Drove new Turbo and turbo today... underwhelmed
03-24-2017, 11:32 PM
#1
Drove new Turbo and turbo today... underwhelmed
Stopped by my dealer today to try out a used 2014 Turbo S coupe (PDK of course) and a new 2017 (turbo) 4S manual coupe with sport exhaust....
As a current GT3 owner and past GT4, 981 Boxster S, 987 Cayman, and 996 targa owner (all manuals except the GT3 of course), it was my first experience driving either.
I was very underwhelmed.... the Turbo S was certainly comfortable, and when pressed, very quick. But it just felt... boring, even in sport mode. And there is definitely lag too. The regular PDK in it isn't anywhere close to the engagement of PDK-S in the 991.1 GT3.
The Turbo S also had PCCBs, my first time trying them too. I couldn't tell any difference in how the car drove or stopped. They didn't squeak or feel anything but normal, which I suppose is good. But they also didn't make the car feel "lighter" or more agile in any way, nor was the suspension somehow transformed by their lower unsprung weight, at least not that I could tell. I suppose maybe ok a track they wouldn't fade as soon as regular brakes, but I would never know the difference. Can now happily check that option off my .2 GT3 order.
The Carrara 4S manual coupe I had no expectations for. But it also underwhelmed. The clutch was way too light. The engine didn't sound any good, and with the sport exhaust on, worse (fake crackles on overrun). Overall sensation of thrust and transmission... "springy". The new PCM was nice.
Overall, based on recent drives, I would much rather drive a used 991.1 GTS manual coupe (or 50th, which is mechanically same) than either of these more expensive 911's.
Guess I've been spoiled by my GT3.
As a current GT3 owner and past GT4, 981 Boxster S, 987 Cayman, and 996 targa owner (all manuals except the GT3 of course), it was my first experience driving either.
I was very underwhelmed.... the Turbo S was certainly comfortable, and when pressed, very quick. But it just felt... boring, even in sport mode. And there is definitely lag too. The regular PDK in it isn't anywhere close to the engagement of PDK-S in the 991.1 GT3.
The Turbo S also had PCCBs, my first time trying them too. I couldn't tell any difference in how the car drove or stopped. They didn't squeak or feel anything but normal, which I suppose is good. But they also didn't make the car feel "lighter" or more agile in any way, nor was the suspension somehow transformed by their lower unsprung weight, at least not that I could tell. I suppose maybe ok a track they wouldn't fade as soon as regular brakes, but I would never know the difference. Can now happily check that option off my .2 GT3 order.
The Carrara 4S manual coupe I had no expectations for. But it also underwhelmed. The clutch was way too light. The engine didn't sound any good, and with the sport exhaust on, worse (fake crackles on overrun). Overall sensation of thrust and transmission... "springy". The new PCM was nice.
Overall, based on recent drives, I would much rather drive a used 991.1 GTS manual coupe (or 50th, which is mechanically same) than either of these more expensive 911's.
Guess I've been spoiled by my GT3.
03-25-2017, 12:40 AM
#2
Interesting feed back, I spent some time in a Turbo S on the track a couple of time. Didn't find it underwhelming at all, but I don't care for the turbo sound when compared to my RS. It's more of a touring lightening fast car. The cars is zero to sixty sub 3 seconds not sure that's underwhelming ........launching it can make you feel ill because of the force.
Again not a turbo fan, but the car is stupid fast ......not sure how much drive time you got. It has more power and torque than our RS car which are high revving. May want to take a second spin, my top speed in the turbo S was about 198 and it stopped with no fad PCCB's.
Again not a turbo fan, but the car is stupid fast ......not sure how much drive time you got. It has more power and torque than our RS car which are high revving. May want to take a second spin, my top speed in the turbo S was about 198 and it stopped with no fad PCCB's.
03-25-2017, 12:41 AM
#3
Rennlist Member
Agree with Lapis. I toyed with the idea of leasing a 991.2 C2S for a couple years, while selling my GT3 this winter before the prices started to drop, and then buying a .2 GT3 at the end of the production run.
I thoroughly tested a 991.2 C2S with sport suspension, PDK, and RWS.
I could live with the suspension as it was more forgiving than my GT3, but still engaging to drive and definitely trackable. Turbo lag is present, but rather minimal in the new Carreras, while the Turbo/S models still have lots of lag in normal(not track) driving. The 368 ft-lbs of torque was quite nice, and I had lots of power in any RPM. The new electronics are great.
However,,,,,,,,,PDK-S is still so much better and faster than regular PDK. The 991.2 sounded terrible even with PSE, and the car was just so clinical, like a sterile rocket ship.
I felt nothing driving the 991.2 carrera, it wasn't an experience to get into and drive it, like my GT3. I missed the sound of the GT3 engine, shifting through the gears, and the linear but instant power curve. Also realized again just how amazing is the PDK-S. And while stiffer, I felt much more connected to the road with the GT3 suspension.
I decided to enjoy my .1 GT3 for another 18 months, and take the depreciation hit on my .1 when I sell it for my .2GT3 that will be arriving next year, as I don't ever want to be without a GT3 again.
Once you've owned and experienced a GT3, you can't go back to anything less.
I thoroughly tested a 991.2 C2S with sport suspension, PDK, and RWS.
I could live with the suspension as it was more forgiving than my GT3, but still engaging to drive and definitely trackable. Turbo lag is present, but rather minimal in the new Carreras, while the Turbo/S models still have lots of lag in normal(not track) driving. The 368 ft-lbs of torque was quite nice, and I had lots of power in any RPM. The new electronics are great.
However,,,,,,,,,PDK-S is still so much better and faster than regular PDK. The 991.2 sounded terrible even with PSE, and the car was just so clinical, like a sterile rocket ship.
I felt nothing driving the 991.2 carrera, it wasn't an experience to get into and drive it, like my GT3. I missed the sound of the GT3 engine, shifting through the gears, and the linear but instant power curve. Also realized again just how amazing is the PDK-S. And while stiffer, I felt much more connected to the road with the GT3 suspension.
I decided to enjoy my .1 GT3 for another 18 months, and take the depreciation hit on my .1 when I sell it for my .2GT3 that will be arriving next year, as I don't ever want to be without a GT3 again.
Once you've owned and experienced a GT3, you can't go back to anything less.
Last edited by Drifting; 03-25-2017 at 07:11 AM.
03-25-2017, 12:56 AM
#4
Apples meet oranges.
03-25-2017, 01:05 AM
#6
RL Community Team
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Different cars for different expectations.
There are as many, if not many more, owners of 991 911s who test drive a GT3 and come away either underwhelmed or nonplussed, or both.
I think it's unfair to both cars (and owners of both cars) to compare one with the other. If they were comparable, Porsche wouldn't have made both the GT3 and the Carrera (or the TT/TTS). It's because they are different, and made to appeal to different segments, is why we have both (or all three).
There are as many, if not many more, owners of 991 911s who test drive a GT3 and come away either underwhelmed or nonplussed, or both.
I think it's unfair to both cars (and owners of both cars) to compare one with the other. If they were comparable, Porsche wouldn't have made both the GT3 and the Carrera (or the TT/TTS). It's because they are different, and made to appeal to different segments, is why we have both (or all three).
03-25-2017, 01:08 AM
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Stopped by my dealer today to try out a used 2014 Turbo S coupe (PDK of course) and a new 2017 (turbo) 4S manual coupe with sport exhaust....
As a current GT3 owner and past GT4, 981 Boxster S, 987 Cayman, and 996 targa owner (all manuals except the GT3 of course), it was my first experience driving either.
I was very underwhelmed.... the Turbo S was certainly comfortable, and when pressed, very quick. But it just felt... boring, even in sport mode. And there is definitely lag too. The regular PDK in it isn't anywhere close to the engagement of PDK-S in the 991.1 GT3.
The Turbo S also had PCCBs, my first time trying them too. I couldn't tell any difference in how the car drove or stopped. They didn't squeak or feel anything but normal, which I suppose is good. But they also didn't make the car feel "lighter" or more agile in any way, nor was the suspension somehow transformed by their lower unsprung weight, at least not that I could tell. I suppose maybe ok a track they wouldn't fade as soon as regular brakes, but I would never know the difference. Can now happily check that option off my .2 GT3 order.
The Carrara 4S manual coupe I had no expectations for. But it also underwhelmed. The clutch was way too light. The engine didn't sound any good, and with the sport exhaust on, worse (fake crackles on overrun). Overall sensation of thrust and transmission... "springy". The new PCM was nice.
Overall, based on recent drives, I would much rather drive a used 991.1 GTS manual coupe (or 50th, which is mechanically same) than either of these more expensive 911's.
Guess I've been spoiled by my GT3.
As a current GT3 owner and past GT4, 981 Boxster S, 987 Cayman, and 996 targa owner (all manuals except the GT3 of course), it was my first experience driving either.
I was very underwhelmed.... the Turbo S was certainly comfortable, and when pressed, very quick. But it just felt... boring, even in sport mode. And there is definitely lag too. The regular PDK in it isn't anywhere close to the engagement of PDK-S in the 991.1 GT3.
The Turbo S also had PCCBs, my first time trying them too. I couldn't tell any difference in how the car drove or stopped. They didn't squeak or feel anything but normal, which I suppose is good. But they also didn't make the car feel "lighter" or more agile in any way, nor was the suspension somehow transformed by their lower unsprung weight, at least not that I could tell. I suppose maybe ok a track they wouldn't fade as soon as regular brakes, but I would never know the difference. Can now happily check that option off my .2 GT3 order.
The Carrara 4S manual coupe I had no expectations for. But it also underwhelmed. The clutch was way too light. The engine didn't sound any good, and with the sport exhaust on, worse (fake crackles on overrun). Overall sensation of thrust and transmission... "springy". The new PCM was nice.
Overall, based on recent drives, I would much rather drive a used 991.1 GTS manual coupe (or 50th, which is mechanically same) than either of these more expensive 911's.
Guess I've been spoiled by my GT3.
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03-25-2017, 01:34 AM
#8
Race Director
Originally Posted by ipse dixit
There are as many, if not many more, owners of 991 911s who test drive a GT3 and come away either underwhelmed or nonplussed, or both.
Challenge you to find 2
03-25-2017, 01:49 AM
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no 991 GT3 no party
03-25-2017, 02:01 AM
#10
Rennlist Member
[QUOTE=STG;14059749]Challenge you to find 2 [/QUOTe
I am number 1!!! I daily drive a 15 TTS. I have driven the GT3 and choose not to buy it. I know for sure I am faster than most GT3 drivers in the canyons.
The TTS is a mans car. The GT3 is too stiff for me and I don't track much so I prefer not to see a big wing.
That said, the GT3 is a great car just not for me.
[/QUOTeI am number 1!!! I daily drive a 15 TTS. I have driven the GT3 and choose not to buy it. I know for sure I am faster than most GT3 drivers in the canyons.
The TTS is a mans car. The GT3 is too stiff for me and I don't track much so I prefer not to see a big wing.
That said, the GT3 is a great car just not for me.
03-25-2017, 03:32 AM
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Just go to 991 Turbo forum, and there is a whole bunch of die-hard who prefer Turbo not just in general but even on the track.
I think Turbo gets undeserved bad rep for 2 reasons: 1) 997 and even maybe 996 turbos were a bit boring. 991.1 is miles more fun and 991.2 even more so, but are guilty by association; 2) it's become common to confuse fun/character with flaws with character or sportiness, and lack of flaws with lack of character. But that's just nonsense. If a racecar suspension bottoms out or skips, it's a limitation or a flaw, and it gets tuned out if possible. Why the heck if a street car suspension does not have these flaws, it's not sporty? And so on. Reminds me of kids putting 8 degrees of camber on their wheels and 5" exhausts dragging on the ground because it's "sporty".
For the record, I have a GT3, which I drove the **** off for 3 years (I'm now in a hotel at a track with it as well), and just bought a Turbo in addition, after much deliberation. I will keep both for now, but GT3 may be the first one to leave because it's almost as good as a race car, so once I get my hands on a GT4CS or something similar, GT3 will not see much use. Turbo is a weird combination of GT3 RS, Panamera, and a honey badger. There is really nothing else quite like it. Even though I'd prefer louder exhaust and more "unpadded" vibrations, it's unique and deserves admiration. It's like an ironman suit that's just as comfortable and normal-looking as a regular suit. I'd still prefer GT3/RS for the track.
I think Turbo gets undeserved bad rep for 2 reasons: 1) 997 and even maybe 996 turbos were a bit boring. 991.1 is miles more fun and 991.2 even more so, but are guilty by association; 2) it's become common to confuse fun/character with flaws with character or sportiness, and lack of flaws with lack of character. But that's just nonsense. If a racecar suspension bottoms out or skips, it's a limitation or a flaw, and it gets tuned out if possible. Why the heck if a street car suspension does not have these flaws, it's not sporty? And so on. Reminds me of kids putting 8 degrees of camber on their wheels and 5" exhausts dragging on the ground because it's "sporty".
For the record, I have a GT3, which I drove the **** off for 3 years (I'm now in a hotel at a track with it as well), and just bought a Turbo in addition, after much deliberation. I will keep both for now, but GT3 may be the first one to leave because it's almost as good as a race car, so once I get my hands on a GT4CS or something similar, GT3 will not see much use. Turbo is a weird combination of GT3 RS, Panamera, and a honey badger. There is really nothing else quite like it. Even though I'd prefer louder exhaust and more "unpadded" vibrations, it's unique and deserves admiration. It's like an ironman suit that's just as comfortable and normal-looking as a regular suit. I'd still prefer GT3/RS for the track.
03-25-2017, 04:10 AM
#13
Rennlist Member
Just go to 991 Turbo forum, and there is a whole bunch of die-hard who prefer Turbo not just in general but even on the track.
I think Turbo gets undeserved bad rep for 2 reasons: 1) 997 and even maybe 996 turbos were a bit boring. 991.1 is miles more fun and 991.2 even more so, but are guilty by association; 2) it's become common to confuse fun/character with flaws with character or sportiness, and lack of flaws with lack of character. But that's just nonsense. If a racecar suspension bottoms out or skips, it's a limitation or a flaw, and it gets tuned out if possible. Why the heck if a street car suspension does not have these flaws, it's not sporty? And so on. Reminds me of kids putting 8 degrees of camber on their wheels and 5" exhausts dragging on the ground because it's "sporty".
For the record, I have a GT3, which I drove the **** off for 3 years (I'm now in a hotel at a track with it as well), and just bought a Turbo in addition, after much deliberation. I will keep both for now, but GT3 may be the first one to leave because it's almost as good as a race car, so once I get my hands on a GT4CS or something similar, GT3 will not see much use. Turbo is a weird combination of GT3 RS, Panamera, and a honey badger. There is really nothing else quite like it. Even though I'd prefer louder exhaust and more "unpadded" vibrations, it's unique and deserves admiration. It's like an ironman suit that's just as comfortable and normal-looking as a regular suit. I'd still prefer GT3/RS for the track.
I think Turbo gets undeserved bad rep for 2 reasons: 1) 997 and even maybe 996 turbos were a bit boring. 991.1 is miles more fun and 991.2 even more so, but are guilty by association; 2) it's become common to confuse fun/character with flaws with character or sportiness, and lack of flaws with lack of character. But that's just nonsense. If a racecar suspension bottoms out or skips, it's a limitation or a flaw, and it gets tuned out if possible. Why the heck if a street car suspension does not have these flaws, it's not sporty? And so on. Reminds me of kids putting 8 degrees of camber on their wheels and 5" exhausts dragging on the ground because it's "sporty".
For the record, I have a GT3, which I drove the **** off for 3 years (I'm now in a hotel at a track with it as well), and just bought a Turbo in addition, after much deliberation. I will keep both for now, but GT3 may be the first one to leave because it's almost as good as a race car, so once I get my hands on a GT4CS or something similar, GT3 will not see much use. Turbo is a weird combination of GT3 RS, Panamera, and a honey badger. There is really nothing else quite like it. Even though I'd prefer louder exhaust and more "unpadded" vibrations, it's unique and deserves admiration. It's like an ironman suit that's just as comfortable and normal-looking as a regular suit. I'd still prefer GT3/RS for the track.
IMHO, most people (not all) choose a Turbo over a regular Carrera so they can brag to their friends about their HP and 0-60 times, and how their car costs so much more than a regular 911, but they can afford it. There are fewer true driving enthusiasts among Turbo owners, certainly compared to GT car owners, but also compared to regular Carrera owners, more so when the Carrera was NA.
There are those that track their turbos regularly, but they are definitely the extreme minority of turbo owners.
That said, a 911 turbo is an incredibly capable all around car. You can daily drive it all year round in any weather without a problem. It's very fast on the track, and has supercar performance without attracting supercar attention.
If you can afford to own multiple high end Porsches, then your idea of a Turbo daily driver and a dedicated GT4CS for the track, makes a lot of sense.
Last edited by Drifting; 03-25-2017 at 07:13 AM.
03-25-2017, 07:13 AM
#14
Race Director
Trust me -PCCBs squeal, as well. also - may buy a GT3 and trade them after a couple months because they are looking for a more comfortable and less noisy ride. My Dealer deals with this all the time
03-25-2017, 07:58 AM
#15
STG
You just found 2
Lets not beat around the bush, any of the 991.2 turbo charged cars are great dailys from the base .2 to the .2 TTS - more comfortable, more practical, better torque profile than a GT3 (and for that matter ALL 991.1 cars - in terms torque profile, they even have more linear power delivery). I'm not, for a moment, saying the GT3 can be daily driven - it clearly can be.
If you want the best "out of the box" track car you bypass the the GT3 and go to the .1/.2 RS.
You just found 2
Lets not beat around the bush, any of the 991.2 turbo charged cars are great dailys from the base .2 to the .2 TTS - more comfortable, more practical, better torque profile than a GT3 (and for that matter ALL 991.1 cars - in terms torque profile, they even have more linear power delivery). I'm not, for a moment, saying the GT3 can be daily driven - it clearly can be.
If you want the best "out of the box" track car you bypass the the GT3 and go to the .1/.2 RS.
Last edited by randr; 03-25-2017 at 08:29 AM.