TJ993

I have read many threads here on this SAI issues with our V Ram cars and was wondering a few things.

Here is the scenario: 1997 Carrera C2 – 90,000 Miles on Top End Rebuild
Car is Running Lean.
02 Sensors are Good and the MAF Sensor working as it should.
Car does not burn much Oil – (M1 V-Twin 20 W 50) as said car is running Lean.

Extensive Maintenance Performed mostly by me on the car. Wires Plugs D Caps Rotors vBelts Air / gas Filter & more!
Operator error factor here is quite high LOL. Canadian East Coast guy here -Mechanically Challenged ! – twisted sense of humour! But yet able to do a 30K Service n More eh! – Go Figure??

SAI - History existed on the car when I bought her – I feel it simply was not run hard enough IMHO
Car passed Emissions when I got her & Recently Again even with a CEL – It is a 97 - only has to Pass Tail Pipe here!!

Inspected Tree - T Pipe – aka – Vacuum Line Fitting - Appears Solid / Sturdy.
Question: Will or could this T Pipe Compress or shrink under load??
Checked hoses at front, well front and appears to be No Leaks here.

Replaced S.A.I. CHECK VALVE # 993-113 250 – 03 AND Installed SEAL RING PART # 993 111 195 (22MM)

Replaced VACUUM UNIT Part# 993-110-462-01 – Located at Left Rear Driver side .

BTW - With regard to the SAI system, at this point I find it extremely annoying - btw- I think I have only heard Stage 2 kick in Once Recently? – Got so excited I Hit the Rev Limiter!

Now this was after finding a Chipped Rotor key and a frosty white S Plug – all Replaced. Then I insatalled Vacuum Unit and then I heard Stage 2 Open – Now I do not hear it. Since then I have been looking for the Solution.

Now I read “Check Engine Light and the SAI: Fixed Mine with a part: 993110 462 02” Post # 724540
600RR was part correct – My Innova Scanner only brought up one Code – like his - Generic – P0410.

Decided ok I have done what I can so time to bring her to a Mechanic – found one highly recommended here on RL – Thanks Guys!!

Took the car in to a Mechanic. He is using Porsche PIWIS Tester. He found 2 Codes – P080 and P208 – SAI Both Banks.

As per 600RR, my Mechanic did Smoke Test and Vacuum Leak Test & Recommended Replacement of VACUUM UNIT Part# 993-110-462-01 – Located at Left Rear Driver side – Since I have already replaced the Check Valve – his opinion – “the usual suspects – first parts to fail.”

Same as 600RR. Hmmm. No More Pinging!! Car is more driveable in Traffic !

Mechanic now strongly believes & is advising me to Replace Vacuum / Resonance Flap Housing. (Part # 993-110-061-03)

Now after reading Many Posts here, this Post: “Oil Leak – base of intake Manifold…?” #591861 –
I Am wondering the entire Resonance Flap or assembly needs Replacement?

Alternatively, is the Solution a matter of Replacing the (2) Shaft Seal Rings #999 201 371 00 and the AIR Intake Gasket? Part # 993 110 263.01 – not being cheap just practical.

This part Costs $400 here in Canuckville ! That does not include installation!! Then what, go back again if it does not solve the problem?

I KNOW THERE IS Oil on top of the Manifold – or believe there is cuz I smell it.
Getting tired of peace mealing this, paying per hour for service OUCH! & scratching my head thinking I should just replace every rubber bit – after all the car is 17 years old - rubber does dry out.

Practical question - Why pay a mechanic a $1000 to slowly Agonizing - Annoyingly Try this and ok Lets try that – what feels like Nichle and Diming me to death – And who is a pita to get to - when dealing with 17 year old rubber bits = why not just Replace all of the SAI rubber Parts? Got to be less than $1000.? Right?

But ideally this should be dealt with when the engine is out - But my motor does not need a Rebuild - nor a LWFW – so what is the answer?

Now I want to solve the problem. Afterall, I am told the longer the codes sit in the car it will do damage to cats right? Also retards engine timing I am told – is that right?

Maybe the wrench is right?
Thoughts Suggestions are Encouraged. I welcome suggestions.

Would like to hear from People here who have dealt with this and are dealing with this V Ram vacuum.

Let me know what worked for you.
Thanks for reading!
TJ Toronto, Ontario Canada – Canuckville Eh!

kjr914

Simply put:
1. no VarioRam, POSSIBLY the flapper. Remove it, test it (see below), then decide.
2. If there is oil on this part, install 2 new seals after removal for step1. Do both seals. I did the big seal and now have to go back and do the other one...

Looks like you've already seen this post on fixing the flapper valve seals:
https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...-manifold.html
Here's another on testing another valve (not the exact same valve, but the 1st post i could find on this topic):
https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...orking-ok.html

TJ993

Thanks Keith !

I appreciate your reply!

I have an Update - Just took another look at the Vacuum Line Fitting and it does have a Bend in it. Will try to attach a Pic - P # 993-110-573-00
Instead of installing the Stent - just ordeered New for $10.76

Howw do I add a Pic? mu URL _ ??

I read your first recomendation - Yes Thanks

Now I will read the Second Recomendation

Do u have the Workshop Schematic for these parts?

PET Drawings are not as detailed.
Thanks Kindly!
Tom

TJ993

Quote:
"Simply put:
1. no VarioRam, POSSIBLY the flapper. Remove it, test it (see below), then decide.
2. If there is oil on this part, install 2 new seals after removal for step1. Do both seals. I did the big seal and now have to go back and do the other one... "

The Seal Ring #999-201-371-00 x 2 is On "Back Order" here in Toronto.
Told it has to be Ordered from Germany. Hmmm

Or 993.110.263.01 Varioram intake gasket - it is Available.

Now is this what Paul 902 is referring to in First Post? or K722070 ?

Paul902

Tom, just shot you a PM, indicating the check the flapper movement by hand, then progress to diagnose whether the solenoid is getting vacuum change as RPM increases or not so you can either replace the solenoid, or chase the vacuum problem. Wait to get your new TT installed to check the vacuum.

Edit: I see Keith also pointed to a method to test the solenoid. Good stuff.

The Seal Ring #999-201-371-00 is the "lip seal" referred to in the thread Keith pointed to. It is just a generic industry part and the thread lists several places to get it. Check at Motion Canada nearest you.

TJ993

UPDATED POST - post REVIVAL
AS STATED EARLER: "Then what, go back again if it does not solve the problem?"

OK HERE I AM AGAIN
THE CHECK ENGINE LIGHT HAS RETURNED After Rebuilding the Resonance Flappe

Back to the beginning - searching for Solution to Eliminate CEL


To recap, Replaced S.A.I. CHECK VALVE # 993-113 250 – 03 AND Installed SEAL RING PART # 993 111 195 (22MM)

Replaced VACUUM UNIT Part# 993-110-462-01 – Located at Left Rear Driver side .

Inspected Tree - T Pipe – aka – Vacuum Line Fitting - Appears Solid / Sturdy in Summer Heat.
Question: Will or could this T Pipe Compress uinder Load? or Shrink in the Cold?

YES - Fall Toronto temps of 50 to 60 degrees F will Compress TT Pipe.- Replaced TT Pipe

Smoke Test - RESULTS: from Mechanic : One Half Bar Vacuum Leek - MINOR
aFTER Rebuilding the Resonance Flappe the Car is Much more Driveable.
No issues bumper to bumper, she pulls away in Second Gear easily from a crawl.

She Pulls Hard through the Gear Box - The Tach has No issues pulling through the Rev Range
This is the Best she has Run since I acquired the Car 8/11.

Now I am using the cheapee Innova scanner 3100a.
Result is Error code P0410 - the CEL has returned.
Anybody within a few hundred miles happen to have the Bosch Unit?

Now its back to the drawing board. Going to start from scratch.
Open to Suggestions.

Last Fall the wrench, the Mechanic advised the following:

1) Car is Running Lean.
2) The 02 Sensors are Good and
3) The MAF Sensor is working as it should.
4) The Motor does not burn much Oil – Running M1 V-Twin 20 W 50.

Last major highway run car burned one liter at 2100 Highway Miles of travel.
City Highway driving means More Oil is Consumed but consumption is well above Factory Levels of concern.

The car has had Top End Rebuild 93,000 Miles ago by Original Dealer who sold the car.

I am trying to service all aspects of the SAI and known issues before I consider the last Resort - Cleaning the Ports.
The Mechanics opinion or belief is that because the motor is running Lean there is no way the Ports are blocked.
I am going to go with that Theory, for now. Thoughts?

As far as lean Running - would this indicate a known problem?
Is there Something I should be concerned with or about?

We have High Humidity here in our warmer months.
My cars Temp Gauge driving city highway goes from 1/3rd to 1/2 - unless there is traffic congestion or an accident.
I have seen the temp gauge jump to 3/4 for a few minutes - then I get out of there!!
Otherwise all indications are I have the car running quite well.

I am looking for the Remainder of the Usual Suspects - aka Known Issues or Problems. Suggestions?

What happens now is the DME Retards ignition timing, the Exhaust rings out the "Ping" sound and soon after the CEL re-appears.
The Ping is like Bad Gasoline - Ping Ping

As of this morning I have managed to Complete the Drive Cycle.
I find that the O Monitor - assume Oxygen Sensor / Monitor is the last to Set. Wonder why?
Might there be something happening there? An indicator of an issue?
No History of O2 sensor being changed. car has 134,500 MILES.

Any thoughts or and Recomendations are welcome.
Thanks TJ

nine9six

TJ, here's a thought...

At 135k mi, I would consider replacing the O2 sensors, if there in no indication that they have ever been changed. They usually last 75k-100k miles.

One caveat to this thought is that a good OBDII tester should be able to detect a malfunctioning O2 sensor; so throwing more money and parts at a problem, is not really a solution.

I am not suggesting this will solve your problem, but faulty/intermittently operating O2 sensors could be the reason your DME is being sent signals to lean out the mixture.

There are generic Bosch O2 sensors that are direct replacement units which cost much less than the specific Bosch units for the 993...

If you decide to replace all the O2 sensors; you will need 2 before cat sensors, and 2 after cat sensors.

Just a thought...

TJ993

THANKS For taking the time to read my Post.
I know it is Lengthy...but lots of history.

I have pulled the Pre-Cat sensors twice - and used Sensor Clean and Re-Installed. Post Cat - can not remember.

Yes I need access to a Bosch reader!

I just ordered the Cut Off Valve.
Based on my Maintence Records I belive it too is original and never changed. Atleast It is one of the system parts. I will take a shot in the dark and well ya know, atleast the SAI system parts will be Re-freshed.
One more part that there will be no doubt upon operational.

I decided I will pull the Check Valve to ensure it is in working Order after all the maintenance I have completed to date.

I will remove the 02 Sensors for a look.
Can u Suggest where to Order the 02 Sensors ? Sunset or ?

Thanks Tom

SwayBar

I would not worry about this for now and take care of the SAI errors first.

However, how was he able to ascertain it's running lean? Is it lean at idle, or while out cruising, or both? He would have to have a wide-band O2 in the tail pipe to see that. Unless of course the OBD on the car reports the fuel/air to a reader which he is then able to see.

Your thrown OBD codes point to some of the ports being clogged. The good news is, it's not a complicated job, just a lot of grunt work.

Your O2 sensors are old but may still be good. I say that because my OBD threw a code stating that the driver-side pre-cat O2 sensor heater was bad (..or something like that); I replaced that O2 sensor, and no more codes. So if yours is not throwing codes, they should be good.

TJ993

Howdy

The Mechanic Scanned the car with the PIWIS tester, and advised the MAF and 02 sensors were good and car is running lean.
I *** u me that the PIWIS tester provided this info?

Mechanic also advised the car showed CODES 80 / 208 USING “PIWIS” TESTER

He completed Smoke Test - found one Vacuum Unit had a leek - a Hole in it - so i replaced that unit near the blower, at the back drivers side.

Brought the car back in - and MECHANIC Cleared Code AND did a 2nd Smoke Test - Result is now a One Half Bar vacuum Leek.
Recomended Replacing Resonance Flappe.

After 5 Hours of labour - I decided to rebuilt the Flappe myself as per Paul 902 DIY and here we are.

I clearted the error code using an Innova 3100a - showed one code P0410.
I completed the Drive Cycle yesterday. I was able to Reset all Monitors.

Last monitor to set was "o" FYI - not sure if that has any meaning or is an Indication of an issue - simply that it was last monitor to set.

Drove the car today, mostly city with 3500 - 4200 1st gear shift into 2nd then up to 36 - 4000 and into third and cruised 2400 - 2800 in third.

Drove 20 Miles in City so 35 - 45 mph.
Got onto the Highway, drove 3-5 Miles on the Highway "CEL" Re-appeared while on Highway at 65 mph.

Thinking that New Check Valve I installed 12,000 miles ago may be seized??
On the other hand, if this was or is the cause would the PIWIS Tester pick up the Check Valve is seized?

I used the EasyOBD 11 - ScanTool and I do have Readings. Scanned the car immediately -error indicates P0410.

Maybe something in the Readings from this Scan tool can give an Indication?
I do not know what the proper readings should be - perhaps theres a post here to point me in the right direction?

Should I post the readings here? Maybe someone can tell me what we r looking at?
Yes I realize need the correct scanner But I also know the SAI System does fail to the usual suspects.
So anyone have some suggested tests or parts that have a history of failure?
What is not already replaced?

BesideTheBox

Yes, post the readings here. This is a technical forum, after all. A brief explanation of OBDII values can be found HERE.

Kika

Be wary that some readers, including mine do not seem to pick up BOTH 1411 AND 0410 codes. Mine just shows the 1411, so I assumed that 4-6 were getting clogged, vice both banks, which is indicative of other things, such as bad check valve and/or vaccum leaks.

While having one's own code reader is very handy, I have learned in the last week, to have the codes read by one of the more comprehensive readers.

I was going to get my top end done, but that is now put on the back burner while we chase vacuum leaks.

TJ993

I will check the History later tonite - at work now.

I remember about 18 months back I used what I think was a better Innova scanner, a pro grade unit - I think and it showed 2 codes.

The current Innova 3100a is lower grade and it shows one code P0410.

The Mechanic last fall, about 2-3,000 miles back did show Two Codes.
Yes, Thanks for the Reminder about the One error code.

"

Seems I will have to do some reading again!!

Just thinking back, the Mechanic is looking at current readings. He did nbot see the car or test it when I had some real bad plugs and a Frosty D Cap / Rotor.

Perhaps the damage was done earlier b4 My Tune Up?

Perhaps now the car is running well enough to have a Lean Condition but it was already too late the Ports are plugged?

TJ993

tHANKS FOR YOUR REPLY.

I Will post a few - can u suggest what to Post here?
Thanks Tom

nine9six

I'm fairly certain you cannot clean a potentially malfunctioning O2 sensor into functionality ; but I am with speedracer in that your 0410 code needs to be addressed first.