"911 has become the BMW 5 Series of sports cars"
12-19-2010, 02:01 PM
#16
Race Director
I think that it's a matter of balance - I owned an Elise for 4 years, and it is a wonderful car when it is doing what it was designed to do (go fast on winding roads), and a PIA when it is not (driving on concrete highways, parking in the city, driving when it's really hot out, or really cold, or wet or...). So as an occasional car, it was great, but not as a daily driver. The 997 is pretty comfortable, pretty quiet, and certainly sporting enough for every day and weekend use. It is more attractive and has a more refined interior than my C6 Corvette had, and doesn't suffer from the gremlins and ether-network of dealers that my Ferrari had. It's faster, and more fun, and better looking than my M3 was (and for me, more comfortable). I agree with another poster when you say that if the 997 was Elise-like it wouldn't sell, as you can see by the sales and resale value of the Lotus mark (and believe me, I love Lotus and want them to proper).
I believe that the 997 is as "exotic" a car as you can have, and drive it daily. Move toward the Ferrari/Lambo/Lotus end of the scale and there are sacrifices that will be acceptable to some, but not the majority of buyers - move toward the M3/Corvette/whatever end of the scale and there are other tradeoffs that have more to do with what you like and can afford, than whether the car is truly practical for daily use. This, I believe, is the fine line that Porsche chooses to walk when designing each generation of 911 variant cars, and failure is very very expensive (remember the 964 years...I do).
I believe that the 997 is as "exotic" a car as you can have, and drive it daily. Move toward the Ferrari/Lambo/Lotus end of the scale and there are sacrifices that will be acceptable to some, but not the majority of buyers - move toward the M3/Corvette/whatever end of the scale and there are other tradeoffs that have more to do with what you like and can afford, than whether the car is truly practical for daily use. This, I believe, is the fine line that Porsche chooses to walk when designing each generation of 911 variant cars, and failure is very very expensive (remember the 964 years...I do).
12-19-2010, 02:06 PM
#17
Race Director
if one is thinking about the Regular Carrera models I'd say yes. It seems like P wants all its bases covered by offering so many variations. Drove the brand new 5series. Very nice and very big. The electric steering is $hit. Steering felt like a Lexus. Not for me. The previous gen m5 was/is awesome but I'm not ready to get rid of my e39 m5.
Hearing that the next gen 911 will have an even more luxurious interior. Thats fine as long as its weight is not increased. Could not care less for more HP.
Hearing that the next gen 911 will have an even more luxurious interior. Thats fine as long as its weight is not increased. Could not care less for more HP.
12-19-2010, 02:34 PM
#18
Instructor
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I've considered the issues presented here and believe that my best option for the future sports cars
may be with McLaren -- they will likely produce a sub MP4 12 C for just under 200K. At least I won't see
McLaren suv's.....
PS. I think I'm leaning to a 2011 GT3 now...... maybe ditch the GTS as I'm doing more track events.
may be with McLaren -- they will likely produce a sub MP4 12 C for just under 200K. At least I won't see
McLaren suv's.....
PS. I think I'm leaning to a 2011 GT3 now...... maybe ditch the GTS as I'm doing more track events.
12-19-2010, 02:44 PM
#19
Nordschleife Master
Latest 991 renditions...
These pics must be close to the final version. Clearly a larger car (notice the apex of the side rear window in front of the front axle, denoting a longer WB), a bloated front, a very large sunroof, and an overly complex rear hatch. It lost line purity, for sure.
12-19-2010, 02:51 PM
#21
The new 5 series has lost some of the handling and road feel that have made BMWs good drivers' cars. This is what some BMW enthusiats are less than happy with in the new 5. Something that BMW may fix with future updates to the current model. OTOH, the current 997 911 will outperform its predessors in every way. The 997 was a hit right out of the box. The comparison of the new 5 and current 911 is not valid and it's too early to draw conclusions on the 991.
Furthermore, Porsche will make a 911 to fit anyone's taste. If the author of that Excellence article wants a pure sports 911, he can buy a 911 GT3 or even option a base Carrera with nothing but the bare essentials. The Boxster Spyder is another Porsche that is aimed at one wanting a pure sports car experience. Porsche has broadened it's line up to SUVs and Sedans, but still makes a variety of sports cars that can be tailor made to one's needs, and overall their strategy has worked in the market place.
Last edited by Mspeedster; 12-19-2010 at 03:09 PM.
12-19-2010, 03:03 PM
#22
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Say what you will but after trying my 997.2 C4S DD on the track, my conclusion is that Porsche has added some comfort without losing the sports car performance. What's not to like? My RS is brilliant but it is not a DD in my view.
12-19-2010, 03:06 PM
#23
I agree that it has lost purity in the sense that its lines are not as clean as the 997's, and yes bigger than I would have liked. But those are the first spy pics that have actually gotten me excited about the prospects of the 991. Now the question will be how does it drive. If it's a big leap a head of the 997, I'm sold.
12-19-2010, 03:31 PM
#24
To me, it is all about balance. The thing I have always liked about Porsche is that the cars are designed to be driven everyday - unlike a Ferrari. The other thing is that our collective expectations rise over time.
I have had a 1988 Carrera for the last 8 years, and it is a blast to drive. It is raw, has no driver aids, and goes fast enough for me on the street. However, I feel it is no longer appropriate as a daily driver because it lacks modern safety features and its handling can be a bit tricky at the limit.
I went and test drove the new Carrera's, and I felt they tilted a little too much to the everyday. They clearly were better cars in every way than my 1988, but for me, had too much non-driving electronics, and I also felt the need to press the sport button as soon as I started the car.
I next drove a GT3, and I was completely smitten. Yes, it is louder and rougher than the new Carrera's, but it is quieter and smoother than the 1988. It has the modern safety features, but isn't focused on the non-driving electronics (nav, stereo, telephone). I bought it.
To me the GT3 had the right balance - it is all about driving, while the 997.2 seemed more like a typical car (obviously not "typical" on any performance measure, but trying to give as mainstream a driving environment as possible). Many people say (even Porsche owners) that I am crazy to use the GT3 as a DD as it lacks the creature comforts that they require, but I like it just fine.
Hopefully Porsche will continue its multiple sports car strategy, so as many people as possible can find the Porsche that fits them best.
David
_____________________
2008 GT3
1988 Carrera 3.2 (for sale)
I have had a 1988 Carrera for the last 8 years, and it is a blast to drive. It is raw, has no driver aids, and goes fast enough for me on the street. However, I feel it is no longer appropriate as a daily driver because it lacks modern safety features and its handling can be a bit tricky at the limit.
I went and test drove the new Carrera's, and I felt they tilted a little too much to the everyday. They clearly were better cars in every way than my 1988, but for me, had too much non-driving electronics, and I also felt the need to press the sport button as soon as I started the car.
I next drove a GT3, and I was completely smitten. Yes, it is louder and rougher than the new Carrera's, but it is quieter and smoother than the 1988. It has the modern safety features, but isn't focused on the non-driving electronics (nav, stereo, telephone). I bought it.
To me the GT3 had the right balance - it is all about driving, while the 997.2 seemed more like a typical car (obviously not "typical" on any performance measure, but trying to give as mainstream a driving environment as possible). Many people say (even Porsche owners) that I am crazy to use the GT3 as a DD as it lacks the creature comforts that they require, but I like it just fine.
Hopefully Porsche will continue its multiple sports car strategy, so as many people as possible can find the Porsche that fits them best.
David
_____________________
2008 GT3
1988 Carrera 3.2 (for sale)
12-19-2010, 03:41 PM
#25
I agree that this must be close as it approximates recent spy photos into photoshopped renditions. Looks great to me. We'll have to see how it drives, and I'm sure it will be great.
12-19-2010, 03:45 PM
#26
12-19-2010, 03:49 PM
#27
Three Wheelin'
I agree - those pics look like they will be pretty close. I don't know if they got an inside look or craftily photoshopped away the camo, but the proportions and details seem closer than any other fakes - not sold on the front air vents - nothing in the spy shots look like that and the rear lights as well.
Some things about it look cool - but the front looks stubby and short as indicated also by many of the spy shots. I'm not loving that evolution away from the originals. And have the 20in wheel fad guys won (despite spy shots with lobster forks)? Surely that is magazine hype. But we'll have to see the "real" real thing to know for sure.
Some things about it look cool - but the front looks stubby and short as indicated also by many of the spy shots. I'm not loving that evolution away from the originals. And have the 20in wheel fad guys won (despite spy shots with lobster forks)? Surely that is magazine hype. But we'll have to see the "real" real thing to know for sure.
12-19-2010, 04:13 PM
#28
Race Director
If Porsche does nothing to change the 911 you hear the chorus of negative comments about anachronistic styling, aging platform, lazy design (see JC on Top Gear), etc. If Porsche does make changes you hear the howls from the purists that they are straying from the historic ideal. When a car becomes iconic like the 911, everyone becomes hyper-critical, and Porsche are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
If the pics above are a close representation of the new 991 I'm not displeased. It appears they have walked a reasonable line between tradition and modernization, something they have to do to keep the model viable. And as was pointed out in an earlier post, the car will eventually be available in enough flavors that you will be able to own a high performance DD, a track monster, or something in between.
I've owned several iterations of 911 and this one is certainly readily identifiable as part of the line styling-wise, despite the tweaks. How it drives, of course is cruicial, but if I had to bet money it would be that they get that part right too.
If the pics above are a close representation of the new 991 I'm not displeased. It appears they have walked a reasonable line between tradition and modernization, something they have to do to keep the model viable. And as was pointed out in an earlier post, the car will eventually be available in enough flavors that you will be able to own a high performance DD, a track monster, or something in between.
I've owned several iterations of 911 and this one is certainly readily identifiable as part of the line styling-wise, despite the tweaks. How it drives, of course is cruicial, but if I had to bet money it would be that they get that part right too.
12-19-2010, 04:20 PM
#29
Poseur
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Translation: The new 911 (elfer) -- king of the Ring.
Porsche will soon be playing their trump card, with the same impact upon the next 911 Carrera as with the current one (997). Zuffenhausen will be determining the basic architecture for VW's line of sports cars and large sedans in the future. And what about Audi? They see 'trench warfare' about to ensue.
Beneath the photo:
The more sharply edged, stronger 911 shows the sharpest changes since the premier of the waterboxers. The flares have swelled another 60mm wider, featuring an entirely new rear suspension. The S-model will get larger brakes. From the wheel, Porsche fans will get a more exacting feel--with electromechanical steering.
Recently, I had the opportunity to see the start of these cars next to the latest--the growth is incredible.
Porsche will soon be playing their trump card, with the same impact upon the next 911 Carrera as with the current one (997). Zuffenhausen will be determining the basic architecture for VW's line of sports cars and large sedans in the future. And what about Audi? They see 'trench warfare' about to ensue.
Beneath the photo:
The more sharply edged, stronger 911 shows the sharpest changes since the premier of the waterboxers. The flares have swelled another 60mm wider, featuring an entirely new rear suspension. The S-model will get larger brakes. From the wheel, Porsche fans will get a more exacting feel--with electromechanical steering.
Recently, I had the opportunity to see the start of these cars next to the latest--the growth is incredible.
12-19-2010, 04:29 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
+1 and if so the 997 is likely my last 911. The BIGGER part is what really kills the deal for me. I've seen 997's next to 911's from 80's and 90's and it's stunning how porky the car has become. The older ones no longer look normal to me, they look more "cute". /sigh