuit. This practice gives a more narrow overview, but it is certainly quicker to isolate a problem.
The schematics that Porsche publish are excellent in that they show excellent overview, and this is sometimes useful, but that same detail can be a double edge sword.
The clutch pedal has a microswitch, which is located below the clutch MC, towards the rearmost ( rear of car) portion of the pedal assembly. It is black so it may not be easily visible.
I connected 2 wire lenths, and routed them to under the passenger seat. They are not yet hooked up, but it does work on the cruise control ( terminal 14 of CC module). This will be one of the last items I address and I will surely post what I discover. To start, I will say that the microswitch is a normally closed switch, meaning that current will pass thru it when the pedal is in the resting position. The setting that the switch was at when I received the pedal box assembly ( one of the very few items I sourced used) was that with approx. 1 inch of pedal movement the switch was activated and the circuit is broken.
Like I said, more on this as I figure out that entire circuit. One of our members was kind enough to send me all the wiring diagrams so I can work thru these type issues.. The wiring diagrams are more difficult than I am used to working with because to follow some circuits, you need to refer to several different schematic pages. Some modern car companies actually have additional schematics that break out each individual circuit. This practice gives a more narrow overview, but it is certainly quicker to isolate a problem.
The schematics that Porsche publish are excellent in that they show excellent overview, and this is sometimes useful, but that same detail can be a double edge sword.
03-28-2015, 08:47 PM
#26
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
The shifter assembly caused me some anxiety as I was not sure exactly how things went prior to starting this. I have read the PET over and over, and looked at pix on the net to understand the relationship.
As it turns out, the shifter "box" is the same for tip and manual with one key difference, the tip has the bottom plate removed from the shift box. This leaves the vertical bushing holders in place for either trans type. I am sure on the assembly line, Porsche received boxes in both configurations, but as a replacement part, they are all for manual, with it needing the bottom plate removed for a top. This bottom plate also holds the lower shift rod rubber "accordion". This keeps road dirt out.
Anyway, after I removed console, you can see the tip shift mechanism. It too is complex. It has several switches and a shift interlock. This entire upper plate is removed as an assembly with all switches intact. Then the shifter assembly casting can be removed.
In these pix you can see the original routing of the key lock cable and the trans shift cable. All the removal processes are straight forward. The most difficult item was removing the original Tip shift ****. That was simply due to lack of knowledge. After unscrewing the release button on top, the handle simply lifts straight up. It is indexed or keyed so do NOT twist, just steadily apply upward force being careful to not hit yourself in the chin. This is best to do in a few sittings.
The black wire in the last picture is the emergency brake trigger wire. It simply adds ground when the handle is activated. The new shifter boot frame has a clip that holds this wire out of harms way.
As it turns out, the shifter "box" is the same for tip and manual with one key difference, the tip has the bottom plate removed from the shift box. This leaves the vertical bushing holders in place for either trans type. I am sure on the assembly line, Porsche received boxes in both configurations, but as a replacement part, they are all for manual, with it needing the bottom plate removed for a top. This bottom plate also holds the lower shift rod rubber "accordion". This keeps road dirt out.
Anyway, after I removed console, you can see the tip shift mechanism. It too is complex. It has several switches and a shift interlock. This entire upper plate is removed as an assembly with all switches intact. Then the shifter assembly casting can be removed.
In these pix you can see the original routing of the key lock cable and the trans shift cable. All the removal processes are straight forward. The most difficult item was removing the original Tip shift ****. That was simply due to lack of knowledge. After unscrewing the release button on top, the handle simply lifts straight up. It is indexed or keyed so do NOT twist, just steadily apply upward force being careful to not hit yourself in the chin. This is best to do in a few sittings.
The black wire in the last picture is the emergency brake trigger wire. It simply adds ground when the handle is activated. The new shifter boot frame has a clip that holds this wire out of harms way.
03-28-2015, 08:58 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I removed the factory Tip pieces and put them away for safe keeping. With the shifter removed you can now see thru the floor. There are a lot of pieces that make up the factory set up. The good news is I now have a brand new shift assembly and it feels nice and tight.
Being I was buying all new components, I read up, and decided to buy a SSK and a Goldenrod. I have read that the SSK does not really alter the throws all that much ( I read approx. 20%) but I figured, why not get the most sporty feel I can in a factory shift. I am sure the Goldenrod is an improvement over the rubber mounted factory set up. I was afraid that if I got the standard rod, the shift feel would be "numb".
I was overall pleased with the shift feel. I am not sure if I would buy a SSK if I already had factory stock components, but the Goldenrod seems to be a must have.
Again, the first pix with the shifter removed shows the interlock cable. It has since been moved
Being I was buying all new components, I read up, and decided to buy a SSK and a Goldenrod. I have read that the SSK does not really alter the throws all that much ( I read approx. 20%) but I figured, why not get the most sporty feel I can in a factory shift. I am sure the Goldenrod is an improvement over the rubber mounted factory set up. I was afraid that if I got the standard rod, the shift feel would be "numb".
I was overall pleased with the shift feel. I am not sure if I would buy a SSK if I already had factory stock components, but the Goldenrod seems to be a must have.
Again, the first pix with the shifter removed shows the interlock cable. It has since been moved
03-28-2015, 09:24 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I toyed with the idea of leaving the lower boot out, then I thought about making the boot mounting plate, then I decided to just buy the correct part.
Unfortunately for the piece that I need, I had to buy the entire shifter box. I used a weld cutter to separate the pieces. If anyone ever uses a weld cutter the trick is to use a punch to make a locating dot for the pin to catch, and to start the cutter spinning before allowing it to contact the metal. Yes, there are other ways, but when you see how I installed it, this will make sense. I always try to make things reversible, and I could actually put the shifter box back together easily by welding the holes back up. Easy peasy.
Maybe I will find someone building a kit car that wants to use Porsche components for the shifter, and the remaining pieces would be valueable to him.
My employee who picked this up for me said that there are 4 of these in the Los Angeles warehouse. He questioned what type of issue would make someone need one of these ( except for madmen like me)?
His thought was if this was damaged in an accident, the car would be in awful shape ( it is literally in the center of the car from all points).
I told him, perhaps a rear end collision in which the shift rod was forced forward and distorted the box. Yes there would be large damage in that example, but not so bad as to not fix.
Anyway here is the box pix
Unfortunately for the piece that I need, I had to buy the entire shifter box. I used a weld cutter to separate the pieces. If anyone ever uses a weld cutter the trick is to use a punch to make a locating dot for the pin to catch, and to start the cutter spinning before allowing it to contact the metal. Yes, there are other ways, but when you see how I installed it, this will make sense. I always try to make things reversible, and I could actually put the shifter box back together easily by welding the holes back up. Easy peasy.
Maybe I will find someone building a kit car that wants to use Porsche components for the shifter, and the remaining pieces would be valueable to him.
My employee who picked this up for me said that there are 4 of these in the Los Angeles warehouse. He questioned what type of issue would make someone need one of these ( except for madmen like me)?
His thought was if this was damaged in an accident, the car would be in awful shape ( it is literally in the center of the car from all points).
I told him, perhaps a rear end collision in which the shift rod was forced forward and distorted the box. Yes there would be large damage in that example, but not so bad as to not fix.
Anyway here is the box pix
03-29-2015, 10:30 AM
#30
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Hello Mike, I want to personally and publicly thank you for being a gentleman and selling me a terrific trans for a reasonable price. I may even convert the crate that it was originally shipped in into a flower box for my wife!!!!
The trans appears to be the 10k mile unit like you said. I had it open and the components had virtually no wear on them. I did a thorough inspection being I needed to take it apart to make it into a G50 ( Posi rear bonus!!)
Yes sir, you will get a test drive real soon. I thought it might be a good idea to ride them both back to back to feel the difference between the G50-20 and the G50-21 ( I think you have a 21 which is why I got the 20).
As I finish up, I remember you telling me, "Rich, 2nd gear is the main issue".
You couldn't be more correct. The space between 1st and 2nd is way too big!!!
If I ever remove the trans ( and I may to install my Supercharger Kit), I may do a regear. Actually, if 1st gear is retained, there is room to shorten every other gear. I will drive it for a bit, make my notes and start paying attention to the shorter gearsets available.
Again Mike, it was a pleasure meeting you and I can not thank you enough. This project would not have started without you!!!!!
Kindest regards
Rich
The trans appears to be the 10k mile unit like you said. I had it open and the components had virtually no wear on them. I did a thorough inspection being I needed to take it apart to make it into a G50 ( Posi rear bonus!!)
Yes sir, you will get a test drive real soon. I thought it might be a good idea to ride them both back to back to feel the difference between the G50-20 and the G50-21 ( I think you have a 21 which is why I got the 20).
As I finish up, I remember you telling me, "Rich, 2nd gear is the main issue".
You couldn't be more correct. The space between 1st and 2nd is way too big!!!
If I ever remove the trans ( and I may to install my Supercharger Kit), I may do a regear. Actually, if 1st gear is retained, there is room to shorten every other gear. I will drive it for a bit, make my notes and start paying attention to the shorter gearsets available.
Again Mike, it was a pleasure meeting you and I can not thank you enough. This project would not have started without you!!!!!
Kindest regards
Rich