Will 991 be better than the GTS?
06-29-2011, 06:39 PM
#46
Rennlist Member
That said, looking at the photo again, with the cut lines up near the nav screen and down near the center armrest, it does look like there may be provision for a different dash/console layout, perhaps for the GT3/RS models.
All due respect, but you're jumping to a conclusion about the cockpit feel of the 991 just because it has some interior design elements of a different kind of car (the Panamera) that you are familiar with. I'm fairly certain that while it may share some console bits, that it's not going to have the "big dash and hood" (or the extra 1000 lbs of mass) that might make finding apexes a problem.
06-29-2011, 07:28 PM
#48
Burning Brakes
"All very GT-car, all very un-911."
More like the Carrera GT?
7 speed ZF Sequential shifting perhaps as an option.
Let's not slay the dragon quite yet, I'm with Mike in CA on this.
More like the Carrera GT?
7 speed ZF Sequential shifting perhaps as an option.
Let's not slay the dragon quite yet, I'm with Mike in CA on this.
06-29-2011, 07:45 PM
#49
Race Director
I can't judge the car from a few paragraphs in a small review. I need to see the car adn drive the car to pass my judgement.
06-29-2011, 07:52 PM
#50
Rennlist Member
06-29-2011, 08:56 PM
#52
Race Director
06-29-2011, 09:14 PM
#53
Rennlist Member
I should imagine the 997 GTS and the 991 S will be *very* close in performance ... I do wonder about the 3.4L 991 cars though (esp sharing an engine with Boxster/Cayman) ... 7spd manual and PDK could be interesting ...
I think I'd probably go GTS now rather than wait for 991 S later ... or wait for the 991 GTS!
I think I'd probably go GTS now rather than wait for 991 S later ... or wait for the 991 GTS!
06-29-2011, 11:00 PM
#54
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That statement never made any sense by definition of an-all-in-the-rear design. If the engine is behind the rear axle, when the WB is increased the engine is farther from the front axle, note closer.
The only way to move the engine forward as you say, is to flip the position of the tranny and engine, making it a true mid-engine architecture. Now with the longer WB, PAG has the room to do that, but doing so, it's no longer a 911, it just looks like one.
The only way to move the engine forward as you say, is to flip the position of the tranny and engine, making it a true mid-engine architecture. Now with the longer WB, PAG has the room to do that, but doing so, it's no longer a 911, it just looks like one.
06-29-2011, 11:21 PM
#55
Race Director
06-29-2011, 11:27 PM
#56
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991 will be better than GTS. Perhaps not the "base" 991, but at least the 991S will be.
While the downside to EVERY generation of 911 has been an increase in size/weight/"more gt" ish than the previous one, the overall performance numbers are almost always better (exception of the "midyear 1974-77 models NOT being better than pre '74)
It was buried in there that despite being larger, the BASE 991 is some 55lb lighter than the current 997. Despite a smaller motor (3.4) it makes more power too.
7 speed is the result of needing to reduce emissions and improve fuel economy.
While the downside to EVERY generation of 911 has been an increase in size/weight/"more gt" ish than the previous one, the overall performance numbers are almost always better (exception of the "midyear 1974-77 models NOT being better than pre '74)
It was buried in there that despite being larger, the BASE 991 is some 55lb lighter than the current 997. Despite a smaller motor (3.4) it makes more power too.
7 speed is the result of needing to reduce emissions and improve fuel economy.
06-30-2011, 12:37 AM
#57
Nordschleife Master
Not true. On the wide-body 997's there's enough room for the drive shafts to angle backwards, and the engine can be moved forward. For example the 997 RSR actually has the engine moved slightly forward compared to the road cars, such that the center of mass of the engine/tranny is near the middle of the rear axle, not behind the rear axle.
What does 'slightly' mean? What is the offset between the center of the wheels and the diff axis in the RSR?
06-30-2011, 02:08 AM
#58
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
[QUOTE=ADias;8674093]This was posted on 6speedonline re a C&D preview:
FEATURE: THE DESERT FOX
THE DESERT FOX
Porsche's new 911 is in final development in South Africa. We tag along for a ride.
by Juergen Zoellter
Beyond the lift-throttle oversteer, beyond the repair bills, and beyond the accusations of sexual inadequacy, most Porschephiles' longest-standing fear is that Zuffenhausen is going to screw up the 911. This is especially true when they know there are big changes coming. Well, this new 911, code-named 991 and set to debut in September, is larger and built to accommodate a hybrid powertrain. How's that for terrifying? Kinda makes watercooled engines seem like small- er cup holders, no? But if our first experience with the preproduction car is any indication, there's nothing to fear.
We have flown to South Africa to join August Achleitner, the man known as "Mr. 911," responsible for all 911-series cars, and 991 project leader Bernd Kahnan for the car's final chassis-tune shakedown. First question to Achleitner: "How will you keep the soul of the 911 intact?" He smiles and urges calm. "We sharpened the 911 by making it faster, more responsive, safer, and more environmentally friendly. But we didn't mess it up!"
That's certainly true of the bodywork, which is stretched and pulled but still unmistakably 911, even under the camouflage. The car's body is 2.2 inches longer than the outgoing 997 and sits on a 4.0-inch-longer wheelbase. This is to make real estate available for the coming-for-2016 hybrid version's electric motor and components. The front and rear overhangs are shorter, by 1.3 and 0.5 inch respectively, and the car's roofline is lower by 0.5 inch. Because our particular 911 S is outfitted with the sport suspension, it crouches an additional 0.7 inch closer to the pavement.
Dimensional changes to the greenhouse may seem equally small on paper, but they have the effect of making the whole car look sleeker. The windshield is more convex and its rake faster in the interest of aerodynamics -- the new 911's Cd is a claimed 0.29, identical to the 997's. Porsche moved the base of the A-pillars forward by 1.4 inches. And the center bottom of the glass punches out by a meaningful 3.2 inches so that, in combination with a full-length sunroof and more shoulder room, the cabin feels much airier than before. But the back seat is still only useful for the tiniest of children and dogs. Standing on 19- (regular 911) and 20-inch (911 S, optional for 911) wheels, the 991 looks ready to pounce.
Sliding into the car's seat is as easy as ever. The shells are made of aluminum and covered with flat, leather-wrapped pads, offering the comfort and lateral support we've come to expect from a 911. The major differences inside are the Panamera-like door trim, gauges, and sweeping center console, which sacrifices the 911's mechanical parking brake to the electronic gods. But thanks to the higher position of the shorter gear lever, the distance your right hand has to move from the steering wheel to the gearshifter is lessened. Small compensation for all the shared parts and the loss of the auxiliary steering control between the seats.
Crank the key with your left hand, and the engine wakes up with a low-frequency belch and a high-frequency whine. Sort of like a mother-in-law. The Carrera S is powered by the 3.8-liter flat-six with direct injection. It makes 400 horsepower at 7200 rpm, and the rev limiter doesn't kick in until 7600 rpm. The power is chopped up by either a seven-speed manual gearbox (yes, that's seven speeds) or the seven-speed PDK dual-clutch automatic, both made by ZF.
The base 911 loses the 3.6-liter; it now shares the 3.4-liter, direct-injected flat-six with the Boxster S. In the 911, it makes 350 horsepower at 6400 rpm and max torque of 280 pound-feet between 4400 and 6000 rpm. Like the Carrera S, it also offers the choice of ZF's manual or dual-clutch automatic seven-speed.
Porsche gave us a provisional 0-to-60 time of 4.5 seconds and a top speed of 186 mph. Launch control, a feature that will no longer be exclusive to PDK-equipped versions of the 911, should shave considerable time from that conservative sprint figure (we launched the previous Carrera S manual to 60 in 3.9 seconds).
Why are we so sure this bigger car will be quicker? Because it's lighter. Its curb weight is some 55 pounds lower than the 997's due to more extensive use of high-strength steel. And the hybrid version, with its aluminum chassis components and roughly 80-percent high-strength steel, will shave off an additional 22 pounds.
But, as noted, the hybrid Carrera S is four years away; it is due to arrive with the car's midcycle refresh. Even without dual-source power, though, the 2012 911 posts significantly better consumption figures than those of the outgoing car: On the European combined cycle, the 991 quaffs between 12 and 15 percent less fuel, depending on the engine and transmission configuration.
Achleitner hops behind the wheel and heads into the Hawequa Mountains on narrow R101 North out of Paarl. He changes throttle position more than is strictly necessary in order to demonstrate the flat-six's responsiveness. It sounds great -- roaring and burbling under increasing load, snarling menacingly after the engine comes on the cam at 3600 rpm. Above 6000 rpm, the sound coming from behind us is like that of a chain saw tearing down an oak. But we were long gone before we could check for sawdust.
As with the classic, raunchy engine note, steering sensitivity is one of the things that makes a 911 a 911. The development crew was intent on preserving its feel with the new electric-assisted system. "And yet," Achleitner tells us, "it does not transmit as much impact from bad surfaces as before." As we watch his hands work the wheel, we witness no corrections, not even slight ones, at high speed on rough surfaces -- a fairly large change from the more nervous 997.
Achleitner also demonstrates the car's reduced tendency to understeer at tight corner entries. The car reacts more neutrally and does not jiggle over expansion joints anymore due to the fitting of softer anti-roll bars and a 2.1-inch-wider track (60.6 inches) up front. Additionally, the new torque-vectoring differential helps to stabilize the car's back end during load changes in corners. The limited slip provides up to 28-percent lock under throttle and opens completely when you lift.
There was plenty of adjustment work needed in implementing new parts, as Achleitner explains: "For example, carrying over the dynamic engine mounts from the GT3 and the 911 Turbo is relatively simple. But to adjust them to work properly took us thousands of kilometers to dial in." It seems to have been worth the trouble. From the passenger seat, the 991 comes across as the most stable 911 ever built, with minimal loss of directional stability during braking and less front-end washout at the limit.
Of course, this new 911 comes with separate buttons for damper adjustment and dynamic driving modes, as well as the special "journalist button" to fully deactivate stability control, or as Porsche calls it, PSM (Porsche Stability Management). The system stays idle as long as the driver doesn't touch the brake pedal, at which point PSM kicks in again.
But what about the Nürburgring times, Achleitner? No Porsche story is complete without those! The regular 991 does it in 8 minutes 4 seconds, the 991 S in 7:50. "With the best setup, we did 7:37," he says. For some reason, he doesn't want to tell us what his best setup looks like. Maybe it's with the optional carbon-ceramic brakes. Or maybe it's all the little things adding up, as always.
FUN WITH STICKERS
LOOK CLOSELY, and you'll notice that the graphics of this new 911 look surprisingly like those of the outgoing model. That's exactly what Porsche wants you to think. In a novel attempt to camouflage the new car, Porsche used photographic stickers based on current 911 lights and intakes. New rear LED clusters are visible through the adhesive disguise. Fake scoops hide the added length. And for night drives, Porsche cut holes in the headlight stickers.
[/QUOT
Wow. Great information. Thanks. I think this makes the GTS sound better though. I wonder if you will still be able to soup it up with the X51 option?
Jim
FEATURE: THE DESERT FOX
THE DESERT FOX
Porsche's new 911 is in final development in South Africa. We tag along for a ride.
by Juergen Zoellter
Beyond the lift-throttle oversteer, beyond the repair bills, and beyond the accusations of sexual inadequacy, most Porschephiles' longest-standing fear is that Zuffenhausen is going to screw up the 911. This is especially true when they know there are big changes coming. Well, this new 911, code-named 991 and set to debut in September, is larger and built to accommodate a hybrid powertrain. How's that for terrifying? Kinda makes watercooled engines seem like small- er cup holders, no? But if our first experience with the preproduction car is any indication, there's nothing to fear.
We have flown to South Africa to join August Achleitner, the man known as "Mr. 911," responsible for all 911-series cars, and 991 project leader Bernd Kahnan for the car's final chassis-tune shakedown. First question to Achleitner: "How will you keep the soul of the 911 intact?" He smiles and urges calm. "We sharpened the 911 by making it faster, more responsive, safer, and more environmentally friendly. But we didn't mess it up!"
That's certainly true of the bodywork, which is stretched and pulled but still unmistakably 911, even under the camouflage. The car's body is 2.2 inches longer than the outgoing 997 and sits on a 4.0-inch-longer wheelbase. This is to make real estate available for the coming-for-2016 hybrid version's electric motor and components. The front and rear overhangs are shorter, by 1.3 and 0.5 inch respectively, and the car's roofline is lower by 0.5 inch. Because our particular 911 S is outfitted with the sport suspension, it crouches an additional 0.7 inch closer to the pavement.
Dimensional changes to the greenhouse may seem equally small on paper, but they have the effect of making the whole car look sleeker. The windshield is more convex and its rake faster in the interest of aerodynamics -- the new 911's Cd is a claimed 0.29, identical to the 997's. Porsche moved the base of the A-pillars forward by 1.4 inches. And the center bottom of the glass punches out by a meaningful 3.2 inches so that, in combination with a full-length sunroof and more shoulder room, the cabin feels much airier than before. But the back seat is still only useful for the tiniest of children and dogs. Standing on 19- (regular 911) and 20-inch (911 S, optional for 911) wheels, the 991 looks ready to pounce.
Sliding into the car's seat is as easy as ever. The shells are made of aluminum and covered with flat, leather-wrapped pads, offering the comfort and lateral support we've come to expect from a 911. The major differences inside are the Panamera-like door trim, gauges, and sweeping center console, which sacrifices the 911's mechanical parking brake to the electronic gods. But thanks to the higher position of the shorter gear lever, the distance your right hand has to move from the steering wheel to the gearshifter is lessened. Small compensation for all the shared parts and the loss of the auxiliary steering control between the seats.
Crank the key with your left hand, and the engine wakes up with a low-frequency belch and a high-frequency whine. Sort of like a mother-in-law. The Carrera S is powered by the 3.8-liter flat-six with direct injection. It makes 400 horsepower at 7200 rpm, and the rev limiter doesn't kick in until 7600 rpm. The power is chopped up by either a seven-speed manual gearbox (yes, that's seven speeds) or the seven-speed PDK dual-clutch automatic, both made by ZF.
The base 911 loses the 3.6-liter; it now shares the 3.4-liter, direct-injected flat-six with the Boxster S. In the 911, it makes 350 horsepower at 6400 rpm and max torque of 280 pound-feet between 4400 and 6000 rpm. Like the Carrera S, it also offers the choice of ZF's manual or dual-clutch automatic seven-speed.
Porsche gave us a provisional 0-to-60 time of 4.5 seconds and a top speed of 186 mph. Launch control, a feature that will no longer be exclusive to PDK-equipped versions of the 911, should shave considerable time from that conservative sprint figure (we launched the previous Carrera S manual to 60 in 3.9 seconds).
Why are we so sure this bigger car will be quicker? Because it's lighter. Its curb weight is some 55 pounds lower than the 997's due to more extensive use of high-strength steel. And the hybrid version, with its aluminum chassis components and roughly 80-percent high-strength steel, will shave off an additional 22 pounds.
But, as noted, the hybrid Carrera S is four years away; it is due to arrive with the car's midcycle refresh. Even without dual-source power, though, the 2012 911 posts significantly better consumption figures than those of the outgoing car: On the European combined cycle, the 991 quaffs between 12 and 15 percent less fuel, depending on the engine and transmission configuration.
Achleitner hops behind the wheel and heads into the Hawequa Mountains on narrow R101 North out of Paarl. He changes throttle position more than is strictly necessary in order to demonstrate the flat-six's responsiveness. It sounds great -- roaring and burbling under increasing load, snarling menacingly after the engine comes on the cam at 3600 rpm. Above 6000 rpm, the sound coming from behind us is like that of a chain saw tearing down an oak. But we were long gone before we could check for sawdust.
As with the classic, raunchy engine note, steering sensitivity is one of the things that makes a 911 a 911. The development crew was intent on preserving its feel with the new electric-assisted system. "And yet," Achleitner tells us, "it does not transmit as much impact from bad surfaces as before." As we watch his hands work the wheel, we witness no corrections, not even slight ones, at high speed on rough surfaces -- a fairly large change from the more nervous 997.
Achleitner also demonstrates the car's reduced tendency to understeer at tight corner entries. The car reacts more neutrally and does not jiggle over expansion joints anymore due to the fitting of softer anti-roll bars and a 2.1-inch-wider track (60.6 inches) up front. Additionally, the new torque-vectoring differential helps to stabilize the car's back end during load changes in corners. The limited slip provides up to 28-percent lock under throttle and opens completely when you lift.
There was plenty of adjustment work needed in implementing new parts, as Achleitner explains: "For example, carrying over the dynamic engine mounts from the GT3 and the 911 Turbo is relatively simple. But to adjust them to work properly took us thousands of kilometers to dial in." It seems to have been worth the trouble. From the passenger seat, the 991 comes across as the most stable 911 ever built, with minimal loss of directional stability during braking and less front-end washout at the limit.
Of course, this new 911 comes with separate buttons for damper adjustment and dynamic driving modes, as well as the special "journalist button" to fully deactivate stability control, or as Porsche calls it, PSM (Porsche Stability Management). The system stays idle as long as the driver doesn't touch the brake pedal, at which point PSM kicks in again.
But what about the Nürburgring times, Achleitner? No Porsche story is complete without those! The regular 991 does it in 8 minutes 4 seconds, the 991 S in 7:50. "With the best setup, we did 7:37," he says. For some reason, he doesn't want to tell us what his best setup looks like. Maybe it's with the optional carbon-ceramic brakes. Or maybe it's all the little things adding up, as always.
FUN WITH STICKERS
LOOK CLOSELY, and you'll notice that the graphics of this new 911 look surprisingly like those of the outgoing model. That's exactly what Porsche wants you to think. In a novel attempt to camouflage the new car, Porsche used photographic stickers based on current 911 lights and intakes. New rear LED clusters are visible through the adhesive disguise. Fake scoops hide the added length. And for night drives, Porsche cut holes in the headlight stickers.
Wow. Great information. Thanks. I think this makes the GTS sound better though. I wonder if you will still be able to soup it up with the X51 option?
Jim
06-30-2011, 02:21 AM
#59
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
06-30-2011, 04:00 AM
#60
I wouldn't worry about the Boxster engine being in the base carerra. The new dfi 3.4 is an absolute screamer. It sounds way better than the 3.8 and revs likes a tasmanian devil. I'm definitely more interested in the base model, it'll be lighter and ride on 19s. Cheaper to run and, in Europe, way cheaper to tax!!
I only wish it were on 18s. Those 20s look horrible. And I honestly don't mind if the cabin gets quieter from the point of view of road noise. No one seems to have picked up on this. I must be getting older but I like quiet on the motorway. And on the twisties a reduction in collatoral noise means you can enjoy the engine note more.
Hating the fake transmission tunnel. Don't those Porsche designers have mistresses?
I only wish it were on 18s. Those 20s look horrible. And I honestly don't mind if the cabin gets quieter from the point of view of road noise. No one seems to have picked up on this. I must be getting older but I like quiet on the motorway. And on the twisties a reduction in collatoral noise means you can enjoy the engine note more.
Hating the fake transmission tunnel. Don't those Porsche designers have mistresses?