2 GT3 Videos from Goodwood. One In Car
07-17-2013, 03:38 PM
#32
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IIRC, AP said they turn identical laptimes but the MPSC's have better feel in the dry and the Dunlops are better in the wet.
07-17-2013, 04:32 PM
#33
Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 Tires (or Tyres)
Interesting info on the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires that was posted on the Pistonheads forum by Porkafly:
This is what I wrote...it's based on fact and perhaps too subtle about inside knowledge, but I can assure you I've not dreamt it up and it's based on a personal conversation with the one person who should know:
"The biggest news is that the Pilot Sport Cup 2s will totally transform our tyre usage on GT3s. They have deep tread like Super Sports, but will give same performance and traction as Cups, if not better, and wear like Super Sports. They will be OEM on 991 GT3 and then progressively rolled-out down through 19s and 18s. They are going to be epic and move the game on in way Super Sports did from PS2s. Michelin really getting behind track day and Porsche enthusiast and committed to doing more, and now working well with Porsche on 991/Cup2 activity.
Issue on MPSS on rating sign off was down to one Porsche test driver not liking them...I know the full story but not for a public forum. Michelin will stand behind the MPSS on 911s that aren't N rated to date and as we know they're on PEC cars and loved by all of us who've used them. And they're OEM on 458s and other exotica so go figure...Porsche at its very best (worst) I'm afraid and lots of embarrassed/bemused people. It wasn't Michelin's fault. I understand that n-rated MPSS will (now that it's sorted) be progressively rolled-out throughout 911 types over the next few years. I will try and post availability dates when I know them.
And finally back to Cup2 again...it will be awesome on our GT3s.
PF"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have used MPSS on both my GT3s and bring the 325 section rears back from US..Michelin know this is silly and will address it I'm told.
Michelin will be rolling out n rated MPSS throughout a range of sizes, as we've seen with chap who posted the other evening. I do not expect, based on conversations with my contact, that the 997 GT3 tyres will be n rated soon. This is related to my comment above on fiasco of rating it in the first place for 997 GT3. It could come but I'm sceptical.
However I am not sceptical on the Cup2..from the get-go it's already n rated for the 991 GT3 and fitted to car we saw at Goodwood. I am assured this will flow down to other sizes and because it's been done properly from the start this time, it will happen quickly. Worst case scenario you can read this as quicker than they did on MPSS. Consequently, and per my posts, I see n rating the MPSS for 997 GT3 as irrelevant for me now, as the Cup2 has the tread depth of MPSS, the performance plus of Cup, and wear of MPSS. Michelin know this and are busy making sure the GT3/track day market are looked after and that Cup doesn't work for us as a track and road tyre.
Regarding the competitors, the Dunlop and Continental tyres for 997 GT3 were blitzed in private testing by the new Cup2. Michelin know the Cup2 is a step change in performance and capability over Cup, and based on what we saw with capabilities of MPSS vs PS2 2yrs ago, I don't doubt they've moved the game on massively.
Hopefully that long read above is of some genuine help/hope to folks...but I don't work at Michelin or control what they do, so info is good as of now, and who knows what decisions/changes may be made in future given what we witnessed with MPSS. All I can say is there is a renewed confidence with them in what they can do and the commitment in France. If/when I know launch dates for other sizes on Cup2 I will let you all know.
PF
.
"The biggest news is that the Pilot Sport Cup 2s will totally transform our tyre usage on GT3s. They have deep tread like Super Sports, but will give same performance and traction as Cups, if not better, and wear like Super Sports. They will be OEM on 991 GT3 and then progressively rolled-out down through 19s and 18s. They are going to be epic and move the game on in way Super Sports did from PS2s. Michelin really getting behind track day and Porsche enthusiast and committed to doing more, and now working well with Porsche on 991/Cup2 activity.
Issue on MPSS on rating sign off was down to one Porsche test driver not liking them...I know the full story but not for a public forum. Michelin will stand behind the MPSS on 911s that aren't N rated to date and as we know they're on PEC cars and loved by all of us who've used them. And they're OEM on 458s and other exotica so go figure...Porsche at its very best (worst) I'm afraid and lots of embarrassed/bemused people. It wasn't Michelin's fault. I understand that n-rated MPSS will (now that it's sorted) be progressively rolled-out throughout 911 types over the next few years. I will try and post availability dates when I know them.
And finally back to Cup2 again...it will be awesome on our GT3s.
PF"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have used MPSS on both my GT3s and bring the 325 section rears back from US..Michelin know this is silly and will address it I'm told.
Michelin will be rolling out n rated MPSS throughout a range of sizes, as we've seen with chap who posted the other evening. I do not expect, based on conversations with my contact, that the 997 GT3 tyres will be n rated soon. This is related to my comment above on fiasco of rating it in the first place for 997 GT3. It could come but I'm sceptical.
However I am not sceptical on the Cup2..from the get-go it's already n rated for the 991 GT3 and fitted to car we saw at Goodwood. I am assured this will flow down to other sizes and because it's been done properly from the start this time, it will happen quickly. Worst case scenario you can read this as quicker than they did on MPSS. Consequently, and per my posts, I see n rating the MPSS for 997 GT3 as irrelevant for me now, as the Cup2 has the tread depth of MPSS, the performance plus of Cup, and wear of MPSS. Michelin know this and are busy making sure the GT3/track day market are looked after and that Cup doesn't work for us as a track and road tyre.
Regarding the competitors, the Dunlop and Continental tyres for 997 GT3 were blitzed in private testing by the new Cup2. Michelin know the Cup2 is a step change in performance and capability over Cup, and based on what we saw with capabilities of MPSS vs PS2 2yrs ago, I don't doubt they've moved the game on massively.
Hopefully that long read above is of some genuine help/hope to folks...but I don't work at Michelin or control what they do, so info is good as of now, and who knows what decisions/changes may be made in future given what we witnessed with MPSS. All I can say is there is a renewed confidence with them in what they can do and the commitment in France. If/when I know launch dates for other sizes on Cup2 I will let you all know.
PF
07-17-2013, 04:44 PM
#34
Are the times meaningful?
Are they published from the event somewhere?
Is the course layout and conditions exactly the same year to year?
Is it a one-up driver in a timed competition?
Sure, there's display clocks, but are they just part of the entertainment?
It looks like leisure sport driving with passengers and hay bales as safety fences being driven by "trusted" drivers (except for the poor guy that mangled the Giugiaro Parcour ... he's probably not so trusted any more) with safety being the priority.
In any case, the sights and sounds of the new engine are dramatic and impressive -- popping the clutch, chirping the tires, red-line upshifts, banging it off the rev-limiter ... all very fun, but I imagine the driver of the Carrera GT didn't want to hear screaming tires behind him in a confined space ... : )
Though it says launch control, the blue smoke suggests that was either a flubbed launch or the driver decided to forego the time advantage of launch control altogether in favor of some show boating.
My only real "take away" impression was that the 918 is looking very good next to the tall and bloated 991 ... : | ...
Old AP was in full-on show-boat performance mode ... but's he's an engineer, not a marketing guy, right? : )
The McLaren P1 really steals the show.
Are they published from the event somewhere?
Is the course layout and conditions exactly the same year to year?
Is it a one-up driver in a timed competition?
Sure, there's display clocks, but are they just part of the entertainment?
It looks like leisure sport driving with passengers and hay bales as safety fences being driven by "trusted" drivers (except for the poor guy that mangled the Giugiaro Parcour ... he's probably not so trusted any more) with safety being the priority.
In any case, the sights and sounds of the new engine are dramatic and impressive -- popping the clutch, chirping the tires, red-line upshifts, banging it off the rev-limiter ... all very fun, but I imagine the driver of the Carrera GT didn't want to hear screaming tires behind him in a confined space ... : )
Though it says launch control, the blue smoke suggests that was either a flubbed launch or the driver decided to forego the time advantage of launch control altogether in favor of some show boating.
My only real "take away" impression was that the 918 is looking very good next to the tall and bloated 991 ... : | ...
Old AP was in full-on show-boat performance mode ... but's he's an engineer, not a marketing guy, right? : )
The McLaren P1 really steals the show.
07-17-2013, 05:19 PM
#35
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07-17-2013, 05:41 PM
#36
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Are the times meaningful?
Are they published from the event somewhere?
Is the course layout and conditions exactly the same year to year?
Is it a one-up driver in a timed competition?
Sure, there's display clocks, but are they just part of the entertainment?
It looks like leisure sport driving with passengers and hay bales as safety fences being driven by "trusted" drivers (except for the poor guy that mangled the Giugiaro Parcour ... he's probably not so trusted any more) with safety being the priority.
In any case, the sights and sounds of the new engine are dramatic and impressive -- popping the clutch, chirping the tires, red-line upshifts, banging it off the rev-limiter ... all very fun, but I imagine the driver of the Carrera GT didn't want to hear screaming tires behind him in a confined space ... : )
Though it says launch control, the blue smoke suggests that was either a flubbed launch or the driver decided to forego the time advantage of launch control altogether in favor of some show boating.
My only real "take away" impression was that the 918 is looking very good next to the tall and bloated 991 ... : | ...
Old AP was in full-on show-boat performance mode ... but's he's an engineer, not a marketing guy, right? : )
The McLaren P1 really steals the show.
Are they published from the event somewhere?
Is the course layout and conditions exactly the same year to year?
Is it a one-up driver in a timed competition?
Sure, there's display clocks, but are they just part of the entertainment?
It looks like leisure sport driving with passengers and hay bales as safety fences being driven by "trusted" drivers (except for the poor guy that mangled the Giugiaro Parcour ... he's probably not so trusted any more) with safety being the priority.
In any case, the sights and sounds of the new engine are dramatic and impressive -- popping the clutch, chirping the tires, red-line upshifts, banging it off the rev-limiter ... all very fun, but I imagine the driver of the Carrera GT didn't want to hear screaming tires behind him in a confined space ... : )
Though it says launch control, the blue smoke suggests that was either a flubbed launch or the driver decided to forego the time advantage of launch control altogether in favor of some show boating.
My only real "take away" impression was that the 918 is looking very good next to the tall and bloated 991 ... : | ...
Old AP was in full-on show-boat performance mode ... but's he's an engineer, not a marketing guy, right? : )
The McLaren P1 really steals the show.
http://www.goodwood.co.uk/festival-o...e/foslive.aspx
The part of the event that AP took part in along with others was the supercar event where manufacturers get a chance to air their new wares (Lambo, McLaren P1, GT3 etc). Its not a competition nor is any prize given. Its a non competitive part of the event but is still timed like the real event although passengers are allowed.
I think you will find if you stuffy the videos on youtube both inside and outside the GT3 that it was launched in launch mode and simply wheel spun in the first 2 gears. Remember the car was sitting in a paddock for hours before this run and the tyres would have been stone cold at the beginning of teh run. Looking at others runs very similar situation.
54-55s against the P1 at 53 with a pro driver and 50 for race cars with pro drivers is pretty damn impressive. In comparison to the 918 we are talking under 1/6th of the price for a bout a second less performance on that short course.
AP was show boating. Has very right too. This was the GT3s first proper public debut and its quite a risky move for a manufacturer. Could have ended in tears. He was driving with 100kg balast (passenger) and being filmed and watched by many 1000s people live so I think he did pretty well for an "engineer".
07-17-2013, 05:50 PM
#37
Burning Brakes
Are the times meaningful?
Are they published from the event somewhere?
Is the course layout and conditions exactly the same year to year?
Is it a one-up driver in a timed competition?
Sure, there's display clocks, but are they just part of the entertainment?
It looks like leisure sport driving with passengers and hay bales as safety fences being driven by "trusted" drivers (except for the poor guy that mangled the Giugiaro Parcour ... he's probably not so trusted any more) with safety being the priority.
In any case, the sights and sounds of the new engine are dramatic and impressive -- popping the clutch, chirping the tires, red-line upshifts, banging it off the rev-limiter ... all very fun, but I imagine the driver of the Carrera GT didn't want to hear screaming tires behind him in a confined space ... : )
Though it says launch control, the blue smoke suggests that was either a flubbed launch or the driver decided to forego the time advantage of launch control altogether in favor of some show boating.
My only real "take away" impression was that the 918 is looking very good next to the tall and bloated 991 ... : | ...
Old AP was in full-on show-boat performance mode ... but's he's an engineer, not a marketing guy, right? : )
The McLaren P1 really steals the show.
Are they published from the event somewhere?
Is the course layout and conditions exactly the same year to year?
Is it a one-up driver in a timed competition?
Sure, there's display clocks, but are they just part of the entertainment?
It looks like leisure sport driving with passengers and hay bales as safety fences being driven by "trusted" drivers (except for the poor guy that mangled the Giugiaro Parcour ... he's probably not so trusted any more) with safety being the priority.
In any case, the sights and sounds of the new engine are dramatic and impressive -- popping the clutch, chirping the tires, red-line upshifts, banging it off the rev-limiter ... all very fun, but I imagine the driver of the Carrera GT didn't want to hear screaming tires behind him in a confined space ... : )
Though it says launch control, the blue smoke suggests that was either a flubbed launch or the driver decided to forego the time advantage of launch control altogether in favor of some show boating.
My only real "take away" impression was that the 918 is looking very good next to the tall and bloated 991 ... : | ...
Old AP was in full-on show-boat performance mode ... but's he's an engineer, not a marketing guy, right? : )
The McLaren P1 really steals the show.
This time was calculated off of the posted video.
Is it meaningful ?? To me yes, as it gives an idea of performance as it relates to other cars that ran the course.
The course is the same from year to year. Conditions will vary
No one off driver. It was AP in the GT3
Launch control used on the in car video, the other I don't believe so...too much wheel spin...
All of course MHO...
07-17-2013, 06:23 PM
#39
Based on those descriptions, I'd say the actual times aren't meaningful, they are more like the "safe" pace that a skilled driver can produce. More of an 8/10ths, with maybe slower/wider margins for error if there's a fast sweeper or a point where a mistake would be life threatening.
I'm surprised to see that course being used for outright competition, what little I've seen of it over the years, I've never really taken a close look at it, but the potential for a car to reach the crowd looks a bit sketchy. In any case, I'm envious and I'd be there behind those hay bales and loving it.
The only place you see this selection of cars getting driven a bit madly in the US is as they're being driven away from the golf club fairways after the big concours events.
This is certainly Porsche best promotional video to date. I'm a bit cool on the GT3 just because of the logistical nonsense coming out of the factory for US customers, but I have to say it sounds good and it looks like it handles nicely. It looked better dialed in than the P1 over some of those roads. Still, hopefully it's easy to take off the PASM ... : )
I'm surprised to see that course being used for outright competition, what little I've seen of it over the years, I've never really taken a close look at it, but the potential for a car to reach the crowd looks a bit sketchy. In any case, I'm envious and I'd be there behind those hay bales and loving it.
The only place you see this selection of cars getting driven a bit madly in the US is as they're being driven away from the golf club fairways after the big concours events.
This is certainly Porsche best promotional video to date. I'm a bit cool on the GT3 just because of the logistical nonsense coming out of the factory for US customers, but I have to say it sounds good and it looks like it handles nicely. It looked better dialed in than the P1 over some of those roads. Still, hopefully it's easy to take off the PASM ... : )
07-17-2013, 06:43 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
CarreraGT. These events are quite common in the UK. Less so in Europe. However if you have ever spent the weekend at LeMans you will feel teh same thrill as the cars come down the hill and you are standing only meters away behind a think piece of armco and a small fence. At 330km hrs if they left the track there would be a big mess to all and sundry.
I know gravel rally isnt big in the USA but in NZ, UK & Europe its not uncommon to be standing right on the edge of a course with cars literally throwing stones at you. I lost a lens filter this way on an expensive SLR trying to grab a shot. In my mind its all part of the Motorsport experience much of which has been numbed down by litigation and laws to protect the spectator etc.
Bit silly really as Darin had is sorted with his theory - Survival of the Fittest. If you too stupid to stand close and get a rock in your head those are the chances you take LOL!
Remember at Goodwood Hillclimb those cars cant go too quickly - probably never much above 100kmph.
Try not to be but of the car by the Big Brother USA Porsche thing. Its a very interesting and arguably a paradigm shifting product. You may love it or hate it but you will never know till you've owned it. Tonnes on here speculating one way or the other when all they need to do is "shut and and buy it". Cars are cheap in the USA after all and these will hardly depreciate in the first 12 months.
Guys on here whining on here about waiting for depreciation or waiting to get a drive of a demonstrator (cant imagine many dealers will have a demonstrator?) or if it will be too there liking etc. I say get your name down and buy it and find out (live with it no just one day drive). You look at their signatures and they usually have 5 other cars in their household all bought new depreciating like a rock and yet we moan on and waste bandwidth here debating stuff which to be honest can only be answered by getting out bums on the seat.....
I know gravel rally isnt big in the USA but in NZ, UK & Europe its not uncommon to be standing right on the edge of a course with cars literally throwing stones at you. I lost a lens filter this way on an expensive SLR trying to grab a shot. In my mind its all part of the Motorsport experience much of which has been numbed down by litigation and laws to protect the spectator etc.
Bit silly really as Darin had is sorted with his theory - Survival of the Fittest. If you too stupid to stand close and get a rock in your head those are the chances you take LOL!
Remember at Goodwood Hillclimb those cars cant go too quickly - probably never much above 100kmph.
Try not to be but of the car by the Big Brother USA Porsche thing. Its a very interesting and arguably a paradigm shifting product. You may love it or hate it but you will never know till you've owned it. Tonnes on here speculating one way or the other when all they need to do is "shut and and buy it". Cars are cheap in the USA after all and these will hardly depreciate in the first 12 months.
Guys on here whining on here about waiting for depreciation or waiting to get a drive of a demonstrator (cant imagine many dealers will have a demonstrator?) or if it will be too there liking etc. I say get your name down and buy it and find out (live with it no just one day drive). You look at their signatures and they usually have 5 other cars in their household all bought new depreciating like a rock and yet we moan on and waste bandwidth here debating stuff which to be honest can only be answered by getting out bums on the seat.....
07-17-2013, 06:49 PM
#43
Race Director
Based on those descriptions, I'd say the actual times aren't meaningful, they are more like the "safe" pace that a skilled driver can produce. More of an 8/10ths, with maybe slower/wider margins for error if there's a fast sweeper or a point where a mistake would be life threatening.
But even if your assumptions are true, it's fair to say that everyone is operating with more or less the same constraints in which case it's still possible to make rough comparisons between cars. Which is why a 54sec time for the 991 GT3 compared to a 53 for a P1 with an F1 hotshoe behind the wheel, or a 1:04 for a prior year 3.8 RS, is pretty damned impressive.
07-17-2013, 06:56 PM
#44
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07-17-2013, 06:58 PM
#45
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You'd have expected Button driving the 991 GT3 to put in 53s given he was giving it a good dose. Imagine the upset LOL!
My "inside information" tells me the 991 GT3 will be a huge upset on tight tracks of less than 7 miles (most in Europe & UK) compared to the new super car establishment. This is why Ive been repeatedly banging on about "wait until we get some track reviews". The car has already been lapped at Spa & a number of other tracks and I think it will make very interesting reading. Putting it bluntly you will have to spend many multiples of its price to beat it on any reasonable track...it pretty much anilates everything this side of a cup car or dedicated open track machine (Apollo, Ultima etc)
My "inside information" tells me the 991 GT3 will be a huge upset on tight tracks of less than 7 miles (most in Europe & UK) compared to the new super car establishment. This is why Ive been repeatedly banging on about "wait until we get some track reviews". The car has already been lapped at Spa & a number of other tracks and I think it will make very interesting reading. Putting it bluntly you will have to spend many multiples of its price to beat it on any reasonable track...it pretty much anilates everything this side of a cup car or dedicated open track machine (Apollo, Ultima etc)