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Lol, clearly you haven't driven a GT3 with bucket style seats...whether on the track or on the road you are much more connected and in tune with the car vs sloshing around in sofa seats.
Lol, clearly you haven't driven a GT3 with bucket style seats...whether on the track or on the road you are much more connected and in tune with the car vs sloshing around in sofa seats.
Couldn't agree more, I move around way too much in the sofa seats really looking forward to my RS if for nothing else the Buckets baby! Gotta get them Buckets!
All the F cars I've seen haven't demonstrated the ability to run anti sub pass throughs, which is why I think the Porsche seats are very unique and highly sought after.
But LWB's to be effective for track work need to fit right. It may be that the 6 point harness addresses that. That said, since 95% of the car use is off track one must weigh the benefits of spending thousands more for very limited use.
You make it seem like the seats don't fit the vast majority of people, but they actually do. That being said, they are NOT for everyone. Some people have back issues, need lumbar support, and don't want to simply put a small pillow behind them like my buddy does. LOL
Is it your belief that you are faster in LWB compared to 18 way sport seats? Also, consider this. Porsche builds a track sport car and equips it with 4 or 18 way seats. Why would they do that if they felt they were inadequate for track work?
Nope. The LWB do NOT make me faster. However, they allow me to run a roll cage and harnesses, which makes it SAFER. How much is that worth? Also, the harness and bolstering make it more comfortable during track runs. It's got nothing to do with making you faster. Before I had the harnesses installed, I was at a track day running my spyder with harness and then jumped back in the the GT3 with 3 points and I suddenly had to really use my legs to hold myself in position. When you're all done, you tuck the harnesses away and drive home with 3 points comfortably with an OEM safety system. There's nothing else like it out there. You've got it all wrong. Porsche built a car with sofa seat option because not everyone tracks their car heavily, often, or even at all. IIRC, you are someone that doesn't really use the car for the track. There are many different uses for the car, not just the track. So, they made other seat options. The 4/18 way seats are adequate, but not ideal. There's a difference.
From a vanity standpoint, you are correct, the buckets look much better.
All the F cars I've seen haven't demonstrated the ability to run anti sub pass throughs, which is why I think the Porsche seats are very unique and highly sought after.
You make it seem like the seats don't fit the vast majority of people, but they actually do. That being said, they are NOT for everyone. Some people have back issues, need lumbar support, and don't want to simply put a small pillow behind them like my buddy does. LOL
Nope. The LWB do NOT make me faster. However, they allow me to run a roll cage and harnesses, which makes it SAFER. How much is that worth? Also, the harness and bolstering make it more comfortable during track runs. It's got nothing to do with making you faster. Before I had the harnesses installed, I was at a track day running my spyder with harness and then jumped back in the the GT3 with 3 points and I suddenly had to really use my legs to hold myself in position. When you're all done, you tuck the harnesses away and drive home with 3 points comfortably with an OEM safety system. There's nothing else like it out there. You've got it all wrong. Porsche built a car with sofa seat option because not everyone tracks their car heavily, often, or even at all. IIRC, you are someone that doesn't really use the car for the track. There are many different uses for the car, not just the track. So, they made other seat options. The 4/18 way seats are adequate, but not ideal. There's a difference.
From a vanity standpoint, you are correct, the buckets look much better.
This theory fits with some thoughts I've been having about the sport car market splitting and going bimodal.
We've been told that Porsche was surprised by the demand for the GT4. On some level you can understand why: statistics tell them that manual cars are not selling well and the Cayman is also struggling. One can extrapolate that a manual only Cayman will sell poorly- if the market is a bell curve it's very far from the center.
But the market isn't a bell curve. There's a large group that wants comfort, drivers assistance, size, etc. Make these cars a bit harder and less friendly and sales will fall off... But make them hard enough and suddenly you find another market- the market that wants race buckets and six points. We generally don't buy off the lot because we don't like the "bell curve" spec, but give us what we want and you'll find that there are quite a lot of us. Far more than Porsche expected, apparently...
Originally Posted by GreenLantern
Also an astute assessment, Pete!
Oddly, though, I'd have expected Porsche to do a better job at expecting this (i.e., exactly what you said).
Eduardo's assesment is accurate and Pete's comment afterwards is also accurate. I think the real issue is the fact that most US Dealers are very disconnected from the "enthusiast" market and they led Porsche down the path of misjudging the demand for these seats.
Example: When I was looking for a Spyder allocation I struggled because dealers were trading away as quickly as they received them in favor of the mainstream car. Had they held on to them long enough they would have realized there's demand for them and sales would come easy. I told this to my local dealer and he listened. He managed two allocations after I had already bought my car and I helped him connect with buyers, one in New Jersey and another in California. Those allocations were gone within a couple of weeks, both MT and LWB's.
Dealers need an enthusiast sales person working for them, attending track events and getting connected with this market. They are completely missing the boat.
Eduardo's assesment is accurate and Pete's comment afterwards is also accurate. I think the real issue is the fact that most US Dealers are very disconnected from the "enthusiast" market and they led Porsche down the path of misjudging the demand for these seats.
Example: When I was looking for a Spyder allocation I struggled because dealers were trading away as quickly as they received them in favor of the mainstream car. Had they held on to them long enough they would have realized there's demand for them and sales would come easy. I told this to my local dealer and he listened. He managed two allocations after I had already bought my car and I helped him connect with buyers, one in New Jersey and another in California. Those allocations were gone within a couple of weeks, both MT and LWB's.
Dealers need an enthusiast sales person working for them, attending track events and getting connected with this market. They are completely missing the boat.
Unfortunately U.S. dealers have nothing to do with LWB problem regardless of disconnect with "enthusiast" and even PCNA has no part in it as PCNA is simply a distributor of Porsche cars in North America (controlling the allocations, N.A. support and marketing of Porsche vehicles) and has little input on vehicle model content offered other than product advisory participation a couple times a year and those recommendations and requests are only taken into consideration at PAG. I can tell you that if you speak with many dealers in U.S. you will find much frustration from both U.S. dealers (on behalf of customers) and PCNA about not having much done with regards to input provided by them both to home office in Germany. Ultimately PAG controls models, content, option availability and manufacturing and this entire debachery falls solely on lap of PAG. Of course I believe (being a full blooded stubborn German myself) that this has to do with some super stubborn German in a PAG office somewhere that continues to believe that the supply problem will eventually fix itself so why stop the availability?
Unfortunately U.S. dealers have nothing to do with LWB problem regardless of disconnect with "enthusiast" and even PCNA has no part in it as PCNA is simply a distributor of Porsche cars in North America (controlling the allocations, N.A. support and marketing of Porsche vehicles) and has little input on vehicle model content offered other than product advisory participation a couple times a year and those recommendations and requests are only taken into consideration at PAG. I can tell you that if you speak with many dealers in U.S. you will find much frustration from both U.S. dealers (on behalf of customers) and PCNA about not having much done with regards to input provided by them both to home office in Germany. Ultimately PAG controls models, content, option availability and manufacturing and this entire debachery falls solely on lap of PAG. Of course I believe (being a full blooded stubborn German myself) that this has to do with some super stubborn German in a PAG office somewhere that continues to believe that the supply problem will eventually fix itself so why stop the availability?
sccchiii, I normally agree with you...but I think you are minimizing the influence that both US dealers and PCNA have on the 'LWB' story. And it's not just what Afshin, Peter or me are saying it. There is a long history of US dealer strong pushback on the 'sport bucket seats'. It all dates back to the MY2009 .2 997 Carrera 4S specced by PAG in 'Meteor Grey' with the new (then) gt2-type sport buckets and sent to just about every dealer in America:
If you need to know more about this spec, I'll let my friend Dale at Byers do the talking:
To make long story short, dealers got stuck with these expensive C4S and blamed...the sport buckets for their inability to sell them. Even when 'trunk money' from PCNA was dumped on them, dealers still found it a hard sell! From that point on, most dealers 'feared' the sport buckets as the 'kiss of death' and refused to spec any car with them...unless an enthusiast insisted in ordering them! Back then, in leaner economic times, quite a number of dealers didn't have buyers at first for their gt3, gt3 RS, 987 Spyders and Cayman R allocations. So when they specced them for stock inventory, they never ordered the sport buckets...even on these most 'sport-track' oriented of all Porsche models!
As you well know, PCNA is in the business of being the intermediary between PAG & their dealers in the US. PCNA's executives travel back & forth between Stuttgart and Atlanta often. Detlev von Platen, when I saw him at the Meridien Hotel we were also staying in Stuttgart in April of 2013, told me that he was there in Germany almost every month! You would be surprised how much input PCNA has on PAG product planning, etc. So not for one minute I believe that PCNA 'has little input on vehicle model content offered other than product advisory participation a couple times a year and those recommendations and requests are only taken into consideration at PAG.'
I am almost certain that PAG underestimated 'take rate' for the new 'LWB' seats because PCNA did not fully realized, or properly evaluate, the demand for these sport buckets among their targeted audience in the US. And they were getting no positive input from their US dealers re: LWBs since they were predisposed against these bucket seats from their prior experiences with them in the first place! There might be additional mistakes made by PAG in their dealing with Lear that also led to the 'LWB[ shortage, but we should not let PCNA off the hook! This 'debacle' (rather than your 'debachery' or 'debauchery' ) does rest, in grand part, at the feet of PCNA.
And it's not the only one they have helped create. There was the PTS 'disaster' in MY2015. In that debacle, PAG claimed it was overwhelmed with unanticipated orders for PTS & suspended PTS until just recently! That was another 'shortage' that PCNA should have avoided. We at Rennlist have been leading the way in explaining the unusual options available to customers via 'Porsche Exclusive'. And a lot of emphasis & attention has been directed at PTS by me and others. Was Sascha Glaeser who managed 'Porsche Exclusive' at that time for PCNA unaware of the growing interest in this important option? Didn't Melissa Witek or Matthew Henry, who were in the front lines in contact with customers all over the US, sensed the shift and increased interest is PTS? I don't believe they were caught unaware. It's just poor planning and management. And it started with PCNA right here in the United States! It doesn't mean that the Germans at headquarters are totally free from responsibility in these 'f*** ups' and should be better listeners. You are German and understand the 'stubbornness' of your culture. But there is plenty of blame to go around here with PCNA! To paraphrase Brendan Sullivan (of Iran-Contra fame), these PCNA managers are not all potted plants!
^^^i agree..PCNA should harbour the majority of the blame. No wonder their bespoke car allocation process is screwed up too.
In ten years I bought five Ferrari's. Each time I seriously considered their LWB's (they are fitted) which were about a $7500 option. Each time my salesperson talked me out of them claiming they would hurt resale. Recently, my dealer had a GT3 with LWB on the floor. The person who ordered the car refused to take it after sitting in them.
To be honest, had the LWB's been available when I ordered my GT3 I probably would have ordered them. I love the way they look and they seemed perfectly suited for a car like the GT3. However, after sitting in them there is no way I would have ordered them. Maybe I am just too old.
sccchiii, I normally agree with you...but I think you are minimizing the influence that both US dealers and PCNA have on the 'LWB' story. And it's not just what Afshin, Peter or me are saying it. There is a long history of US dealer strong pushback on the 'sport bucket seats'. It all dates back to the MY2009 .2 997 Carrera 4S specced by PAG in 'Meteor Grey' with the new (then) gt2-type sport buckets and sent to just about every dealer in America:
To make long story short, dealers got stuck with these expensive C4S and blamed...the sport buckets for their inability to sell them. Even when 'trunk money' from PCNA was dumped on them, dealers still found it a hard sell! From that point on, most dealers 'feared' the sport buckets as the 'kiss of death' and refused to spec any car with them...unless an enthusiast insisted in ordering them! Back then, in leaner economic times, quite a number of dealers didn't have buyers at first for their gt3, gt3 RS, 987 Spyders and Cayman R allocations. So when they specced them for stock inventory, they never ordered the sport buckets...even on these most 'sport-track' oriented of all Porsche models!
As you well know, PCNA is in the business of being the intermediary between PAG & their dealers in the US. PCNA's executives travel back & forth between Stuttgart and Atlanta often. Detlev von Platen, when I saw him at the Meridien Hotel we were also staying in Stuttgart in April of 2013, told me that he was there in Germany almost every month! You would be surprised how much input PCNA has on PAG product planning, etc. So not for one minute I believe that PCNA 'has little input on vehicle model content offered other than product advisory participation a couple times a year and those recommendations and requests are only taken into consideration at PAG.'
I am almost certain that PAG underestimated 'take rate' for the new 'LWB' seats because PCNA did not fully realized, or properly evaluate, the demand for these sport buckets among their targeted audience in the US. And they were getting no positive input from their US dealers re: LWBs since they were predisposed against these bucket seats from their prior experiences with them in the first place! There might be additional mistakes made by PAG in their dealing with Lear that also led to the 'LWB[ shortage, but we should not let PCNA off the hook! This 'debacle' (rather than your 'debachery' or 'debauchery' ) does rest, in grand part, at the feet of PCNA.
And it's not the only one they have helped create. There was the PTS 'disaster' in MY2015. In that debacle, PAG claimed it was overwhelmed with unanticipated orders for PTS & suspended PTS until just recently! That was another 'shortage' that PCNA should have avoided. We at Rennlist have been leading the way in explaining the unusual options available to customers via 'Porsche Exclusive'. And a lot of emphasis & attention has been directed at PTS by me and others. Was Sascha Glaeser who managed 'Porsche Exclusive' at that time for PCNA unaware of the growing interest in this important option? Didn't Melissa Witek or Matthew Henry, who were in the front lines in contact with customers all over the US, sensed the shift and increased interest is PTS? I don't believe they were caught unaware. It's just poor planning and management. And it started with PCNA right here in the United States! It doesn't mean that the Germans at headquarters are totally free from responsibility in these 'f*** ups' and should be better listeners. You are German and understand the 'stubbornness' of your culture. But there is plenty of blame to go around here with PCNA! To paraphrase Brendan Sullivan (of Iran-Contra fame), these PCNA managers are not all potted plants!
Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel
Eduardo, as always you make very valid points but we will agree to disagree on the level of influence that PCNA has at end of day, they certainly DON'T have zero influence but again I don't see them as a "intermediary", I see them as a separate company that simply is put in place to find homes for cars/suvs that mother Germany produces for N.A.
The history you bring up in this last post I view from a whole different paradigm than yours. The original C4S GT2 seat issue that you reference I think validates my point......PAG controls what comes to dealers, and sometimes that is basically forced. PAG knew they had committed to buy far to many GT2 buckets from suppliers and basically pushed them on US (when they weren't ordered as part of specced customer cars) despite very early warnings to PAG from PCNA that the turn rates (I know Eduardo knows this but those that don't its the number of days until sold a car sits in dealers inventory) on GT2 seat equipped C4S cars were very slow vs non sport bucket C4S cars (at that time). Turn rates and velocity rates for inventory have been tracked for a very long time by PAG but before the late 2000s it was a slower metric of information and data was trailing behind actual results by a longer than ideal time. Those early warnings and feedback about the C4S situation from PCNA fell on deaf ears at PAG (until they finally agreed to incentive money) and the cars continued to come because they had no choice as they had a lot of production on the sport bucket seats and needed to dump them to dealer's lots. The poor turn rate feedback from PCNA (and dealers) did result in cash incentives for dealers to help get the C4S cars equipped with GT2 seats sold. The systems and networks that PAG uses now are quite different than even as recently as 2007. PAG is getting REAL TIME DATA and updates from the PCNA dealer portal to communicate better to it's own suppliers on orders and commitments for the next quarter of production. They now can make very quick (or quicker than in past) shifts in potential supply (except when constraints are reached by suppliers).
I'm not sure that the trips Deltev takes to Germany are relevant because he regularly travels (and has traveled) to Germany because U.S. market has been and continues to be a very large make up of global sales for Porsche despite other markets coming on very strongly lately. You can only imagine that the board wants regular updates from one of there bigger markets. I can tell you from a very good source that distant topics like LWBs and PTS are not brought up or discussed very often when he visits. His visits are very heavy with macro analysis and yearly sales pace discussions with board and of course many dinners.
PCNA has been begging PAG since last year for more LWBs (the reverse of 2009 C4S situation) and been told by PAG that they are 'working on it' and this is same messages that continues today. PAG COULD HAVE STOPPED the available ordering of LWBs by a simple memo to PCNA saying that constraints have been reached and no more orders will be accepted but that has not happened. PCNA in my opinion is being told continually by PAG in the 11th hour that delays exist for LWBs (much later than they should)....that is conveyed to dealers and they all assume after the dictated number of weeks worth of delays that supply has corrected itself or production has increased only to be told of delays again by PAG and meanwhile customers are still ordering LWBs only to be told again and again by dealer that they are delayed again (if they know at all...many find out by checking order status for customers). PCNA is only as good as what PAG is communicating to them about availability and I am told that communication is driving personnel crazy at PCNA because the dealers are not happy (and that means customers are not happy with dealers). The same has happened on PTS orders....for all of us we blame dealers/PCNA when ultimately the communication or lack thereof is coming from PAG (they must deliver memos by bottle dropped in sea)????. I reached out several times to contacts at PCNA only to be more confused than before about PTS (at certain times Eduardo along with many on RL suspected or were told info about PTS end that many at PCNA that should have known about but weren't told yet). PAG sent many misleading and confusing memos out to PCNA and those were not translated very well to dealers and much misinformation came about and many dealers gave varying info to customers when PTS was shut off. To sum up I am not defending PCNA or dealers at all but this LWB/PTS ordeal could have and should have been communicated much clearer and much earlier by PAG and as a result it would have been a smoother ordering experience for many instead of hoping and praying for a option that appeared in configurator (or maybe not because the fact is that some cant get what they ultimately want but that also falls on PAG)!. Thanks for listening for those of you that haven't fallen asleep reading this rant.......and of course once again no great pics to frame out my points per Eduardo's advice??????? Just send me your picture library Eduardo as I'm to lazy to look for the perfect photos?
In ten years I bought five Ferrari's. Each time I seriously considered their LWB's (they are fitted) which were about a $7500 option. Each time my salesperson talked me out of them claiming they would hurt resale. Recently, my dealer had a GT3 with LWB on the floor. The person who ordered the car refused to take it after sitting in them.
To be honest, had the LWB's been available when I ordered my GT3 I probably would have ordered them. I love the way they look and they seemed perfectly suited for a car like the GT3. However, after sitting in them there is no way I would have ordered them. Maybe I am just too old.
Many have well established negative opinions on LWBs and would not buy a GT3 with them...understandable and despite all of us LWB lovers out there we know they aren't for everyone so you have the freedom of choice and to each there own and I completely respect the position. However....the reason Eduardo started this thread isn't because they AREN'T popular at this point?
In ten years I bought five Ferrari's. Each time I seriously considered their LWB's (they are fitted) which were about a $7500 option. Each time my salesperson talked me out of them claiming they would hurt resale. Recently, my dealer had a GT3 with LWB on the floor. The person who ordered the car refused to take it after sitting in them.
To be honest, had the LWB's been available when I ordered my GT3 I probably would have ordered them. I love the way they look and they seemed perfectly suited for a car like the GT3. However, after sitting in them there is no way I would have ordered them. Maybe I am just too old.
Buckets are popular here on RL, but they are not for everyone. And the level of passion for buckets here is likely not representative of the general GT3 buyer population. They look cool and clearly make good sense for enthusiasts who track a lot.
I'm so glad I got a GT3 with LWB seats, I don't track the car and don't plan on tracking it other than a few occasional hot laps a few times a year. I love the look and comfort of LWB seats.
I'm so glad I got a GT3 with LWB seats, I don't track the car and don't plan on tracking it other than a few occasional hot laps a few times a year. I love the look and comfort of LWB seats.
Do you find them more comfortable than the sport seats? I like the buckets quite a bit and *currently* have them specced on my 2016, but I cannot say I find them as comfortable as the sport seats.
05-29-2015, 07:38 PM
) does rest, in grand part, at the feet of PCNA. 
That was another 'shortage' that PCNA should have avoided. We at Rennlist have been leading the way in explaining the unusual options available to customers via 'Porsche Exclusive'. And a lot of emphasis & attention has been directed at PTS by me and others. Was Sascha Glaeser who managed 'Porsche Exclusive' at that time for PCNA unaware of the growing interest in this important option? Didn't Melissa Witek or Matthew Henry, who were in the front lines in contact with customers all over the US, sensed the shift and increased interest is PTS? I don't believe they were caught unaware. It's just poor planning and management. And it started with PCNA right here in the United States! It doesn't mean that the Germans at headquarters are totally free from responsibility in these 'f*** ups' and should be better listeners. You are German and understand the 'stubbornness' of your culture. But there is plenty of blame to go around here with PCNA! To paraphrase Brendan Sullivan (of Iran-Contra fame), these PCNA managers are not all potted plants! 
