Why the Shortage of LWB Seats - A Tragedy worthy of play by William Shakespeare?
05-28-2015, 02:10 PM
#19
Three Wheelin'
As always Eduardo is the master at putting threads and posts together....perhaps you can teach us goof ***** that can barely post pics a class called: "The Art and Magic to posting on the RL forum by Eduardo *no experience required but as a qualifier you must salute to Signal Green GT3s.
Just a few comments about the topic:
1) I know it was posted here that Preuninger said the 918 LWBs are different from the GT3/GT4/RS LWBs.... while technically true I don't think the CRP one piece seat is molded at a different rake angle at all. I think the seat is angled differently with the use of different side brackets that mount and secure to sliding bottom bracket in 918 because we know at the very least that one sliding bracket on passenger side is completely different as it has no motor. I think the actual mold for one piece seat is shared between all LWB seats (with the different brackets for position angle and obviously different cushions on 918). I could be wrong but again I am told that they are the same part at LEAR.
2) Yes I agree that Porsche has underestimated demand for LWBs but there is more at play than that single fact (again as Eduardo suggested as a possiblitly). LEAR has not been able to go into "thrust" production (as told to Porsche when commitments were made and while even at thrust production levels they still might not be able to hit order demand from Porsche currently) because I am told of quality problems that creep in with speeding up CRP one piece seat production. The only way that more can be added is to add additional manufacturing lines and/or facilities and that is not an overnight fix.
3) Porsche didn't just get hit with demand...since after first month of LWB GT3 production, LWBs have been delayed off and on since end of last year. It did not take a german scientist to anticipate that with upcoming RS release and when GT4 was announced that if LWBs were offered on GT4 the demand would be high and the result would be a high number of delays in orders based on the demand that happened for LWB GT3s when announced? The possible solution was as many have said at factory to have released GT4 with sofas first (or last depending on how RS production affects LWB availability) then phase in LWB as an available option later (or earlier then terminate by a specific order date) when availability was caught up.
Just my 2 cents...and thanks again Eduardo for the awesome history and notice I need art and magic to my posts as I haven't taken your class...YET!?
Just a few comments about the topic:
1) I know it was posted here that Preuninger said the 918 LWBs are different from the GT3/GT4/RS LWBs.... while technically true I don't think the CRP one piece seat is molded at a different rake angle at all. I think the seat is angled differently with the use of different side brackets that mount and secure to sliding bottom bracket in 918 because we know at the very least that one sliding bracket on passenger side is completely different as it has no motor. I think the actual mold for one piece seat is shared between all LWB seats (with the different brackets for position angle and obviously different cushions on 918). I could be wrong but again I am told that they are the same part at LEAR.
2) Yes I agree that Porsche has underestimated demand for LWBs but there is more at play than that single fact (again as Eduardo suggested as a possiblitly). LEAR has not been able to go into "thrust" production (as told to Porsche when commitments were made and while even at thrust production levels they still might not be able to hit order demand from Porsche currently) because I am told of quality problems that creep in with speeding up CRP one piece seat production. The only way that more can be added is to add additional manufacturing lines and/or facilities and that is not an overnight fix.
3) Porsche didn't just get hit with demand...since after first month of LWB GT3 production, LWBs have been delayed off and on since end of last year. It did not take a german scientist to anticipate that with upcoming RS release and when GT4 was announced that if LWBs were offered on GT4 the demand would be high and the result would be a high number of delays in orders based on the demand that happened for LWB GT3s when announced? The possible solution was as many have said at factory to have released GT4 with sofas first (or last depending on how RS production affects LWB availability) then phase in LWB as an available option later (or earlier then terminate by a specific order date) when availability was caught up.
Just my 2 cents...and thanks again Eduardo for the awesome history and notice I need art and magic to my posts as I haven't taken your class...YET!?
05-28-2015, 02:37 PM
#20
Nordschleife Master
This theory fits with some thoughts I've been having about the sport car market splitting and going bimodal.
We've been told that Porsche was surprised by the demand for the GT4. On some level you can understand why: statistics tell them that manual cars are not selling well and the Cayman is also struggling. One can extrapolate that a manual only Cayman will sell poorly- if the market is a bell curve it's very far from the center.
But the market isn't a bell curve. There's a large group that wants comfort, drivers assistance, size, etc. Make these cars a bit harder and less friendly and sales will fall off... But make them hard enough and suddenly you find another market- the market that wants race buckets and six points. We generally don't buy off the lot because we don't like the "bell curve" spec, but give us what we want and you'll find that there are quite a lot of us. Far more than Porsche expected, apparently...
We've been told that Porsche was surprised by the demand for the GT4. On some level you can understand why: statistics tell them that manual cars are not selling well and the Cayman is also struggling. One can extrapolate that a manual only Cayman will sell poorly- if the market is a bell curve it's very far from the center.
But the market isn't a bell curve. There's a large group that wants comfort, drivers assistance, size, etc. Make these cars a bit harder and less friendly and sales will fall off... But make them hard enough and suddenly you find another market- the market that wants race buckets and six points. We generally don't buy off the lot because we don't like the "bell curve" spec, but give us what we want and you'll find that there are quite a lot of us. Far more than Porsche expected, apparently...
05-28-2015, 02:58 PM
#22
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
As always Eduardo is the master at putting threads and posts together....perhaps you can teach us goof ***** that can barely post pics a class called: "The Art and Magic to posting on the RL forum by Eduardo *no experience required but as a qualifier you must salute to Signal Green GT3s...and thanks again Eduardo for the awesome history and notice I need art or magic to my posts as I haven't taken your class...YET!?
*************
By the way, here is a quick lesson on how to get readership up on any of your post via 'Art & Magic'. You start with a photo that draws the audience to the topic you have chosen to talk about. This piques their interest and then you can proceed to the more technical details of these LWB seats, brackets, rake angle...and, in particular, the rather suggestive 'thrust production'!
Just a few comments about the topic:
1) I know it was posted here that Preuninger said the 918 LWBs are different from the GT3/GT4/RS LWBs.... while technically true I don't think the CRP one piece seat is molded at a different rake angle at all. I think the seat is angled differently with the use of different side brackets that mount and secure to sliding bottom bracket in 918 because we know at the very least that one sliding bracket on passenger side is completely different as it has no motor. I think the actual mold for one piece seat is shared between all LWB seats (with the different brackets for position angle and obviously different cushions on 918). I could be wrong but again I am told that they are the same part at LEAR.
2) Yes I agree that Porsche has underestimated demand for LWBs but there is more at play than that single fact (again as Eduardo suggested as a possiblitly). LEAR has not been able to go into "thrust" production (as told to Porsche when commitments were made and while even at thrust production levels they still might not be able to hit order demand from Porsche currently) because I am told of quality problems that creep in with speeding up CRP one piece seat production. The only way that more can be added is to add additional manufacturing lines and/or facilities and that is not an overnight fix.
3) Porsche didn't just get hit with demand...since after first month of LWB GT3 production, LWBs have been delayed off and on since end of last year. It did not take a german scientist to anticipate that with upcoming RS release and when GT4 was announced that if LWBs were offered on GT4 the demand would be high and the result would be a high number of delays in orders based on the demand that happened for LWB GT3s when announced? The possible solution was as many have said at factory to have released GT4 with sofas first (or last depending on how RS production affects LWB availability) then phase in LWB as an available option later (or earlier then terminate by a specific order date) when availability was caught up.
http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/91...comfort/seats/
Just keep practicing 'sccchiii'...you'll get the hang of this 'posting science' in no time!
Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel
05-28-2015, 06:51 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
The whole debacle is inexcusable.
Maybe I am wound up because it was made official today that VAG is going the same direction with Lamborghini as they have with Porsche. One thing is for sure: If the company still relied on sports car enthusiasts to stay solvent, you can bet they would have paid more attention to one of the single most expensive options on their halo cars.
First the delayed introduction of LWBs on the GT3 - if not for the engine debacle there may have only been a dozen GT3s with LWBs - and now delayed introduction on the GT4, perhaps not available at all on the lightest cars they make, etc. Not to mention those that were expecting to buy them from their parts department, or hoping to order them on other models (as you could with the GT2 seats on the 987/997).
And I still think they are the wrong seats. Yes, they look cool. But IMO they should have certified the GT2 folding buckets for the U.S. market 981/991; the non-folding LWBs should be for the 918 and Club Sport optioned cars, where access behind the seats is less important. But I'll bet we got the LWBs in a profit-maximizing move so they wouldn't have to certify both the LWBs for the 918, and also the GT2 seats for the other sports cars. Just as they maximized profit by only offering one transmission in the GT3, GT3RS, GT4, and Spyder.
They are proudly breaking records in a booming economy, yet leaving what used to be their core market not knowing if or when they will get a car, and if they do, what options it will have, or what color it will be. Anybody still believe they sell SUVs in order to make the sports cars their core group of enthusiasts want?
Maybe I am wound up because it was made official today that VAG is going the same direction with Lamborghini as they have with Porsche. One thing is for sure: If the company still relied on sports car enthusiasts to stay solvent, you can bet they would have paid more attention to one of the single most expensive options on their halo cars.
First the delayed introduction of LWBs on the GT3 - if not for the engine debacle there may have only been a dozen GT3s with LWBs - and now delayed introduction on the GT4, perhaps not available at all on the lightest cars they make, etc. Not to mention those that were expecting to buy them from their parts department, or hoping to order them on other models (as you could with the GT2 seats on the 987/997).
And I still think they are the wrong seats. Yes, they look cool. But IMO they should have certified the GT2 folding buckets for the U.S. market 981/991; the non-folding LWBs should be for the 918 and Club Sport optioned cars, where access behind the seats is less important. But I'll bet we got the LWBs in a profit-maximizing move so they wouldn't have to certify both the LWBs for the 918, and also the GT2 seats for the other sports cars. Just as they maximized profit by only offering one transmission in the GT3, GT3RS, GT4, and Spyder.
They are proudly breaking records in a booming economy, yet leaving what used to be their core market not knowing if or when they will get a car, and if they do, what options it will have, or what color it will be. Anybody still believe they sell SUVs in order to make the sports cars their core group of enthusiasts want?
05-28-2015, 07:05 PM
#26
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
If PAG offered the folding GT2 or 997 RS.2 seats and no delay, I'd take them!
05-28-2015, 07:37 PM
#29
Nordschleife Master
Yes, it will bolt right in. Even the wiring harnesses will plug in. The only problem is the seat occupancy detector on the passenger side isn't compatible with the 991 and will trigger a light.
05-28-2015, 08:32 PM
#30
Three Wheelin'
It would be very interesting to dig into how the demographics of GT3 buyers may have changed over the years since their introduction. I would surmise that the take rate of cars with LWBS may somehow reflects a change in demographics as well as the fact that these are being ordered by "enthusiasts." The most recent models have coincided with a booming stock market and I would believe that has materially affected the take rate not just for the cars themselves but for the options associated with them. In any event someone dropped the ball.