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Old 12-16-2001, 11:52 PM   #1
Denny Lindsay
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Post 4 wheel Drift and Cornering

Can anyone explain how to correctly setup for a four wheel drift exiting from a corner?

I want to realize the limits of this car without purchasing new wheels or ??? from a tail out 180 into a curb.

I'm pretty sure one can pull this off and be at near WOT before the car locks up with regularity and predictability.

I would be practicing in the Co. parking lot when unoccupied and clear of obstacles, not the public streets.

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Old 12-17-2001, 01:19 AM   #2
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Hey Denny,

Here are some words of wisdom, take em or leave em.
Drifting and cornering are serious driving schools that in my opinion, don't belong in a parking lot.
Having just come back from Skip Barber racing school the one most important thing I learned about driving is how little I know. I have been driving tracks for years even and that did not subsitute a real schooling.
So, forget about drifting and cornering. You need to learn how to be a weight distribution engineer. That is what all good drivers really are. If you think you can teach yourself how to drift and corner in a parking lot you going to wind up with a really nice paper weight you used to call your car.
There are basics fundamentals of physics and driving you need to aquire before you start cornering and hoping you don't wind up in a tree. Things like loading weight onto the front wheels, controlling oversteer and understeer, throttle inputs and steering inputs and so much more.
I now this is not the answer your looking for but belive me, it's the right one.
Hope this helps...
and call Skip Barber, or Panoz, or whatever your flavor might be, you'll love it and you'll come out of it more than you could ever learn in a parking lot and on the net.
good luck...
b-line
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Old 12-17-2001, 02:29 AM   #3
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Ohhhh boy,

Denny, May I echo all of B-line's words of wisdom with even more vigor. What you suggest (four-wheel drift) is one of those magical experiences that, when one nails it just right, whoa it's a rush that's a mix of both exhilaration and accomplishment. BUT, it's also an "on the edge" manuever that:

- one works up to through much practice
- attempts only in the appropriate,
controlled setting
- does with professional guidance
- can end up disastrous even when done right

Even IF you manage not to wrap that beauty around a solid object, any "success" you think you gained is miniscule, and perhaps even illusory (because it just "feels" fast), when compared to REAL instruction under the best conditions. Most everyone thinks they're good until they learn for themselves what good really is; and you don't learn that (at least not safely) anywhere but on a track with good instruction and the opportunity to work through the lessons. If you think this sounds harsh, it isn't...just answering your post in the most honest way I know. Take care

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Old 12-17-2001, 01:05 PM   #4
George Helser
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Denny Lindsay,

I agree with the writers above about training and safety.
However, I do not understand the difficulty in getting a 4 wheel drift in a 993. I bought a 1997 993 C2 coupe in SEP 01. It is my third Porsche (others were a 914 & 911 SC) and I find it to require no extraordinary skill to attain a 4 wheel drift. The 993 is so well balanced.
Frequently, when I am taking a turn where there is no one around and plenty of space I
am trying to find the cornering limit of the 993 (or whatever car I am driving). This is
what cars, especially sports cars, are for! As I increase power over the cornering limit,
my 993 goes into a very stable and controllable 4 wheel drift.
Maybe my car is special (has M030 sport chassis option & slightly lower springs) but
when test driving a plain 993 Targa with the local dealer they took me to an empty
expanse of highway and I was in a 4 wheel drift the first time I tried to find the cornering limit. The 993 handling is a dream come true!

Have fun and be safe.

Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona
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Old 12-17-2001, 10:14 PM   #5
Denny Lindsay
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Thanks for all the wisdom.

I was mainly asking because I've pulled it off a few times quite successfully and was wondering what I did when it didn't lockup exactly the way it had previously.

Denny
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Old 12-17-2001, 10:45 PM   #6
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Denny and George

When you say 4 wheel drift, are you talking about the slip angle when a car is at the limit of it's adhesion, rotating the car with trail-braking, or hanging the tail out? -- a great shot of which was in every 993 sales video they ever seemed to release... I think it was taken at Weissach.

that last one I have a hard time inducing in my coupe (still standard US suspension/18" tech wheels), which I thought my be a faster way around the circle in an autocross. I can do all three in the race car no problem.

I too am all for safety and practicing at the proper venue, but I'd think a theoretical discussion is still appropriate.

thanks

Mike
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Old 12-18-2001, 01:33 AM   #7
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Mike,

In other cars I have owned, prior to the 993, it was not easy for me to achieve a 4 wheel drift.

What I mean when I say 4 wheel drift is the car is not understeering or oversteering.
Both ends have started sliding and at the same rate (sideways).

I can’t wait to get the 993 on the track after a few autocross events to learn the spin & recovery characteristics.

Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona
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Old 12-18-2001, 01:39 AM   #8
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Eh. Well, 4-wheel-drifting in a 911 is about the easiest 4-wheel-drift you'll ever do. The 911 just has a tendency to whip the *** around a bit when you're coming out of a corner and that's what I love about it. Although I haven't driven a 993 at its limit, i do own a 911SC and just yesterday was exploring the limits along with the attitude and balance of the car on some very familiar canyon roads (you can look for video under my post in the 911 forum titled "had some fun yesterday"). Anyway, what i experienced was that if you just give the car a little bit too much input aggressively and sharply at the beginning of the corner it tends to shake the back end loose just enough for you to power-drift it into and out of the corner. With the 993 I'd imagine this would be a bit easier as you have a bit more power and the gears are a little bit closer so you're in the power band more. Either way, the best way to go is to start off with little sliders coming off of the corner and as your experience grows, gradually try to coax the rear-end out at the beginning and keep your right foot planted on the gas to slide it (if it starts to spin give it a quick burst of opposite lock) instead of wussing out and braking. Other than that, make sure you're somewhere with plenty of room. The place where I was doing most of my work there was plenty of run-off into dirt that terminated into a lightly inclined hill with soft gravel so i wouldn't kill myself or damage the car...luckily i did not go off. And as a last word of advice, i wholeheartedly agree with picking up some type of high-performance driving classes if you plan on doing this seriously and often. If you want to take a look at exactly how this is done with a 911 I'd suggest picking up a copy of the film FASZINATION.

later,

amir
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Old 12-18-2001, 09:32 PM   #9
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"I'd suggest picking up a copy of the film FASZINATION."

I believe you can download the video here. This is a very long download, but worth it.
http://www.sjrixon.clara.net/

Sorry guys, I do not know how to provide a link.
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Old 12-18-2001, 09:34 PM   #10
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"I'd suggest picking up a copy of the film FASZINATION."

I believe you can download the video here. This is a very long download, but worth it.
http://www.sjrixon.clara.net/

Sorry guys, I do not know how to provide a link.
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Old 12-18-2001, 09:40 PM   #11
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I agree with George that in a four wheel drift, the car is at the slip angle/adhesion-limit of the tires, and all are sliding equaly.

If you're hanging the rear out, I believe that's a power slide.

Maybe it's just all semantics.

Here's an English site that offers an explanation on some of them.
www.drivingtechniques.co.uk/

Look under techniques-RWD

I agree that schools are the best place to learn. Otherwise, try them at your own risk, but no one else's.

M in C
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Old 12-19-2001, 12:48 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mike in Chi:
<STRONG>
If you're hanging the rear out, I believe that's a power slide.
</STRONG>

Hanging the rear out is technically called oversteer. One form of oversteer is a power slide, induced by, you guessed it, power (as when coming out of a low speed turn). Another form is lift-throttle oversteer, or trailing throttle oversteer (TTO). Lifting in the middle of the turn induces this. There is also steady state oversteer, and probably other forms as well.
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Old 12-19-2001, 06:07 PM   #13
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not to mention my favorite..
(TBO)
Trail braking oversteer...
but don't try this one at home
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Old 05-08-2007, 12:46 AM   #14
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4 wheel drifting is not really a parking lot trick because you need a lot of momentum to break traction on all four tires at once.

However once can have lots of fun doing power-oversteer stunts in a lot (late at night, when they are closed of course). Most sports cars can easily be made to lose rear traction (oversteer) by lifting in a turn while near the rear traction limit, especially if you are high in the rev/torque band such that lifting will instantly remove a lot of weight from the rear and the motor will drag down the speed instantly. With a powerful car, once you lift and lose some of the traction, apply power quickly to convert it into a power oversteer. Learn that and you can look like a pro all day long. But wider your rear tires + shorter your wheelbase, the harder this is to get right, and the more easily it will snap into and out of oversteer. The nice thing is that this sort of fun is fairly benign and you can get lots of laughs without even leaving second gear.
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Old 05-08-2007, 12:46 AM
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