tguaturbo

Ok folks here is my report back from the Porsche Sport Driving School Masters course. The euphoria has only now after 24 hours upon return home begun to wear off. I was a bit nervous because I skipped the first course offered by them. There were two brothers from Finland who owned cars like Turbo S, GT2RS and Carrera GT and who had run tracks such as the “the ring” and were fast drivers. They too skipped the first class and this was their first time to run the course at Barber Motorsports.

The first session in the 991 CS we did a lead follow with Hurley himself and the Finland Brothers and when I was behind Hurley in the Turbo I hung with him fairly well but was taking the track in. When we would do a rotation and I was last they would pull on me by up to 10 car lengths. My ego pretty much was checked several times with those guys as towards the end of the session I hear Hurley say, over the loud speaker in all the cars, “ok guys, let’s let everyone catch up”.

In between two great sessions with other “top notch instructors”, we drove the 991 CS on a wet skid pad that was like being on ICE, making it push and oversteer in a figure 8. We also did auto X in the new Boxter which I had never done Auto X. The theme of this entire 2 day course from what I could tell what TRAIL BRAKING. It was a new introduction for me and by the sounds of it to all those who had been to the first class where I think they basically teach you to brake straight, let the car settle and then get on the power at mid corner. We did many exercises in trail braking in Cayman’s and boxters and of course the new 991 C2S which was all new to me.

The next session was in a Panamera GTS which I think had PDCC, PTV and definitely had PCCB’s. Holy Moly that car was pretty incredible around the course with PDK. The brakes made the car feel as though it weighed 3k lbs and I could not believe I was in a large sedan.

At some point we had instructors ride with us in the 991 and wouldn’t you know who I get? Mr. Hurley in the passenger seat. I was a little embarrassed when I did a less than smooth heal and toe and heard the words “sorry bout that” fall out of my mouth. At the end he said good driving Tom, nice job.

I had the pleasure of speaking with a guy who heads up the maintenance among other things for the school. I asked him what happens to all the cars when they are done with them? He told me they are sold with a disclaimer saying that they were PSDS cars and there is a discount attached. I my memory is right, he said something like 1% off dealer invoice and and additional 1% off each 1k miles on the car at the time of sale. I said, surely you guys do an accelerated maint schedule on these cars due to the nature of what they are put through? He said no, actually they get Mobil 1 at either every 12 mos. or a certain mileage for the car which I think was 15k miles whichever comes first. Wow! I was in shock about that, but he assured me that Mobil 1 does the job.

I then said, well how about the brake fluids, are you using a high temp fluid or changing the fluid after each 2 day event? Keep in mind, I think there were 25 drivers in my 2 day course and we did something like 2-3 sessions per day in groups of 10-12 drivers that revolved while other drivers were doing other activities so the cars were being driven pretty much nonstop each day. He said we flush the oem fluid one time per year and don’t need to bleed the calipers unless we know for a fact that a driver cooked the fluid. Ok, well how about race pads, do you use them, I asked? No OEM pads he said.

I will come back to this one in a bit. The tires are 20” and we were told to watch the pressures and in all the cars the TPMS screen was lit up at all times. Pretty much every time I got into a 991, the screen would read something like 45 front and 52 rear, I thought that was kinda high but what do I know since I don’t run 20’s on any of my cars and certainly not my track car who’s street tire hot track pressures don’t exceed 38-39.

So now it is day 2 and around 75 degrees in the late am and I have run the track in my mind visualizing it several times the night before while in bed and the morning of the 2nd day prior to getting out of bed. I am feeling pretty confident about the course and I am ready to drive fast and smooth. A session had just finished prior to us going out on the track so the cars, tires and brakes are warm/hot. I go out there now as an “open lap” session where we can pass and are not following instructors. I take it easy the first 2 laps and then get on it. As I come off one of the straights and begin to enter the chicane I go for my brakes and guess what? They are super soft such that I can’t make my turn in and drive off into the grass. I get the black flag and tell the instructor what happened. He asks me if I had pumped the pedal prior to going out to make sure I had brakes and I tell him no. He says pump the pedal now and go back out but not so hot and let them cool down a bit and when you feel they have come back you can resume your pace. I go out and after a straight which is turn 5 the hair pin the pedal completely drops to the floor and so I drive off once again into the lawn and circle back to safely get on the track. About that time it was time to do a cool down lap and pit.

I spoke with several instructors and they told me I was overdriving the brakes and possibly the car since it has PTV and traction control and with all that sliding and late braking things get hot. The original guy I spoke with about the maint schedules for the cars came up to me and said “ok, now I know why you were asking me about the fluids and pads. What kind of set up to you run?” I explained, that I run Motul and flush every 6 mos. and bleed the calipers after every 6-8 sessions. The general consensus from the instructors was, “these are street cars, not race cars and you have to be aware not to overdrive them”. Made sense I suppose. My only issue was that for the next two sessions with the 991, I had no confidence in the brakes and hence after the first 1/3 of each session I felt big time fade and as the day warmed up the tires got pretty greasy.

Now onto my Praise report! I finally got to drive a 997.2 GT3 and it had PCCB’s but I could not opt into Sport mode. Still the car was amazing and for an entire session I was able to get my confidence back! Brakes were there, CHECK. Power was there, CHECK. Suspension was there, CHECK. It made me wish I had an extra 20-25k to have been able to buy a 997 GT3 instead of a 996 GT3(keep in mind, I have yet to take my new to me 6/3 to the track so I may take it all back once I do). Also, I have to think that it would have been a 997 not 997.2 3 that I could have bought for the extra money if I had it. Boy o Boy the sound of the motor and the handling and chirping of the tires when going out of 2nd into 3rd was pretty cool.

Second to the gt3 for me was the new Boxter with PDK. Man that car was awesome on the course and no brake fade but was pretty darn quick. Ok, I will humbly say that to my extreme shock and joy, at the closing they announced some winners of an auto X competition that they had. My team came in last but we had a good time. Then they say the driver with the fastest Auto X lap was “””””ME”””””! Again, never ever have done auto X so not expecting this at all. Funny thing is that that the next lap after the fastest lap, I took out most of the outside cones and some of the inside cones of one of the turns he he he.

Finally, I have to say that ALL the instructors were FIRST CLASS dudes and extremely friendly and helpful. Would I go again? Yes! Next time it will be the Masters Plus and then maybe one day if I am lucky and super extra nice to my wifey the GT3 cup car class! I would recommend it to anyone and the food was great and I met a ton of very nice folks that share a love for driving and Porsches.

sfo

excellent and very interesting write up.

thanks.

Cowboys5

Excellent report and timely for me, as I am considering the one day intro course there.

CDinSing

Interesting comment on the tire pressures. I've been told keep hot pressure under 42 even while tracking in DE. If that is true those pressures sound high and I would expect the tires to get greasy. But who knows what the Pzeroes want?

simsgw

It certainly does make sense, but it puts them in an awkward position to talk about it at length. Whitehead and I discussed this at the Fontana Porsche Day a few weeks ago and we disagree somewhat. What follows is my professional opinion, not his. It is possible to 'overdrive' brakes like any other part of the car, but the essence is that the 997.2's, and probably any road-oriented Porsche, have an imbalance between power and brakes for track work. On any public road, this would not arise. But when racing, or when driving a DE day using racing technique, we drive ever deeper into corners to sustain that high speed we get with a powerful launch onto the preceding straight.

Our PCA Region CDI describes us racing veterans as accelerating into every corner "until you see God." It's not quite that dramatic, but only because your eye adjusts to the late braking as it does the high speeds of track work. Nevertheless, going that deep means the car has more time to build up energy on the preceding straight. That is what 'quick' means after all: a higher average kinetic energy. And the energy rises with the square of the speed.

Thus, the more powerful the car, the more energy you must remove to get down to the cornering limit for any particular corner. And that means the total energy the brakes must dissipate in every lap rises very rapidly as your lap times come down.

Some quick examples. When magazines bothered to test brakes for fade, they typically would brake from 80 mph down to rest. Then they would repeat that ten times watching for fade. That is a stringent test and a car that passes will never be a problem on public roads. An advanced novice who hits 80 mph on the straight and brakes down to 40 mph for a corner still puts 75% as much heat into the brakes. But only 75%. It is tough to find a track where that could be repeated even five times per lap, so a system that road tests without fade won't have any problems at the normal track day if driven properly at those speeds.

Now change the numbers to a trained DE driver. Say 100 on the straight and cornering at 45. That will put 25% more heat into the brakes than the road test 80-0 braking. Cars with superb brakes like Porsches probably can tolerate that for long periods, but extreme conditions would push their envelope.

Now bump it up to a racing driver who can corner faster. At 50 mph say. Sounds like it reduces the total braking requirement at first glance, but we will come off the preceding corner that much faster as well, so we'll hit 110 mph on that straight in the same car. Braking from 110 mph to 50 mph puts twice as much heat into the brakes as the advanced novice did going from 80 down to 40 mph. Do that five times in one lap and before you complete the third lap you've put double the heat into the system as would that road test editor braking ten times from eighty. And you won't stop. You'll keep it up for lap after lap.

Extracting that heat from the system requires more cooling mass. More air. I found the 997.2S brakes were fine at Streets of Willow with only two heavy braking zones in a 100-second lap. But we went to the classic course at Fairplex with chicanes added to slow things down for novices. It does, but a 997.2S driven aggressively has plenty of time on the remaining straights to reach three-digit speeds which have to be reduced to 50 or less for the twisty bits. That means five heavy braking zones in roughly the same lap time. On that course, my brakes did the same thing you're reporting. As things warmed up, I began going off, with the same braking points I'd used earlier. Very frustrating. I finally had to drive my C2S using the line for our road cars from the sixties with drum brakes.

This isn't really a criticism, just a fact of life. If we changed the brakes to a racing system, they would be too 'cold' for street use. That's not good. Dealing with unexpected demand for brakes, we want them now, not after they warm up. In racing, we know that coming off a long straight, the brakes need an extra second to warm up as we enter the corner. Our braking points take that into account. But we know the corner is coming. That won't cut it if a child runs in front of you.

We can push the system a little more toward track work without making it unusable on public roads. I changed to Motul 660 and brake lines covered with braided stainless steel to raise the acceptable operating temperature range. I kept the stock pads to avoid that issue of slow response from cold conditions, but I added more air flow to keep the operating temperatures lower under heavy braking. The GT-3 ducts are formed to direct the air slightly better, but they are not much larger. I installed GT-2 ducts instead. That lowers the mean operating temperature for any given track, so the two efforts meet in the middle so to speak.

I just sold that 997.2S, but it performed perfectly at the recent track sessions with those changes. Like you, I would have flushed the system more often if I'd kept the car. Every two years is fine with factory fluid in the system, but Motul 660 is more hygroscopic. We pay for the increased temperature tolerance with increased absorption of moisture from the atmosphere (which drops the boiling point again). I planned to flush the system every year at least, and I'd have been looking for symptoms of needing a flush after as little as six months.

This isn't an issue at all for public roads. Dumping the energy we do from 100+ mph down to 50 mph would be rare even on the unlimited Autobahns, and doing that repeatedly at twenty-second intervals is strictly a track requirement. Moreover, you can't even create the situation on track unless you're using racing techniques to bring down lap times. To overpress my 997.2 's system required a track with several heavy braking zones unlike anything we'd see on public roads.

Gary

Nine Nine One

Very good info thanks. I tracked my old 997 but feel a little squemish about tracking the new 991. So, I was thinking about the driving school to get a "fix" and also maybe pick up some new skills. Would people who have done this recommend starting with the 1 day course or going right to the 2 day? I was leaning towards the 1 day because then I could go back and do the 2 day (get a total of 3 days).

Thanks in advance for any guidance.

goatboy

The one-day class is a dead end, not a prerequisite for the Master's.

Considering travel cost and time, and lodging, for a 50% more cost you get 100% more driving with the two day class.

Frank 993 C4S

Nice write-up. Thank you!

I've been to this class several times when cars were still 997s and never ever had an issue with braking. What you wrote is a bit concerning to me. I've owned several Porsches and tracked them all without ever running into fading issues. It would be concerning if Stability Control on the 991 would be causing this.

BTW - checking the brakes before pit out is a must in any car. Thanks for the reminder.

Frank 993 C4S

I Disagree - if you have limited track experience, the one day class is a good entry point. It is also quite a bit cheaper.

goatboy

I'd do the two-day, no brainer.

The one-day course is $1,800 (plus $100 for insurance). The two day course is $3,200 (plus $200 for insurance). So, $1,900 for the first day, $1500 for the second day.

You're going to spend two days and $500-$1000 air fare getting there, regardless if you take the one day or two day course. Depending on what you time's worth, the travel time is $1000 or more. You'll need two days of lodging for the one day course (~$250/night) if you stay with the group at Ross Bridge Resort), but only one more night of lodging for the two-day course.

Factoring travel time, air fare, and lodging, the second day of Performance is cheap compared to the first day.

PSDS requires the two-day class in order to take the Masters, Masters Plus, and GT3 Cub classes. If you figure out what you're doing on the track, you really want the Masters class, where you get open track time the second day.

The (one-day) Precision and (two-day) Performance classes are all follow-the-leader on the track. If they have a few hot-shoes in the classes, they'll group them together and take you around the track faster. The skill level of participants goes up signfiicantly in the Masters, and way up in the Masters Plus. They turn you loose on the track the first day in Masters Plus, after just one 30-minute follow-the-leader session just to make sure you're not a goof ball.

They schedule the Performance (two-day) and the Masters so you can take them in one trip (e.g. Peformance Thursday and Friday, Masters Monday and Tuesday), with a weekend off for golfing, or college sports, Atlanta, etc.

The real PSDS junkies repeat the three-day Masters Plus class, figuring it's the most bang for the buck. I'm in that school of thought, expecially thowing in the fixed costs of travel time, air fare, and extra day of lodging for the first day.
(The dude from California's taken M+ 24 times, and still takes in along with the GT3 Cup class.)

I've been to M+ twice and going again in 2013, and 2014, and 2015... I'm putting off getting a 911 until I retire in 0.5 to 2.5 years, slumming around in a BMW of one kind or another until then. Annual or semi-annual M+'s at PSDS will hold me over until then. I'll pro'lly still go after I get a 911. (I'd have a hard time doing to my new car what I do to theirs.)

There is a risk that you'll hate driving fast, and spend most of your time vomiting and sleeping in the VW EuroVans that they cart everybody around in. But, statistically that's a small risk.

simsgw

I agree.
As opposed to the typical first-timer who sleeps outside the front gate to get back in as soon as they open.

Gary

Nine Nine One

Thanks for the divurgent opinions - it is always good to hear from people who have experienced things like this. Our business has two locations in GA and I travel there regularly, so, travel costs are not a big consideration since I can expense most of it. However, I will check out both classes...

Cowboys5

I think the one day versus two day comes down to experience and what you want out of it. In my case, to call me inexperienced is giving me way too much credit. I mean really green to the point where I'm initially more interested in driving all the different cars and learning about their potential than I am in breaking a track speed record. Remember, I own a Cayenne! In fact, I'm actually a bit tentative about driving such high speeds so I'm hoping they'll beat that out of me. On cost, it's a lot more expensive for the two day and rationalizations about the cost with hotel and traveling time sounds like trying to convince yourself. What I have in mind for a group of guys purely newbies, is the one day course followed by a round of golf on the second day to round out the weekend. That's a lot cheaper than $1500 for the second day. Anyway, i honestly believes it comes down to individual circumstances so to generalize about the different courses being best or simply not worth it is to over generalize. For some, baby steps is best. At the end of the day, I'm looking to have seeds sown for lengthier and more fulfilling Pcar experiences.

goatboy

Barber is the perfect place for a driving school. The track was originally designed as a private track for gazillionaire George Barber to play with his 1700 vintage motorcycles. So, it's more about turns and hills
than high-speed straight's. That keeps the speed down. You might get to 125 MPH in a C2S in Masters open track sessions. Although, during "Turbo time" I found myself thinking "I think I'll brake a little sooner here next lap."

For the first track sessions, they tell you to stay in fourth gear. Eventually, you get to use third. Even in Masters Plus they never explicity tell you you can use second coming out of turns 5 and 8.

My "experience" prior to the two day class was a free BMW "driving safety" class (a.k.a. autocrossing) in a 328i, Performance Delivery of a BMW at Spartenburg, watching the Speed channel, and one session of autocrossing a 70 h.p. VW Rabbit with 155-80/13 tires back in the 1970's.

If you've tracked a 997, you'll be ahead of 99.9% of the people at the two-day class.

There are plenty of PSDS videos on You Tube. A good prep would be to download a map of Barber, and watch the instructor videos, noting speeds at entrances of turns. I guess there are driving video games with 911's at Barber.

The key knowledge that newbie's don't fully understand or utilize is to stay 100% throttle on the straights, and then go to 100% ABS-assisted-if-necessary braking before the turn, easing off the brake as you go into the turn. The key to everything else is "smooth is fast." But, the end-of-stright +100% to -100% transition is the exception. They go over this beforehand, but most don't understand the implications until you get a hot-lap in an instructor-driven car at the end of the class.

My Masters class was in the rain. The +100% to -100% still works, even if restricted to 5500 RPM. (about the point where the 997.2's start resonating at full throttle). The other half of the class in the pits enjoyed watching my entrances into Turn 1. PSM prevented me from being stupid at the beginning of the straight; ABS stopped me from being stupid at the end of the striaght. I learned real quick not to have any tires on the painted stripes when stomping on the brake pedal, though. If it's raining, you don't get GT3 or Turbo time in Masters and Masters Plus; probably just as well.

The two day class has some Cayenne time in the woods, and 30-minute sessions in Caymens. They didn't make Panamera's when I went, but I'm sure they're trying to sell some of them, too.

If you don't buy my second-day-way-cheaper-than the-first arguement (which can be independently confirmed by an Excel spreadsheet, by the way), the other huge advantage of the two-day class is the ability to continue the sequence to Masters, Masters Plus, and GT3 Cup. Masters is SO much better than Performance that doing Precision and Performance to get to Masters would be a huge waste of money.

Gaven32

Very interesting review nice experience, Porsche is one of the best sports car "The indication of the car slightly differs from its forerunner, New model car is with 7-speed stick shift and 7-speend PDK Porsche’s double clutch i465 black indication".I like to drive it.