So is GTS looking to be possibly the last purist 911?
12-19-2014, 10:28 PM
#61
12-19-2014, 10:36 PM
#62
There's a few guys showing they have a decent perspective on things, but a lot more would do well to comb through some old back issues of R&T, etc. Do that and I guarantee you'll be shocked to see almost the exact same things being said about the 911 twenty, thirty years ago. Seriously. The sport/GT question is as old as the car itself!
As for the 'purist' question, whatever that means. There's definitely those who've made a fetish, or religion if you prefer, of the clutch pedal. For them I guess as long as there's a clutch they will cling to the 'purist' pose. For everyone else its been a long, slow slog.
If 'purist' means driver only no corrective systems, well Porsche introduced ABS (and power steering) on the 964 so the last purist 911 was the Carrera. But hey, what about fuel injection? Surely 'purist' means carburetors? Or does someone want to defend DFI as being more 'purist' than Weber? I don't think so.
So then the last 'purist' 911 was whatever year they made the last 911T. Which somebody can look up but off hand I'd say takes us back to the 60's.
Last I looked, we're just shy of 2015. Awful late to be talking about the last 'purist' 911. But there you go….
As for the 'purist' question, whatever that means. There's definitely those who've made a fetish, or religion if you prefer, of the clutch pedal. For them I guess as long as there's a clutch they will cling to the 'purist' pose. For everyone else its been a long, slow slog.
If 'purist' means driver only no corrective systems, well Porsche introduced ABS (and power steering) on the 964 so the last purist 911 was the Carrera. But hey, what about fuel injection? Surely 'purist' means carburetors? Or does someone want to defend DFI as being more 'purist' than Weber? I don't think so.
So then the last 'purist' 911 was whatever year they made the last 911T. Which somebody can look up but off hand I'd say takes us back to the 60's.
Last I looked, we're just shy of 2015. Awful late to be talking about the last 'purist' 911. But there you go….
12-19-2014, 10:57 PM
#63
Duly encouraged ... I've always felt that if there is any such thing as pure Porsche essence, it really has a lot less to do with the cars, per se, than most people might think. If that sounds heretical, well listen to the great man himself.
A little background. They were not filming a commercial, they wanted to capture Ferry's philosophy. Look what they got:
"We all have a desire to create something that will show we were here and did something of value. To create something timeless."
"It is the essence of the human spirit to seek a reason for being. This is why functional designs are so beautiful, so calming."
"Of course timeless design is wasted if it cannot survive. This is why we race and test our cars so hard."
"Creating something that time cannot erode, something which ignores time both physically and in concept, this is the ultimate victory."
Hard to improve on. And for as long as they heed the great mans words I feel safe in thinking the last purist Porsche is .... the newest Porsche.
A little background. They were not filming a commercial, they wanted to capture Ferry's philosophy. Look what they got:
"We all have a desire to create something that will show we were here and did something of value. To create something timeless."
"It is the essence of the human spirit to seek a reason for being. This is why functional designs are so beautiful, so calming."
"Of course timeless design is wasted if it cannot survive. This is why we race and test our cars so hard."
"Creating something that time cannot erode, something which ignores time both physically and in concept, this is the ultimate victory."
Hard to improve on. And for as long as they heed the great mans words I feel safe in thinking the last purist Porsche is .... the newest Porsche.
12-20-2014, 12:10 AM
#66
I thought it was appropriate that the2thdr brought up M3s. Those of us who are also ///M guys have seen this discussion rear its head in varied forms several times over the years. It is more ferocious than ever these days, of course, since BMW decided to introduce forced induction into the new M3...and, er, M4 (full disclosure: I'm still recovering). But the ///M purist discussion followed the end of each iteration (e30, e36, e46, now e90/2/3). Just wait until our beloved Carrera is officially turbocharged...there will be dozens of threads of this nature, including titles such as "No More 911", "Death of Porsche", and "VW Is Evil". 
12-20-2014, 12:13 AM
#67
My gut says the last purist 911 is the GT3 RS 4.0 - a car I can't afford and will likely never be able to.
I would point to the 4.0's rapid appreciation as the example of the free market agreeing with me.
On a slightly different note; I would even argue that at some point - Porsche became a luxury goods brand completely whored out for profit instead of a sports car company (as opposed to a sports car company whored out for profit
). I can't say exactly what date this happened but I can tell you that stepping into their LA Auto Show display which had it's own room at the show was the moment I realized it. Not even the 850k 918 on display was able to change that feeling. Hell - their showcase car behind glass was the Panamera Exclusive edition.
10 years ago the enthusiast argument on this website was; "well - it's okay they make the Cayenne because they're using that money to fund development on cars like the GT3" .... The new GT3 is a perfect example of Porsche now being willing to ***** those models out to the mass market as well.
As a company; the Porsche of old is off of life support and completely dead and as I believe that happened well before this 991 GTS model -- there's no way I can consider it a "purist" car.
(...and those of you ordering it really need to see the cheap plastic black vents on the back in person before you drop that much coin -- they were that bad)
I would point to the 4.0's rapid appreciation as the example of the free market agreeing with me.
On a slightly different note; I would even argue that at some point - Porsche became a luxury goods brand completely whored out for profit instead of a sports car company (as opposed to a sports car company whored out for profit
). I can't say exactly what date this happened but I can tell you that stepping into their LA Auto Show display which had it's own room at the show was the moment I realized it. Not even the 850k 918 on display was able to change that feeling. Hell - their showcase car behind glass was the Panamera Exclusive edition.10 years ago the enthusiast argument on this website was; "well - it's okay they make the Cayenne because they're using that money to fund development on cars like the GT3" .... The new GT3 is a perfect example of Porsche now being willing to ***** those models out to the mass market as well.
As a company; the Porsche of old is off of life support and completely dead and as I believe that happened well before this 991 GTS model -- there's no way I can consider it a "purist" car.
(...and those of you ordering it really need to see the cheap plastic black vents on the back in person before you drop that much coin -- they were that bad)
12-20-2014, 12:26 AM
#68
I thought it was appropriate that the2thdr brought up M3s. Those of us who are also ///M guys have seen this discussion rear its head in varied forms several times over the years. It is more ferocious than ever these days, of course, since BMW decided to introduce forced induction into the new M3...and, er, M4 (full disclosure: I'm still recovering). But the ///M purist discussion followed the end of each iteration (e30, e36, e46, now e90/2/3). Just wait until our beloved Carrera is officially turbocharged...there will be dozens of threads of this nature, including titles such as "No More 911", "Death of Porsche", and "VW Is Evil".
12-20-2014, 12:32 AM
#69
12-20-2014, 12:36 AM
#70
Ya...I heard all those arguments but I respect each version of those M cars for differing reasons and can see an argument that each one could be a "purist" car for different reasons. I just can't see how a 991 can be considered a "purist" car anymore. A great daily driver? Absolutely.
12-20-2014, 01:06 AM
#71
Duly encouraged ... I've always felt that if there is any such thing as pure Porsche essence, it really has a lot less to do with the cars, per se, than most people might think. If that sounds heretical, well listen to the great man himself.
A little background. They were not filming a commercial, they wanted to capture Ferry's philosophy. Look what they got:
"We all have a desire to create something that will show we were here and did something of value. To create something timeless."
"It is the essence of the human spirit to seek a reason for being. This is why functional designs are so beautiful, so calming."
"Of course timeless design is wasted if it cannot survive. This is why we race and test our cars so hard."
"Creating something that time cannot erode, something which ignores time both physically and in concept, this is the ultimate victory."
Hard to improve on. And for as long as they heed the great mans words I feel safe in thinking the last purist Porsche is .... the newest Porsche.
A little background. They were not filming a commercial, they wanted to capture Ferry's philosophy. Look what they got:
"We all have a desire to create something that will show we were here and did something of value. To create something timeless."
"It is the essence of the human spirit to seek a reason for being. This is why functional designs are so beautiful, so calming."
"Of course timeless design is wasted if it cannot survive. This is why we race and test our cars so hard."
"Creating something that time cannot erode, something which ignores time both physically and in concept, this is the ultimate victory."
Hard to improve on. And for as long as they heed the great mans words I feel safe in thinking the last purist Porsche is .... the newest Porsche.
Even per this quote; "this is why we race and test our cars so hard" -- no variant of the street 911 is raced (nor the Macan, Panamera, Cayenne, etc)
12-20-2014, 01:28 AM
#72
Race Director
The Porsche of the video isn't the Porsche of today in any way other than name. You might be able to find a few remnants of that Porsche in the motorsports division but that's it. Even per this quote; "this is why we race and test our cars so hard" -- no variant of the street 911 is raced (nor the Macan, Panamera, Cayenne, etc)
What would PORSCHE look like today if it had stuck to only making sports cars?
Had added another 3-4 sports car models instead of SUV's and sedans?
Interesting thought...
12-20-2014, 06:05 AM
#73
Rennlist Member
To answer the slightly expanded question of: "What would PORSCHE look like today if it had stuck to only making sports cars and engineering other products?" one can look to Lotus for a possible answer...
12-20-2014, 09:22 AM
#74
Race Director
The 911 will evolve as it does, but I think the company needs to be assessed on a bigger scale. After watching the Ferry video it really got me thinking.
I've come to the personal opinion that Porsche lost its "purist" legacy when they sold the first Cayenne and ventured beyond its sports car roots. Obviously it was criticized by the "purist" followers at the time. The argument was that it would give Porsche more money to make the 911 better and blah, blah ...
I would argue that if anything it has enabled them to gain more cost efficiencies building the 911 while still charging a premium and increased margins. When companies make additional product lines they usually treat them as separate entities with profits/losses. In this case the Macan and Cayenne are even made in separate factories. In Porsche's case, the additional luxury product lines have not helped the 911 I believe but only diluted the name.
The additional models have enabled Porsche to leverage it's brand name to sell to a broader audience and create a bigger company that may have strayed from its "purist" roots in the name of profits.
Is the 911 a great car and do I love it?? YES.
Had Porsche decided to expand its "purist" heritage and stuck to building more sports cars to to compete better against Ferrari, McLaren, Lamborghini, etc. on more than a 918 scale would they have still had success even at a possibly smaller bottom line? With such a strong racing history, there could easily have had 2-4 more models.
I think they would even have had more success with the Cayman and Boxster type offerings. I think the 911 should always be the matriarch of the brand, but they have been misguided in trying to cleverly position every other model around it as to not insult the king.
Would I prefer Porsche to be solely a sports car company? I think so...
I've come to the personal opinion that Porsche lost its "purist" legacy when they sold the first Cayenne and ventured beyond its sports car roots. Obviously it was criticized by the "purist" followers at the time. The argument was that it would give Porsche more money to make the 911 better and blah, blah ...
I would argue that if anything it has enabled them to gain more cost efficiencies building the 911 while still charging a premium and increased margins. When companies make additional product lines they usually treat them as separate entities with profits/losses. In this case the Macan and Cayenne are even made in separate factories. In Porsche's case, the additional luxury product lines have not helped the 911 I believe but only diluted the name.
The additional models have enabled Porsche to leverage it's brand name to sell to a broader audience and create a bigger company that may have strayed from its "purist" roots in the name of profits.
Is the 911 a great car and do I love it?? YES.
Had Porsche decided to expand its "purist" heritage and stuck to building more sports cars to to compete better against Ferrari, McLaren, Lamborghini, etc. on more than a 918 scale would they have still had success even at a possibly smaller bottom line? With such a strong racing history, there could easily have had 2-4 more models.
I think they would even have had more success with the Cayman and Boxster type offerings. I think the 911 should always be the matriarch of the brand, but they have been misguided in trying to cleverly position every other model around it as to not insult the king.
Would I prefer Porsche to be solely a sports car company? I think so...
12-20-2014, 12:47 PM
#75
Burning Brakes
So I would consider the Lotus Elise and new Alfa 4C Purist models of their respective brand. But unlike these cars the 911 has never broken production and has "matured". Each new version slowly transformed the car into what we see today, similar to the Corvette.
To somewhat fill the "purist Porsche" gap the Boxster/Cayman was created. More Spyder than Carrera it serves the purpose.
Porsche could certainly build a modern-retro 911 sports car. It would necessitate a clean sheet platform but think smaller engine/diff package pushed to the rear of a Cayman, add 2 seats (or not) and strip bare everything else that doesn't make it go faster. The cost element notwithstanding, it would probably cause brand confusion. Porsche would have to "want" this type of car because it certainly doesn't need it.
So, another option would be to follow Jaguar's lead and reproduce the/a classic 911.
http://www.sportscardigest.com/jagua...-reproduction/
..........Not a chance in hell but fun to dream.
B.
To somewhat fill the "purist Porsche" gap the Boxster/Cayman was created. More Spyder than Carrera it serves the purpose.
Porsche could certainly build a modern-retro 911 sports car. It would necessitate a clean sheet platform but think smaller engine/diff package pushed to the rear of a Cayman, add 2 seats (or not) and strip bare everything else that doesn't make it go faster. The cost element notwithstanding, it would probably cause brand confusion. Porsche would have to "want" this type of car because it certainly doesn't need it.
So, another option would be to follow Jaguar's lead and reproduce the/a classic 911.
http://www.sportscardigest.com/jagua...-reproduction/
..........Not a chance in hell but fun to dream.
B.