Excellent comparative article by C&D: 911 GTS v. Jag F-type R coupe v. Merc GT S
05-22-2015, 12:53 AM
#16
Rennlist Member
Larry,
Same for me as the others who commented that I don't see my PDK dropping into 7th too soon and in fact I sometimes wonder why it hasn't when I'm on the interstate.
Is it possible a new car is programmed to drop into 7th early during the "break-in" period to keep the revs down?
DaveGee
Same for me as the others who commented that I don't see my PDK dropping into 7th too soon and in fact I sometimes wonder why it hasn't when I'm on the interstate.
Is it possible a new car is programmed to drop into 7th early during the "break-in" period to keep the revs down?
DaveGee
05-22-2015, 01:18 AM
#17
Rennlist Member
Larry, I'm at 3.5 weeks, 950 miles and haven't felt the need to drive a mile in Auto yet. Keep waiting for the new to wear off and just say, Ah, Screw it, I'll use Auto. But so far, no desire whatsoever. And all driving so far has been in Sport Plus, shocks off (unless I'm in the mountains hooning, in which case Shocks are on. Or if I'm on interstate, in which case I'll switch to Sport so I can get 7th gear.) Anyway, I'm warming to this PDK-thingy after thinking I had made a mistake the first 10 days or so. Maybe I just better never put it in Auto so I don't become disillusioned!
FWIW, and I get that they're not the same, but I could and still can never drive our GTI in anything other than manual mode. It's just become the way I drive and like to drive the car. I never think of leaving it in auto. Conversely, my wife (who, I'm happy to report is actually quite good with a manual) has never driven it in anything other than auto mode. That's the beauty of the PDK.
And, yeah, the Merc is more ugly than the Jag is beautiful. And the jag is awfully beautiful.
05-22-2015, 08:51 AM
#18
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I got my hands on an Edition 1 model last week. I'll be keeping my 991. The car is a fantastic alternative and more dialed then an F-type, but it is not a vehicle of precision like the 911. It seems to be more concerned about its grand "entrance" than the total driving experience. That engine has more personality than the 911 will ever have though, imo.
Definitely will be testing further iterations though. The ingredients are all there and future models could definitely sway my opinion. Excited about the 991 facelift too.
They're clearly in a global sales race with BMW/Audi. And it's working, their sales are up.
In what world is an 8/10 not up to snuff? The first line of the article says "Devastatingly handsome in its own right." The 911 and F-type are beautiful, that's all. A ***** shaped vehicle is never going to be beauty queen. And contrary to your theory that they're going to hate it later, if it ages like the SLS they'll actually like it more as numerous iterations are released. You're always so dramatic.
If they were truly trying to copy they wouldn't have used the SLS platform. It's clear they're not abandoning their MB roots (clearly for the worse in some areas) but it's not without merit. They'll never be Porsche so they might as well be Mercedes.
Definitely will be testing further iterations though. The ingredients are all there and future models could definitely sway my opinion. Excited about the 991 facelift too.
But reading between the lines, look at the exterior scoring that C&D did. They gave the AMG GT the last place styling score out of the 3 ("only" an 8/10). So it seems in their most honest opinion, it's not quite up to snuff. Imagine what they'd say in 5+ years when that "wow/new" typical to modern M-B gimmicky design popping smoke wears off, thus turns against the car to quickly date it (which is how it goes, and another issue with modern M-B idioms).
Someone on another forum said it looks like a "hotdog on wheels". Made me LMAO. Especially in that color. The proportions and ridiculously long hood are comically phallic. And you can just see how that excess is not only pointless, but regressive to function, and would make the car feel more unwieldy than a 911. M-B try to imitate in the most lowbrow ways, but they still don't "get it". Porsche is about function and timelessness first, focus, precision, not gimmicks. Copy all they want, but they clearly don't understand the secret sauce.
05-22-2015, 09:08 AM
#19
Drifting
That is interesting... I drive most of the time in Sport (or Sport Plus when driving aggressively) and do not notice the same behaviour when in Auto. I had actually asked a couple weeks back if the car goes into 7th at all when in Sport mode... similar to the observation by Archimedes. It has only happened a couple times when cruising steady on the highway.
Wonder if it is a function of being brand new or what... assume there is some sort of learning mode to these things. Either way it is a non-issue as I'm in paddle/manual shift every time as soon as the engine is reasonably warm.
Wonder if it is a function of being brand new or what... assume there is some sort of learning mode to these things. Either way it is a non-issue as I'm in paddle/manual shift every time as soon as the engine is reasonably warm.
05-22-2015, 09:52 AM
#20
I got my hands on an Edition 1 model last week. I'll be keeping my 991. The car is a fantastic alternative and more dialed then an F-type, but it is not a vehicle of precision like the 911. It seems to be more concerned about its grand "entrance" than the total driving experience. That engine has more personality than the 911 will ever have though, imo.
Definitely will be testing further iterations though. The ingredients are all there and future models could definitely sway my opinion. Excited about the 991 facelift too.
They're clearly in a global sales race with BMW/Audi. And it's working, their sales are up.
In what world is an 8/10 not up to snuff? The first line of the article says "Devastatingly handsome in its own right." The 911 and F-type are beautiful, that's all. A ***** shaped vehicle is never going to be beauty queen. And contrary to your theory that they're going to hate it later, if it ages like the SLS they'll actually like it more as numerous iterations are released. You're always so dramatic.
If they were truly trying to copy they wouldn't have used the SLS platform. It's clear they're not abandoning their MB roots (clearly for the worse in some areas) but it's not without merit. They'll never be Porsche so they might as well be Mercedes.
Definitely will be testing further iterations though. The ingredients are all there and future models could definitely sway my opinion. Excited about the 991 facelift too.
They're clearly in a global sales race with BMW/Audi. And it's working, their sales are up.
In what world is an 8/10 not up to snuff? The first line of the article says "Devastatingly handsome in its own right." The 911 and F-type are beautiful, that's all. A ***** shaped vehicle is never going to be beauty queen. And contrary to your theory that they're going to hate it later, if it ages like the SLS they'll actually like it more as numerous iterations are released. You're always so dramatic.
If they were truly trying to copy they wouldn't have used the SLS platform. It's clear they're not abandoning their MB roots (clearly for the worse in some areas) but it's not without merit. They'll never be Porsche so they might as well be Mercedes.
M-B winning a sales race in the way they are, is antithesis to what made them famous to begin with. And it's affecting brand regard and quality. The MB forum threads of guys horrified over how cheap CLA/GLA's are as loaner cars, is amusing. Less amusing is how M-B's quality rankings have been once again dragged through the mud after finally getting back up, now sitting amongst the bottom of the entire car industry. Quantity over quality has become their approach (i.e "an M-B for every garage"). And the main reason they're leading in any sales war is by discounting their cars at a level I haven't seen any car brand do before (says a lot about how the market values the cars they put out, market dictates price) with total artificially incentivized lease fleet propensity (something Audi doesn't practice as much in the States) and throwing new models out to the extent where they have a much larger lineup than even BMW (who are also practicing dilution for sake of mass). I personally don't think "winning" any sales race, how they are, is something to brag about. The way they discount and plop out models, I'd think there should be a larger gap (didn't BMW outsell them last year?).
The SLS was an original of its time.... even being a makeover of past model. I just don't think the AMG GT will have the same presence.
05-22-2015, 10:09 AM
#21
Beauty, as they say, is in the eye of the beholder, and I find all three cars very appealing. I hope everyone appreciates that we are enjoying the peak period of petrol powered performance cars. Although I'm not particularly worried about the future either given the success of hybrids and the potential of full electric (perhaps even with a synthesized sound track?).
Anyway, while I do admire both the Jag and the Benz, if a front-mid engine/long hood design was what I wanted, I'd probably buy American and get a Vette!
Anyway, while I do admire both the Jag and the Benz, if a front-mid engine/long hood design was what I wanted, I'd probably buy American and get a Vette!
05-22-2015, 10:20 AM
#22
Drifting
Granted I haven't driven one, but have sat in one. The cockpit feel is all wrong in relation to a 911. The shorter and low nose of the 911 not only offer great slghtlines, but you know where the nose is. All of that excess hood of the GT S, along with its cave like greenhouse, low to the ground, with a giant mirror covering up a nice portion of the small windshield, it just doesn't feel right.
05-22-2015, 10:39 AM
#23
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M-B winning a sales race in the way they are, is antithesis to what made them famous to begin with. And it's affecting brand regard and quality. The MB forum threads of guys horrified over how cheap CLA/GLA's are as loaner cars, is amusing. Less amusing is how M-B's quality rankings have been once again dragged through the mud after finally getting back up, now sitting amongst the bottom of the entire car industry. Quantity over quality has become their approach (i.e "an M-B for every garage"). And the main reason they're leading in any sales war is by discounting their cars at a level I haven't seen any car brand do before (says a lot about how the market values the cars they put out, market dictates price) with total artificially incentivized lease fleet propensity (something Audi doesn't practice as much in the States) and throwing new models out to the extent where they have a much larger lineup than even BMW (who are also practicing dilution for sake of mass). I personally don't think "winning" any sales race, how they are, is something to brag about. The way they discount and plop out models, I'd think there should be a larger gap (didn't BMW outsell them last year?).
-JD Power has their dependability at 8th, ahead of any luxury maker besides Lexus and Porsche. The initial quality dropped but it's still above industry average, contrary to what you're saying. Again you're being dramatic.
-Audi doesn't pump up incentives in the U.S. sure, but BMW sure does.
-Mercedes has always had a larger lineup than BMW/Audi.
-Mercedes is trying to catch up in the global sales race (hence the model proliferation) and the gap hasn't ever been narrower. And yes BMW beat them because...they have even more incentives. They sold 19k 3/4 series in the US in December 2014 alone.
Regardless, at the end of the day what's truly impressive is how Porsche can so comfortably sit on the crown. I love my 911 despite its small quirks and am really looking forward to the 991.2 (or is it 992?). I just hope the turbo motors don't ruin the pure feeling that sets these cars apart.
05-22-2015, 10:43 AM
#24
Three Wheelin'
I read the C&D article when it was published and my immediate thought was that, something was missing. I can't quite put my finger on it but these are my thoughts - feel free to add to or disparage them.
The MB and Jag want to compete with the 911 and that is great for everyone. The thing is,
PAG has an institutionalized conceptualization of the 911. In a way, everyone who has worked for PAG on the 911 has had the "evolution/not revolution" idea passed on to them, in addition to the whole idea of racing heritage. Love it or hate it PAG remains true to this idea while changing with the times (often annoying us with seemingly non-sensical changes for mass sales and to meet CAFE requirements). Now MB and JAG come along and manufacture fine cars with very competent engineers, designers, etc., but they don't seem to be doing so by staying true to their own ample history, at least from a design perspective. Consequently, the cars are quite capable and check all the boxes but when you apply them to a market segment they make less sense than when you look at them in a vacuum - maybe because instead of innovating they are re-working a Porsche idea over the course of a year or two or three that Porsche has been refining for 50+ years. In 10 years PAG will likely still be making an evolved 911 who's DNA you can trace back to 1963. That's quite a learning curve. I'm unsure if you could say the same for these current MB or Jag models. Maybe it does not make economic sense or just is not in the business plan for MB and Jag.
The MB and Jag want to compete with the 911 and that is great for everyone. The thing is,
PAG has an institutionalized conceptualization of the 911. In a way, everyone who has worked for PAG on the 911 has had the "evolution/not revolution" idea passed on to them, in addition to the whole idea of racing heritage. Love it or hate it PAG remains true to this idea while changing with the times (often annoying us with seemingly non-sensical changes for mass sales and to meet CAFE requirements). Now MB and JAG come along and manufacture fine cars with very competent engineers, designers, etc., but they don't seem to be doing so by staying true to their own ample history, at least from a design perspective. Consequently, the cars are quite capable and check all the boxes but when you apply them to a market segment they make less sense than when you look at them in a vacuum - maybe because instead of innovating they are re-working a Porsche idea over the course of a year or two or three that Porsche has been refining for 50+ years. In 10 years PAG will likely still be making an evolved 911 who's DNA you can trace back to 1963. That's quite a learning curve. I'm unsure if you could say the same for these current MB or Jag models. Maybe it does not make economic sense or just is not in the business plan for MB and Jag.
05-22-2015, 09:11 PM
#28
Cost was definitely a reason, but as you can see with the SLR before it they're stubbornly not going the mid-engine route. The payoff isn't there.
-Agree the CLA/GLA were too cheap to do good things for them- the A3 shows how it's done correctly. Very likely why MB has already started talking about the MFA2 platform that'll be here in calendar year 2018.
-JD Power has their dependability at 8th, ahead of any luxury maker besides Lexus and Porsche. The initial quality dropped but it's still above industry average, contrary to what you're saying. Again you're being dramatic.
-Audi doesn't pump up incentives in the U.S. sure, but BMW sure does.
-Mercedes has always had a larger lineup than BMW/Audi.
-Mercedes is trying to catch up in the global sales race (hence the model proliferation) and the gap hasn't ever been narrower. And yes BMW beat them because...they have even more incentives. They sold 19k 3/4 series in the US in December 2014 alone.
Many people would disagree, but that's all personal opinion.
Regardless, at the end of the day what's truly impressive is how Porsche can so comfortably sit on the crown. I love my 911 despite its small quirks and am really looking forward to the 991.2 (or is it 992?). I just hope the turbo motors don't ruin the pure feeling that sets these cars apart.
-Agree the CLA/GLA were too cheap to do good things for them- the A3 shows how it's done correctly. Very likely why MB has already started talking about the MFA2 platform that'll be here in calendar year 2018.
-JD Power has their dependability at 8th, ahead of any luxury maker besides Lexus and Porsche. The initial quality dropped but it's still above industry average, contrary to what you're saying. Again you're being dramatic.
-Audi doesn't pump up incentives in the U.S. sure, but BMW sure does.
-Mercedes has always had a larger lineup than BMW/Audi.
-Mercedes is trying to catch up in the global sales race (hence the model proliferation) and the gap hasn't ever been narrower. And yes BMW beat them because...they have even more incentives. They sold 19k 3/4 series in the US in December 2014 alone.
Many people would disagree, but that's all personal opinion.
Regardless, at the end of the day what's truly impressive is how Porsche can so comfortably sit on the crown. I love my 911 despite its small quirks and am really looking forward to the 991.2 (or is it 992?). I just hope the turbo motors don't ruin the pure feeling that sets these cars apart.
They still did have a drop in JD (and you will probably see it going down more if you follow the quality trends), but they got hammered in CR. CR and one other ranking review which I can't remember, had them at like 24th and below industry quality average. Yes, they've always had a larger lineup, therefore it's quite embarrassing that they're proud to be "catching up" to smaller lineup of vehicles by way of pumping out even more dilution than said competitors, going more downmarket, rather than reclaiming their previous sales "crown" by upping the quality and design of their current cars. Especially interesting when you travel to EU and see every other car as an M-B taxi. Or see E Classes in the States being leased for loaded Camry/Accord prices. Even the new C Class (who's launch has been a quality disaster on its own) is already getting regular (via the message board "deals" thread) 20% discounts. That's ridiculous and simply unbecoming for a brand newly launched car.
The GT S being such a shameless copy (as much as they can get away with) of the 911, then making cheesy commercials about how it "unseats" said 911 with no basis to do that (other than low brow advertising) is just quite unfortunate for the oldest car brand, who at one time, was the one being copied.
07-06-2015, 11:01 AM
#30
Surprised they didn't make a point of mentioning the 911 can still have a proper MT--no option on the other 2. It also has back seats. Two of the biggest reasons I would not consider either of the other two.