Compensation
04-12-2014, 05:56 PM
#841
Christian, I'm not sure it's that simple. The owner with a loan is paying for two things; the privilege of using someone else's money AND the product that he/she purchased. Porsche's stop drive has reduced the usefulness of both of those payments to the owner. The utility that Porsche promised to provide in return for the price of the car, is no longer there while it sits. The owner is making payments based on a schedule that assumes that the car has a certain value and will be available to drive during the payment period. Due to Porsche's negligence, right now the owner obligation is being fulfilled and Porsche's isn't. Seems to me Porsche owes the buyer something on both parts of the loan. I'm neither a lawyer nor an accountant; I'm just trying to think this through as to what is fair. I realize fairness is not always a prime component of either the law or business. 
04-12-2014, 07:19 PM
#842
Originally Posted by Mike in CA
Christian, I'm not sure it's that simple. The owner with a loan is paying for two things; the privilege of using someone else's money AND the product that he/she purchased. Porsche's stop drive has reduced the usefulness of both of those payments to the owner. The utility that Porsche promised to provide in return for the price of the car, is no longer there while it sits. The owner is making payments based on a schedule that assumes that the car has a certain value and will be available to drive during the payment period. Due to Porsche's negligence, right now the owner obligation is being fulfilled and Porsche's isn't. Seems to me Porsche owes the buyer something on both parts of the loan. I'm neither a lawyer nor an accountant; I'm just trying to think this through as to what is fair. I realize fairness is not always a prime component of either the law or business.
Christian, I'm not sure it's that simple. The owner with a loan is paying for two things; the privilege of using someone else's money AND the product that he/she purchased. Porsche's stop drive has reduced the usefulness of both of those payments to the owner. The utility that Porsche promised to provide in return for the price of the car, is no longer there while it sits. The owner is making payments based on a schedule that assumes that the car has a certain value and will be available to drive during the payment period. Due to Porsche's negligence, right now the owner obligation is being fulfilled and Porsche's isn't. Seems to me Porsche owes the buyer something on both parts of the loan. I'm neither a lawyer nor an accountant; I'm just trying to think this through as to what is fair. I realize fairness is not always a prime component of either the law or business.
04-12-2014, 07:33 PM
#843
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Very well constructed Mike. We need your input on the Action Group Letter. Yourself and Sierra Mike are capable of good reasoned cognitive and skilled at laying out things in simple logical manner. Logic and facts laid out in a well formed narrative will make it very difficult for anyone of sound reason and above average intellect to argue to the contrary....
04-13-2014, 02:09 AM
#844
Instructor
Christian, I'm not sure it's that simple. The owner with a loan is paying for two things; the privilege of using someone else's money AND the product that he/she purchased. Porsche's stop drive has reduced the usefulness of both of those payments to the owner. The utility that Porsche promised to provide in return for the price of the car, is no longer there while it sits. The owner is making payments based on a schedule that assumes that the car has a certain value and will be available to drive during the payment period. Due to Porsche's negligence, right now the owner obligation is being fulfilled and Porsche's isn't. Seems to me Porsche owes the buyer something on both parts of the loan.
I'm neither a lawyer nor an accountant; I'm just trying to think this through as to what is fair. I realize fairness is not always a prime component of either the law or business.
I'm neither a lawyer nor an accountant; I'm just trying to think this through as to what is fair. I realize fairness is not always a prime component of either the law or business.
Now, if you borrowed the money, you have to pay for the privilege of using someone else's money as you aptly put it. You do that by paying them interest. That is the sole cost to you of borrowing that money. If you paid for it out of your own account, you have a very similar cost which is the interest (or return) you could have earned. That is the sole economic cost to those guys. More broadly that is the opportunity cost of what else you could have done with that money. (Of course you could also have bought a MP4-12C, but economists would ascribe your cost as the lost interest.)
It doesn't really matter who finances the car. The cost of financing should still be considered the same (or very nearly the same).
Of course reimbursement of this cost of financing, should be separate and different from the cost of loss of use and potential extra depreciation which is what the $2k/mo. and extra warranty is supposed to take care of in Porsche's offer. The cost of financing (and possibly insurance and registration) should be in addition to that.
Just my opinion. Doesn't count for much since I don't have a new GT3 on order, but I hope it may help with some form of clarity for some.
Best,
-Christian
04-13-2014, 03:25 AM
#845
Race Director
If you want to be precise, Porsche should not cover your entire loan payment. They should only cover the interest portion, but not the principal. In other words they should cover your cost of capital for the no-drive period. For those who borrowed/leased they should cover your interest you would otherwise have to pay. For those who paid cash (or put a deposit), they should reimburse you for lost interest earned.
That's the only way to make it equal for everyone.
Just my two cents.
-Christian
That's the only way to make it equal for everyone.
Just my two cents.
-Christian
I think I understand what you are getting at, but I humbly submit that whether you borrowed the money or took it out of your own account, you have in both cases paid for the product to be purchased. In either case the dealer received their full amount. If you borrowed, the dealer got that money from Porsche Credit or Bank of America or your local credit union. In the other case they got it directly from you. Either way you have paid for the product.
Now, if you borrowed the money, you have to pay for the privilege of using someone else's money as you aptly put it. You do that by paying them interest. That is the sole cost to you of borrowing that money. If you paid for it out of your own account, you have a very similar cost which is the interest (or return) you could have earned. That is the sole economic cost to those guys. More broadly that is the opportunity cost of what else you could have done with that money. (Of course you could also have bought a MP4-12C, but economists would ascribe your cost as the lost interest.)
It doesn't really matter who finances the car. The cost of financing should still be considered the same (or very nearly the same).
Of course reimbursement of this cost of financing, should be separate and different from the cost of loss of use and potential extra depreciation which is what the $2k/mo. and extra warranty is supposed to take care of in Porsche's offer. The cost of financing (and possibly insurance and registration) should be in addition to that.
Just my opinion. Doesn't count for much since I don't have a new GT3 on order, but I hope it may help with some form of clarity for some.
Best,
-Christian
Now, if you borrowed the money, you have to pay for the privilege of using someone else's money as you aptly put it. You do that by paying them interest. That is the sole cost to you of borrowing that money. If you paid for it out of your own account, you have a very similar cost which is the interest (or return) you could have earned. That is the sole economic cost to those guys. More broadly that is the opportunity cost of what else you could have done with that money. (Of course you could also have bought a MP4-12C, but economists would ascribe your cost as the lost interest.)
It doesn't really matter who finances the car. The cost of financing should still be considered the same (or very nearly the same).
Of course reimbursement of this cost of financing, should be separate and different from the cost of loss of use and potential extra depreciation which is what the $2k/mo. and extra warranty is supposed to take care of in Porsche's offer. The cost of financing (and possibly insurance and registration) should be in addition to that.
Just my opinion. Doesn't count for much since I don't have a new GT3 on order, but I hope it may help with some form of clarity for some.
Best,
-Christian
Cheers.
04-13-2014, 08:02 AM
#846
Just managed to read the latest posts again after traveling, but I'm progressively more shocked about the different and illogical packages offered.
- Our package in the UAE is a lot better than yours in the USA, even though the car's price is the same.
- The cash compensation for the US clients is the same regardless whether your car is at the factory, in the port or delivered (and paid for). That's utterly illogical.
- The same for the additional warranty. No disrespect to people who don't have car yet, but only for the people who got their cars delivered, the clock is ticking already. So the 12 months to them is effectively somewhere between 6 and 8. Which is illogical once again.
- On top of that, I seem to be the only one so far (at least who's posted it) who managed to get 2 years additional warranty as a result of this stop-drive.
There would have been 1 proper way of finalizing the compensation, knowing that a lot of different people want / prefer different things. Some want cash, some warranty, some service packages, that epic 40th anniversary program, tires, etc. And some want it all. Porsche should have internally agreed what they were willing to fork out (almost like a shopping list of the above and most logical combinations) including some room for negotiations, invite every single one of us into our dealerships and finalize the deal there and then. And not let us leave until everybody has signed off their own package. In that case, still some differences would pop up (due to some better negotiators) but there would be no way back from that. Unless they would offer everybody the best possible deal, but we know they wouldn't.
They didn't do any of that. But made an emotional purchase process a business transition. Don't stick to their own deadlines. Communicate poorly. Offer vastly different packages globally. Propose illogical packages that are dis-proportionally bad for people which car is in particular stage. Underestimate the power of global communications. And so on. Bottom line: they've created a monster.
- Our package in the UAE is a lot better than yours in the USA, even though the car's price is the same.
- The cash compensation for the US clients is the same regardless whether your car is at the factory, in the port or delivered (and paid for). That's utterly illogical.
- The same for the additional warranty. No disrespect to people who don't have car yet, but only for the people who got their cars delivered, the clock is ticking already. So the 12 months to them is effectively somewhere between 6 and 8. Which is illogical once again.
- On top of that, I seem to be the only one so far (at least who's posted it) who managed to get 2 years additional warranty as a result of this stop-drive.
There would have been 1 proper way of finalizing the compensation, knowing that a lot of different people want / prefer different things. Some want cash, some warranty, some service packages, that epic 40th anniversary program, tires, etc. And some want it all. Porsche should have internally agreed what they were willing to fork out (almost like a shopping list of the above and most logical combinations) including some room for negotiations, invite every single one of us into our dealerships and finalize the deal there and then. And not let us leave until everybody has signed off their own package. In that case, still some differences would pop up (due to some better negotiators) but there would be no way back from that. Unless they would offer everybody the best possible deal, but we know they wouldn't.
They didn't do any of that. But made an emotional purchase process a business transition. Don't stick to their own deadlines. Communicate poorly. Offer vastly different packages globally. Propose illogical packages that are dis-proportionally bad for people which car is in particular stage. Underestimate the power of global communications. And so on. Bottom line: they've created a monster.
04-13-2014, 09:10 AM
#847
Three Wheelin'
Does ME get the engines before the US? May be they expect the US cars to get the engines much later making the total compensation still 12k. I know, not fair. But they might have a fixed upper budget/car beyond which it probably make sense for them to just buy the car back.
04-13-2014, 10:47 AM
#848
1st Gear
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
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Just managed to read the latest posts again after traveling, but I'm progressively more shocked about the different and illogical packages offered.
- Our package in the UAE is a lot better than yours in the USA, even though the car's price is the same.
- The cash compensation for the US clients is the same regardless whether your car is at the factory, in the port or delivered (and paid for). That's utterly illogical.
- The same for the additional warranty. No disrespect to people who don't have car yet, but only for the people who got their cars delivered, the clock is ticking already. So the 12 months to them is effectively somewhere between 6 and 8. Which is illogical once again.
- On top of that, I seem to be the only one so far (at least who's posted it) who managed to get 2 years additional warranty as a result of this stop-drive.
There would have been 1 proper way of finalizing the compensation, knowing that a lot of different people want / prefer different things. Some want cash, some warranty, some service packages, that epic 40th anniversary program, tires, etc. And some want it all. Porsche should have internally agreed what they were willing to fork out (almost like a shopping list of the above and most logical combinations) including some room for negotiations, invite every single one of us into our dealerships and finalize the deal there and then. And not let us leave until everybody has signed off their own package. In that case, still some differences would pop up (due to some better negotiators) but there would be no way back from that. Unless they would offer everybody the best possible deal, but we know they wouldn't.
They didn't do any of that. But made an emotional purchase process a business transition. Don't stick to their own deadlines. Communicate poorly. Offer vastly different packages globally. Propose illogical packages that are dis-proportionally bad for people which car is in particular stage. Underestimate the power of global communications. And so on. Bottom line: they've created a monster.
- Our package in the UAE is a lot better than yours in the USA, even though the car's price is the same.
- The cash compensation for the US clients is the same regardless whether your car is at the factory, in the port or delivered (and paid for). That's utterly illogical.
- The same for the additional warranty. No disrespect to people who don't have car yet, but only for the people who got their cars delivered, the clock is ticking already. So the 12 months to them is effectively somewhere between 6 and 8. Which is illogical once again.
- On top of that, I seem to be the only one so far (at least who's posted it) who managed to get 2 years additional warranty as a result of this stop-drive.
There would have been 1 proper way of finalizing the compensation, knowing that a lot of different people want / prefer different things. Some want cash, some warranty, some service packages, that epic 40th anniversary program, tires, etc. And some want it all. Porsche should have internally agreed what they were willing to fork out (almost like a shopping list of the above and most logical combinations) including some room for negotiations, invite every single one of us into our dealerships and finalize the deal there and then. And not let us leave until everybody has signed off their own package. In that case, still some differences would pop up (due to some better negotiators) but there would be no way back from that. Unless they would offer everybody the best possible deal, but we know they wouldn't.
They didn't do any of that. But made an emotional purchase process a business transition. Don't stick to their own deadlines. Communicate poorly. Offer vastly different packages globally. Propose illogical packages that are dis-proportionally bad for people which car is in particular stage. Underestimate the power of global communications. And so on. Bottom line: they've created a monster.
I am new here, but am in the same boat like you. I live in Dubai and I own the 2014 GT3. I got the car in Jan. The brand lady offered my a 12 months extended warranty and 12k USD cash. Just thought I would share this in case you guys are planning to take one action together.
In my case warranty is not a big deal, I want the car ASAP. Change is always good too.
Regards,
04-13-2014, 10:59 AM
#849
1st Gear
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 1
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Received 0 Likes
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Hi,
I am new here, but am in the same boat like you. I live in Dubai and I own the 2014 GT3. I got the car in Jan. The brand lady offered my a 12 months extended warranty and 12k USD cash. Just thought I would share this in case you guys are planning to take one action together.
In my case warranty is not a big deal, I want the car ASAP. Change is always good too.
Regards,
I am new here, but am in the same boat like you. I live in Dubai and I own the 2014 GT3. I got the car in Jan. The brand lady offered my a 12 months extended warranty and 12k USD cash. Just thought I would share this in case you guys are planning to take one action together.
In my case warranty is not a big deal, I want the car ASAP. Change is always good too.
Regards,
04-13-2014, 01:19 PM
#850
Rennlist Member
Anyone see a post from Macca? He had a earthquake and tsunami warning in his back yard (7.5 rigter scale at Solomon Islands) this morning early.. Maybe off the grid for a bit, hoping all is OK.
04-13-2014, 02:22 PM
#852
Race Director
Just managed to read the latest posts again after traveling, but I'm progressively more shocked about the different and illogical packages offered.
- Our package in the UAE is a lot better than yours in the USA, even though the car's price is the same.
- The cash compensation for the US clients is the same regardless whether your car is at the factory, in the port or delivered (and paid for). That's utterly illogical.
- The same for the additional warranty. No disrespect to people who don't have car yet, but only for the people who got their cars delivered, the clock is ticking already. So the 12 months to them is effectively somewhere between 6 and 8. Which is illogical once again.
- On top of that, I seem to be the only one so far (at least who's posted it) who managed to get 2 years additional warranty as a result of this stop-drive.
There would have been 1 proper way of finalizing the compensation, knowing that a lot of different people want / prefer different things. Some want cash, some warranty, some service packages, that epic 40th anniversary program, tires, etc. And some want it all. Porsche should have internally agreed what they were willing to fork out (almost like a shopping list of the above and most logical combinations) including some room for negotiations, invite every single one of us into our dealerships and finalize the deal there and then. And not let us leave until everybody has signed off their own package. In that case, still some differences would pop up (due to some better negotiators) but there would be no way back from that. Unless they would offer everybody the best possible deal, but we know they wouldn't.
They didn't do any of that. But made an emotional purchase process a business transition. Don't stick to their own deadlines. Communicate poorly. Offer vastly different packages globally. Propose illogical packages that are dis-proportionally bad for people which car is in particular stage. Underestimate the power of global communications. And so on. Bottom line: they've created a monster.
- Our package in the UAE is a lot better than yours in the USA, even though the car's price is the same.
- The cash compensation for the US clients is the same regardless whether your car is at the factory, in the port or delivered (and paid for). That's utterly illogical.
- The same for the additional warranty. No disrespect to people who don't have car yet, but only for the people who got their cars delivered, the clock is ticking already. So the 12 months to them is effectively somewhere between 6 and 8. Which is illogical once again.
- On top of that, I seem to be the only one so far (at least who's posted it) who managed to get 2 years additional warranty as a result of this stop-drive.
There would have been 1 proper way of finalizing the compensation, knowing that a lot of different people want / prefer different things. Some want cash, some warranty, some service packages, that epic 40th anniversary program, tires, etc. And some want it all. Porsche should have internally agreed what they were willing to fork out (almost like a shopping list of the above and most logical combinations) including some room for negotiations, invite every single one of us into our dealerships and finalize the deal there and then. And not let us leave until everybody has signed off their own package. In that case, still some differences would pop up (due to some better negotiators) but there would be no way back from that. Unless they would offer everybody the best possible deal, but we know they wouldn't.
They didn't do any of that. But made an emotional purchase process a business transition. Don't stick to their own deadlines. Communicate poorly. Offer vastly different packages globally. Propose illogical packages that are dis-proportionally bad for people which car is in particular stage. Underestimate the power of global communications. And so on. Bottom line: they've created a monster.
Hi,
I am new here, but am in the same boat like you. I live in Dubai and I own the 2014 GT3. I got the car in Jan. The brand lady offered my a 12 months extended warranty and 12k USD cash. Just thought I would share this in case you guys are planning to take one action together.
In my case warranty is not a big deal, I want the car ASAP. Change is always good too.
Regards,
I am new here, but am in the same boat like you. I live in Dubai and I own the 2014 GT3. I got the car in Jan. The brand lady offered my a 12 months extended warranty and 12k USD cash. Just thought I would share this in case you guys are planning to take one action together.
In my case warranty is not a big deal, I want the car ASAP. Change is always good too.
Regards,
04-13-2014, 02:48 PM
#854
Rennlist Member
Just managed to read the latest posts again after traveling, but I'm progressively more shocked about the different and illogical packages offered. - Our package in the UAE is a lot better than yours in the USA, even though the car's price is the same. - The cash compensation for the US clients is the same regardless whether your car is at the factory, in the port or delivered (and paid for). That's utterly illogical. - The same for the additional warranty. No disrespect to people who don't have car yet, but only for the people who got their cars delivered, the clock is ticking already. So the 12 months to them is effectively somewhere between 6 and 8. Which is illogical once again. - On top of that, I seem to be the only one so far (at least who's posted it) who managed to get 2 years additional warranty as a result of this stop-drive. There would have been 1 proper way of finalizing the compensation, knowing that a lot of different people want / prefer different things. Some want cash, some warranty, some service packages, that epic 40th anniversary program, tires, etc. And some want it all. Porsche should have internally agreed what they were willing to fork out (almost like a shopping list of the above and most logical combinations) including some room for negotiations, invite every single one of us into our dealerships and finalize the deal there and then. And not let us leave until everybody has signed off their own package. In that case, still some differences would pop up (due to some better negotiators) but there would be no way back from that. Unless they would offer everybody the best possible deal, but we know they wouldn't. They didn't do any of that. But made an emotional purchase process a business transition. Don't stick to their own deadlines. Communicate poorly. Offer vastly different packages globally. Propose illogical packages that are dis-proportionally bad for people which car is in particular stage. Underestimate the power of global communications. And so on. Bottom line: they've created a monster.
04-14-2014, 12:37 AM
#855
The Rebel
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Here hoping to Macca is doing well.
Not sure if this has been posted but worldcarfans.com is reporting a 1-year warranty extension.
http://www.worldcarfans.com/11404137...-an-extra-year
Not sure if this has been posted but worldcarfans.com is reporting a 1-year warranty extension.
http://www.worldcarfans.com/11404137...-an-extra-year