Instructor killed at Summit Point Raceway
06-10-2014, 12:17 AM
#17
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Apparently this was a 1-session event called "hyper-drive" where after a very short classroom presentation, the driver gets a single 15 minute session with the instructor to whip around the track. More of a joy-ride quickie than a true DE experience.
I've decided to retire from instructing, after 18 years, I'm all done. Fun while it lasted but I haven't really been groovin' on it the past few years anyways.....seen too many crashes time and time again.
I've decided to retire from instructing, after 18 years, I'm all done. Fun while it lasted but I haven't really been groovin' on it the past few years anyways.....seen too many crashes time and time again.
06-10-2014, 11:31 AM
#19
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Truly tragic--horrible news to hear.
I've heard it said that modern cars with the capabilities of say, the C6 Z06, are just too fast for regular trackdays/HPDE events without proper safety upgrades--race seats, harnesses, cage or at least a good rollbar. Z06s are easily obtained, relatively cheap to run, and consistently some of the fastest cars on the track during these events, and yet hardly any have meaningful safety upgrades. A few have harness bars behind the seats so that shoulder harnesses can be mounted, but that won't do squat for you in a rollover. I saw an advanced group driver with lots and lots of experience roll his Z06 at Watkins Glen a couple of years ago, pancaking the A-pillars. No rollbar--thankfully he was okay. But that incident, along with talking with various instructors, convinced me to put a rollbar in my 991.
I also appreciate the concern about instructing with today's cars and students. I had my 991C2S out last year on Summit Point Main circuit (a race course and far safer IMHO) because I was thinking about returning to instructing. I ran PCA DEs, instructed, raced and served as a steward with SCCA at Summit point for 20 years in various cars before quiting in the late 1980s. But based on the speeds I reached easily in the 991, rusty and aged as I am, I decided that I would not go out again without a rollcage.
Track first timers are now showing up in their first sports cars ...factory equipped with 600- 900 horsepower, with no end in sight, vs a 120 hp Miata , where you could enjoyably redline it in first five gears for almost a full minute on a winding country road , wind in the hair, and still not be at the speed of some of today's cars which get there in seconds , when throttle action is all done.
Heck, my first 911 28 years ago , and my 5th sporty car , had a whopping factory 217 hp , if I recall and the four before had less than 300 hp .....TOTAL !
I would argue , we had MORE fun with 100-300 hp back then than drivers with 400-900 hp today, because there was no internet bench racing forcing the numbers forever higher from every makes' marketing , not competition , departments.
wouldn't want to be the instructor who rides shotgun with the 25 y/o tech billionaire who shows up at Laguna Seca in his first car ( never mind sports car ) ...a McLaren P1
Heck, my first 911 28 years ago , and my 5th sporty car , had a whopping factory 217 hp , if I recall and the four before had less than 300 hp .....TOTAL !
I would argue , we had MORE fun with 100-300 hp back then than drivers with 400-900 hp today, because there was no internet bench racing forcing the numbers forever higher from every makes' marketing , not competition , departments.
wouldn't want to be the instructor who rides shotgun with the 25 y/o tech billionaire who shows up at Laguna Seca in his first car ( never mind sports car ) ...a McLaren P1
06-10-2014, 11:34 AM
#20
Drifting
As a pure novice at racing, what I don't understand is why can't the folks with the high powered cars just drive slower especially at a DE event?
06-10-2014, 01:48 PM
#22
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06-10-2014, 02:05 PM
#23
However, some people cant handle letting a Miata (or another suposedly slower car) pass them.
Also, anyone serious about it should hire a good instructor and learn safe techniques and not dwell so much on risky techniques like late braking, driving over berms and tracking out to the last inch of track.
People without dedicated race cars need to concentrate more on being mistake free than on risky maneouvers of overdriving.
Proper track experience actually puts safer drivers on our roads.
So I hope thimgs like this dont turn people off to track, but just make them more saftey conscious, in all driving situations.
06-10-2014, 03:08 PM
#24
The problem is not power, speed, roll cages, or even testosterone. These are all easy targets, like the tree. The real problem is the program. These things simply do not happen when the program is, top to bottom, education. Could be wrong, but I seriously doubt anyone has ever been killed, probably not even seriously injured, in professionally run educational programs like the ones Porsche runs, for example. High quality, safe, professionally run educational programs do not as a general rule go by names like HyperFest.
The good news is, the program approach that works really does work. Its logical, progressive, repeatable and- believe it or not- widely known. Skip Barber even has it all on YouTube for the whole world's benefit. You can watch Going Faster for free. Everyone should. The second half advances into racing techniques, but is well worth the time even for total street drivers, because it so clearly demonstrates that racing techniques are nothing more than standard driving skills performed in the flux of ever-changing conditions. In other words, traffic.
The good news is, the program approach that works really does work. Its logical, progressive, repeatable and- believe it or not- widely known. Skip Barber even has it all on YouTube for the whole world's benefit. You can watch Going Faster for free. Everyone should. The second half advances into racing techniques, but is well worth the time even for total street drivers, because it so clearly demonstrates that racing techniques are nothing more than standard driving skills performed in the flux of ever-changing conditions. In other words, traffic.
06-10-2014, 06:45 PM
#25
Had a Z06 a while back at Sebring that was bat out of hell fast down the straights, but was literally scary in the corners, loose and all over the place. Drivers letting it by because they were afraid he'd take them out. Still with decent times. Guess it's how you get there. Point and shoot horsepower may give you relatively quick times, and compensate for driver deficiency on the right track, however that in no way means you can drive....More people are going to get hurt I'm afraid.
06-11-2014, 08:55 AM
#26
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I wouldn't drive my 991 or '73 911 (has a 5-point harness) near a race track. They are street cars with no door bars or roll over protection. They have no fuel cells or fire protection.
My race car is safer but still requires driving carefully and watching out for those around you. A simple flat tire in a turn can put you hard into a wall.
My race car is safer but still requires driving carefully and watching out for those around you. A simple flat tire in a turn can put you hard into a wall.
06-11-2014, 05:41 PM
#27
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I was at Summit Point this weekend. Although I will admit I only heard the rumor of an instructor death on Sunday. It was like a whisper around the paddock that I refused to believe.
I have been running in HPDE 3 for almost 3 years now. There seems to be a natural progression at this point. Either go racing…or become an instructor…
Hell, my 370Z doesn’t fit into any class anyway. And I just heard that we are a man down…
I guess I have to sign up for the July 18th instructor clinic….
I have been running in HPDE 3 for almost 3 years now. There seems to be a natural progression at this point. Either go racing…or become an instructor…
Hell, my 370Z doesn’t fit into any class anyway. And I just heard that we are a man down…
I guess I have to sign up for the July 18th instructor clinic….
06-11-2014, 06:54 PM
#28
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Summit Point has a habit of taking severely crashed cars and towing them immediately around to the back of one of their utility buildings then throwing a tarp over them...then mum's the word. They don't stay out in the open for very long.
06-11-2014, 07:05 PM
#29
We had a car flat in one, the fastest turn on the track, probably doing about 125. After a nasty rollover and with the tire gone a little mark could be seen inside the rim right at the valve stem. It sure looked like incompetent tire mounting had damaged the stem resulting in this potentially fatal incident. (Everyone was okay.)
But these things hardly ever happen. This was the one and only incident I can recall ever seeing where the cause was mechanical. Every other time it was the driver. Its remarkable, when you think about it, especially considering how many cars out there are 10, 20, 30 years old.
Especially when it comes to cars that are new and extraordinarily well engineered, like the 991, safety is entirely in the hands of the driver. If that driver chooses to carefully and methodically progress through a respected and well-run driver development program there is no reason for him to expect to experience anything worse than some worn out brakes and tires. Anything less than that and all bets are off.
But these things hardly ever happen. This was the one and only incident I can recall ever seeing where the cause was mechanical. Every other time it was the driver. Its remarkable, when you think about it, especially considering how many cars out there are 10, 20, 30 years old.
Especially when it comes to cars that are new and extraordinarily well engineered, like the 991, safety is entirely in the hands of the driver. If that driver chooses to carefully and methodically progress through a respected and well-run driver development program there is no reason for him to expect to experience anything worse than some worn out brakes and tires. Anything less than that and all bets are off.
06-11-2014, 07:53 PM
#30
Hi Chuck, I agree that the vast majority of accidents happen when the driver runs out of talent versus a mechanical failure. I have seen a blown brake line on a Mustang and a wheel coming off on an Acura RSX, if I remember correctly. I have also seen a few flat tires, including one on my car when I cut the inside sidewall going over the back of the curb - driver error, not mechanical for sure.
The brake line was original and not SS and the wheel was after market, with a black finish. The official explanation was that when it got hot, the finish "failed" and the wheel loosened up. Or the heat cycles caused the lug bolts to loosen, don't really know the cause for sure.
Those are the only two "pure" mechanical failures I can recall in almost 20 years of track driving. Both of these could arguably have been prevented with a little extra diligence as well. There may have been more that I forgot.. Age and all.
The brake line was original and not SS and the wheel was after market, with a black finish. The official explanation was that when it got hot, the finish "failed" and the wheel loosened up. Or the heat cycles caused the lug bolts to loosen, don't really know the cause for sure.
Those are the only two "pure" mechanical failures I can recall in almost 20 years of track driving. Both of these could arguably have been prevented with a little extra diligence as well. There may have been more that I forgot.. Age and all.
