Car rides way too rough after Bilstein HD/M030's. May have been a bad choice...
11-12-2008, 02:36 AM
#1
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Thread Starter
Car rides way too rough after Bilstein HD/M030's. May have been a bad choice...
Hello fellow 993 owners... I've debated posting my feelings about my suspension upgrade from 3 weeks ago because I've been pretty unhappy with the results and feel bad for the great bunch of guys that helped me, that it may hurt their feelings.
Bottom line is that my old shocks and springs were shot at 82K miles, so I thought I'd do what is highly recommended here on the board, to do the Bilstein HD's and the M030 springs. It sure did lower the ride height, but I think it's way too low because it's hard to pull into my garage without scraping. I found that if I pull in very, very slowly, it won't scrape. I am scraping sometimes on pulling into certain parking situations with uneven surfaces so obviously I have to bring the car back to the repair shop and have them raise the front a bit. Here's what they did after my Rennlister friends installed the suspension:
CCI11122008_00001.jpg?t=1226469281
CCI11122008_00002.jpg?t=1226470432
After driving the car home, I realized that with every rut in the road, the car would tramline, making for a poor handling machine. Additionally, whenever I'd drive over a bump in the road, uneven road surface, or on a road that's not smooth, the car's ride is incredibly harsh. It's so harsh that ... I don't really want to drive it like this anymore. I had no idea that this would be the case. Other's reviews of this suspension upgrade didn't mention that the ride would turn into a bone jarring affair. I was actually thinking of selling it 2 days ago after driving it all day in Washington DC because it's just not comfortable. Also, it seems to waver to the left and right sometimes for no reason. I still haven't done the bushings but I did buy new ones for a future install session. The mechanic said they're fine and didn't need to replace them, but I have to wonder... Basically, it's much harder to drive.
I wish in hindsight that I had simply gotten the cheap Monroe shocks that the car comes with new and called it a day, SUV ride height and all. Heresy you might say, but the car isn't fun to drive this way. I took out my notes from what the mechanic who did the alignment (using a very expensive, state of the art machine) said and it was "The tires were cupping in front before the alignment which would yield a rougher ride and the alignment may not feel perfect". I think what I need to do is have another Rennlister drive my car and see what they think about the ride. I miss my softer ride and the ability to easily go over speed bumps and pull into my driveway quickly without scraping the underneath. The mechanic said he could fashion a Front Protection Bar for alot less than I'd have to pay for one from the existing sources. He was going to do it when I left it with him for 2 days but he never got around to it.
The mechanic also said I need a rear spoiler airwall as it's broken. I never even noticed it before as it's not something you'd never see being a driver. He showed me where it's broken but because it's winter it wasn't crucial to fix it right away (when the spoiler goes up, instead of the air going into the cooling fan it goes out the back so the cooling doesn't happen - his explanation).
The trans fluid was changed but it was really dirty with fuzz in it so he suggested changing it yet again in the spring.
The ignition wires are shot (on the underneath of the car?) and he said it's a pretty big job and that he'd check into pricing. Ughhhh...
He spent a while trying to fix from the underneath my horribly rattling shifter but when I drove off to go back home (50 minutes away) it was still freaking rattling, just a hair more quietly. Big dissapointment there. I told him when I dropped it off that I don't even want the car back until he fixed the rattle as it drove me crazy.
Brake pads and rotors need to be done in the spring he said. Also, when the emissions test comes up soon again for Maryland emmisions, I'll need the SAI cleaned in order for it to pass. That's about 6.5 hours of labor to pull the exhaust off, run the cleaner thru it 2 times, do the test with the smoke machine, etc, etc... Ouch. The CEL has been on for 2+ years now so I guess I'm due soon for an emissions notice.
If I need a top end rebuild that's about $10k he said. New rings, the works. I know nothing about this stuff other that I won't get a top end rebuild until the car doesn't run anymore! He didn't suggest it needs one, he was just giving a price because I asked about it.
So, the bottom line is, the car is WAY too harsh and I hope he can dial this back a large amount, closer to where it was before I started, though I know that's probably not possible. The car looks cooler being so much lower - A movie comes to mind - "Dude, Where's My Car?". Yes, it's that low, like it's ready to do the limbo.
Any suggestions on how to reverse this harsh ride to a non-harsh ride while keeping the suspension as it is now? Do you think that raising the front end a bit would really change the handling and harshness that much? The car feels scary when driving on a road as it wavers left and right a small degree with variations in the road. It didn't do this before this badly.
IMG_4428.jpg?t=1226470769
Steve R
Bottom line is that my old shocks and springs were shot at 82K miles, so I thought I'd do what is highly recommended here on the board, to do the Bilstein HD's and the M030 springs. It sure did lower the ride height, but I think it's way too low because it's hard to pull into my garage without scraping. I found that if I pull in very, very slowly, it won't scrape. I am scraping sometimes on pulling into certain parking situations with uneven surfaces so obviously I have to bring the car back to the repair shop and have them raise the front a bit. Here's what they did after my Rennlister friends installed the suspension:
CCI11122008_00001.jpg?t=1226469281
CCI11122008_00002.jpg?t=1226470432
After driving the car home, I realized that with every rut in the road, the car would tramline, making for a poor handling machine. Additionally, whenever I'd drive over a bump in the road, uneven road surface, or on a road that's not smooth, the car's ride is incredibly harsh. It's so harsh that ... I don't really want to drive it like this anymore. I had no idea that this would be the case. Other's reviews of this suspension upgrade didn't mention that the ride would turn into a bone jarring affair. I was actually thinking of selling it 2 days ago after driving it all day in Washington DC because it's just not comfortable. Also, it seems to waver to the left and right sometimes for no reason. I still haven't done the bushings but I did buy new ones for a future install session. The mechanic said they're fine and didn't need to replace them, but I have to wonder... Basically, it's much harder to drive.
I wish in hindsight that I had simply gotten the cheap Monroe shocks that the car comes with new and called it a day, SUV ride height and all. Heresy you might say, but the car isn't fun to drive this way. I took out my notes from what the mechanic who did the alignment (using a very expensive, state of the art machine) said and it was "The tires were cupping in front before the alignment which would yield a rougher ride and the alignment may not feel perfect". I think what I need to do is have another Rennlister drive my car and see what they think about the ride. I miss my softer ride and the ability to easily go over speed bumps and pull into my driveway quickly without scraping the underneath. The mechanic said he could fashion a Front Protection Bar for alot less than I'd have to pay for one from the existing sources. He was going to do it when I left it with him for 2 days but he never got around to it.
The mechanic also said I need a rear spoiler airwall as it's broken. I never even noticed it before as it's not something you'd never see being a driver. He showed me where it's broken but because it's winter it wasn't crucial to fix it right away (when the spoiler goes up, instead of the air going into the cooling fan it goes out the back so the cooling doesn't happen - his explanation).
The trans fluid was changed but it was really dirty with fuzz in it so he suggested changing it yet again in the spring.
The ignition wires are shot (on the underneath of the car?) and he said it's a pretty big job and that he'd check into pricing. Ughhhh...
He spent a while trying to fix from the underneath my horribly rattling shifter but when I drove off to go back home (50 minutes away) it was still freaking rattling, just a hair more quietly. Big dissapointment there. I told him when I dropped it off that I don't even want the car back until he fixed the rattle as it drove me crazy.
Brake pads and rotors need to be done in the spring he said. Also, when the emissions test comes up soon again for Maryland emmisions, I'll need the SAI cleaned in order for it to pass. That's about 6.5 hours of labor to pull the exhaust off, run the cleaner thru it 2 times, do the test with the smoke machine, etc, etc... Ouch. The CEL has been on for 2+ years now so I guess I'm due soon for an emissions notice.
If I need a top end rebuild that's about $10k he said. New rings, the works. I know nothing about this stuff other that I won't get a top end rebuild until the car doesn't run anymore! He didn't suggest it needs one, he was just giving a price because I asked about it.
So, the bottom line is, the car is WAY too harsh and I hope he can dial this back a large amount, closer to where it was before I started, though I know that's probably not possible. The car looks cooler being so much lower - A movie comes to mind - "Dude, Where's My Car?". Yes, it's that low, like it's ready to do the limbo.
Any suggestions on how to reverse this harsh ride to a non-harsh ride while keeping the suspension as it is now? Do you think that raising the front end a bit would really change the handling and harshness that much? The car feels scary when driving on a road as it wavers left and right a small degree with variations in the road. It didn't do this before this badly.
IMG_4428.jpg?t=1226470769
Steve R
11-12-2008, 03:00 AM
#2
Rennlist Member
Unfortunately, raising or lowering the car will not change the ride harshness.... Although it might help with bump steer...
Spending a little more, and getting pss10s would have given you the ability to easily change the ride quality.
I leave mines on full soft for regular driving, and the ride is softer than stock!
BTW: your front camber seems pretty aggressive for street driving! Mine is only around -1.
Good Luck!
Spending a little more, and getting pss10s would have given you the ability to easily change the ride quality.
I leave mines on full soft for regular driving, and the ride is softer than stock!
BTW: your front camber seems pretty aggressive for street driving! Mine is only around -1.
Good Luck!
11-12-2008, 03:36 AM
#4
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Steve,
As another member has just done, I would suggest the cheapest and easies way to improve you ride quality is to change to 17" wheels and tires. (I think you said your current tires were cupped).
I have the same set up and found that moving from 17 to 18's was a step down in ride..even if I like the looks of the 18's. I may move back to the 17's after this set of tires is wasted.
my 02
Tim
As another member has just done, I would suggest the cheapest and easies way to improve you ride quality is to change to 17" wheels and tires. (I think you said your current tires were cupped).
I have the same set up and found that moving from 17 to 18's was a step down in ride..even if I like the looks of the 18's. I may move back to the 17's after this set of tires is wasted.
my 02
Tim
11-12-2008, 05:14 AM
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Ignition wires are usually gone for cars this age. I had mine done a few months ago, there are 14 cables (2x6 + 2), and they cost around 25 euros per cable...The work itself is not that much.
11-12-2008, 06:45 AM
#6
Seared
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Steve,
I'm really sorry to read this considering how long you've debated this change. When we (Cactus, nsully & I) installed your new suspension, we set it up exactly as I did my own. That is to say, it was done per Jeff's excellent ride-height guidelines.
I have indicated to you that our front ride height differs by about 1/2", and that you should have this adjusted. In addition, your front tires were worn & cupped on the inside, and I think installing the new front bushings would make a very noticeable change.
My offer to share my alignment settings with Taylor still stands - my 993 drives great and feels planted. It's been more than two years since he aligned mine.
I have a feeling you are ready to dump the car over this. If so, why not take care of the items we've discussed and then reassess.
Andreas
I'm really sorry to read this considering how long you've debated this change. When we (Cactus, nsully & I) installed your new suspension, we set it up exactly as I did my own. That is to say, it was done per Jeff's excellent ride-height guidelines.
I have indicated to you that our front ride height differs by about 1/2", and that you should have this adjusted. In addition, your front tires were worn & cupped on the inside, and I think installing the new front bushings would make a very noticeable change.
My offer to share my alignment settings with Taylor still stands - my 993 drives great and feels planted. It's been more than two years since he aligned mine.
I have a feeling you are ready to dump the car over this. If so, why not take care of the items we've discussed and then reassess.
Andreas
11-12-2008, 07:55 AM
#7
Rennlist Member
What are your current ride heights? These are critical to achieving a controlled, compliant ride with HD/MO30's IMO, and Andreas suggests as much.
Agressive front camber and RS heights will reward concentrated, aggressive driving styles on smooth surfaces ..... and I suspect neither is that your style nor surface: on my C4S, I initially tried low heights ( w. H&R springs) - like 128mm or so on front .... and the car was a proper bit@h on our heaved roads at speed - and tramlined and clashed over moderate speed irregularities.
I then installed ROW turbo/MO30 w. ROW bars ( so somewhat stiffer than your car) ... but set heights at ~138mm/124mm f/r: the car is a delight to drive at any rational ( and sometimes irrational
) speed, even on surfaces that would make your sphincter pucker.
So, review the heights and camber: I think you will find a superior ride awaiting you, but if no solace there, go to MO33 springs.
Agressive front camber and RS heights will reward concentrated, aggressive driving styles on smooth surfaces ..... and I suspect neither is that your style nor surface: on my C4S, I initially tried low heights ( w. H&R springs) - like 128mm or so on front .... and the car was a proper bit@h on our heaved roads at speed - and tramlined and clashed over moderate speed irregularities.
I then installed ROW turbo/MO30 w. ROW bars ( so somewhat stiffer than your car) ... but set heights at ~138mm/124mm f/r: the car is a delight to drive at any rational ( and sometimes irrational
) speed, even on surfaces that would make your sphincter pucker. So, review the heights and camber: I think you will find a superior ride awaiting you, but if no solace there, go to MO33 springs.
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11-12-2008, 08:47 AM
#8
Wallflower
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Do you have access to drive another w/ the same setup to see if it drives as you described? I have similar on my cab and it doesn't seem overly harsh. Sounds to me like you probably have something out of kilter there...
11-12-2008, 09:07 AM
#10
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I know... I'm asking this question myself. Thanks everyone for your suggestions so far. It's time for me to make the call to the repair shop and discuss all of what you wrote with them. I haven't even contacted them since I got my car back as I've been busy with work, depressed about the harsh ride, and thinking that I'm pretty much stuck with it the way it is without spending alot more money which is running low right now.
Regards,
Steve
Regards,
Steve
11-12-2008, 09:10 AM
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Steve, I think this is a case of you not really knowing what you want. The ride differences from worn stock shocks to Bilstein HD have been well documented, and I am sure you did your homework before going that route. The day of the install when I met you it was clear that you are not into performance driving. That in itself is not a problem but I wonder what you communicated to the tech when it came to your wishes for that alignment. The reason I point this out is that you showed up with a lowered car and new HD shocks. He might have concluded that you wanted to follow that with an aggressive alignment to match. LOOK at the top of your alignment sheet. I see RS, and I have a hunch that is what you have. This drama may be the result of not knowing what you want in your car.
I would suggest that you clearly convey the characteristics you want in your car and re-align to the specs that are appropriate. Taylor is an excellent tech.
Good luck!
I would suggest that you clearly convey the characteristics you want in your car and re-align to the specs that are appropriate. Taylor is an excellent tech.
Good luck!
11-12-2008, 09:12 AM
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I know... I'm asking this question myself. Thanks everyone for your suggestions so far. It's time for me to make the call to the repair shop and discuss all of what you wrote with them. I haven't even contacted them since I got my car back as I've been busy with work, depressed about the harsh ride, and thinking that I'm pretty much stuck with it the way it is without spending alot more money which is running low right now.
Regards,
Steve
Regards,
Steve
11-12-2008, 09:30 AM
#13
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Camber is too aggresive for street driving. Get the ROW M033 springs and the Monroes - this will lower the car some and keep the nice DD ride - sorry but after many months of deliberation this is the way I went. Sorry.
or in DC?
