RE71-R for GT3?
10-17-2016, 06:38 PM
#61
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Driven near their limits, I'd expect the 991.1 GT3 to be noticeably (but not hugely) faster than the GT4 at every track, by about the same increment that the RS is faster than the GT3.
I don't yet have much seat time in the GT4 on track, but my preliminary sense is that it's easier to approach the limits of the GT4, as compared to the GT3 (but many will enjoy the particular challenge the GT3 presents).
I don't yet have much seat time in the GT4 on track, but my preliminary sense is that it's easier to approach the limits of the GT4, as compared to the GT3 (but many will enjoy the particular challenge the GT3 presents).
10-17-2016, 07:22 PM
#62
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Thanks, guys!
10-17-2016, 10:03 PM
#63
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If the GT3 and GT4 run nearly the same laptimes, I would love to know how much each of these metrics is contributing to (or detracting from) performance:
1. Extra 90hp and 1,200 rpm of the GT3
2. Much lower and closer gears (and 7 of them) in the GT3
3. Roughly 200 pounds lighter GT4
4. Electronically controlled LSD in GT3 vs. weak mechanical LSD in GT4
5. Rear Engine vs Rear-Mid engine
6. Lightning fast shift and Launch Control of PDK-S vs. 3-pedal Manual in GT4
7. Wider wheels and tires of GT3
8. Rear Wheel Steering of GT3
I've always thought #6 was over-hyped (in terms of laptimes from rolling start). Will be very interesting to see if the Manual 991.2 GT3 is way behind in laptimes or not from the 991.2 GT3 with PDK-S. Of course #2 and #4 advantages will still apply...
1. Extra 90hp and 1,200 rpm of the GT3
2. Much lower and closer gears (and 7 of them) in the GT3
3. Roughly 200 pounds lighter GT4
4. Electronically controlled LSD in GT3 vs. weak mechanical LSD in GT4
5. Rear Engine vs Rear-Mid engine
6. Lightning fast shift and Launch Control of PDK-S vs. 3-pedal Manual in GT4
7. Wider wheels and tires of GT3
8. Rear Wheel Steering of GT3
I've always thought #6 was over-hyped (in terms of laptimes from rolling start). Will be very interesting to see if the Manual 991.2 GT3 is way behind in laptimes or not from the 991.2 GT3 with PDK-S. Of course #2 and #4 advantages will still apply...
I don't think GT3 and GT4 have roughly the same lap times when driven to their potential. Let's consider this
1) Randy Pobst ran 1:37.4 at Laguna seca with the GT4
2) He did 1:33.2 in the 991.1 GT3RS
How much faster is the RS over the GT3? I would guess at least one second. 2 seconds at the most. In Pobst's hands, the car could do 1:34-35, which makes the plain GT3 2-3 seconds faster than the GT4 on a short track like Laguna Seca. That is substantially faster. The faster a car is, the harder it is to drive to it's potential.
10-17-2016, 10:10 PM
#64
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Makes sense...
10-18-2016, 12:33 AM
#65
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Yes Randys laps concur with my sentiments. Porsche engineered these cars to be 1s a 1min lap apart IMO, largely to differentiate the 50k premium they are demanding at each increment, the value proposition they present is probably the inverse in proportion to the margin PAG makes from each one too I might suspect...
I just need to learn to drive faster :-(
I just need to learn to drive faster :-(
10-18-2016, 02:33 PM
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I don't think GT3 and GT4 have roughly the same lap times when driven to their potential. Let's consider this
1) Randy Pobst ran 1:37.4 at Laguna seca with the GT4
2) He did 1:33.2 in the 991.1 GT3RS
How much faster is the RS over the GT3? I would guess at least one second. 2 seconds at the most. In Pobst's hands, the car could do 1:34-35, which makes the plain GT3 2-3 seconds faster than the GT4 on a short track like Laguna Seca. That is substantially faster. The faster a car is, the harder it is to drive to it's potential.
1) Randy Pobst ran 1:37.4 at Laguna seca with the GT4
2) He did 1:33.2 in the 991.1 GT3RS
How much faster is the RS over the GT3? I would guess at least one second. 2 seconds at the most. In Pobst's hands, the car could do 1:34-35, which makes the plain GT3 2-3 seconds faster than the GT4 on a short track like Laguna Seca. That is substantially faster. The faster a car is, the harder it is to drive to it's potential.
So stock vs. stock GT3 would be 2-2.2 seconds faster than GT4 @ Laguna. At less HP-focused tracks, like Sonoma, the difference would be slightly smaller. and on more HP-focused tracks, like many Euro tracks, it would be slightly bigger.
It's interesting how GT4->GT3->RS is almost equal intervals. Probably by design.
10-18-2016, 03:46 PM
#67
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On a pure $$$ basis, each step is very evenly separated (pretty close to $45k). $45k for 2 seconds - seems cheaper to buy Hoosiers instead
10-18-2016, 04:54 PM
#68
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One more topic of discussion regarding PDK/Manual - Matt Farrah says PDK loses 40whp compared to manual - I don't think it can be that much (given Vmax for manual is always a little higher, but never enough to reflect 40hp):
10-18-2016, 05:28 PM
#69
Three Wheelin'
He is a turd. Reporting stuff he has no idea about. "I am told" I have yet to see the manual version of any same car Porsche makes out run the PDK version. One will always "feel" the virtual power of the manual shift due to momentum loss between shifts. But..believe what you want I guess. Imagine how much difference that would do when comparing the least powerful cars, like the standard Cayman in manual vs PDK. 40 hp would be a huge difference.
10-18-2016, 05:44 PM
#70
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Right - I was thinking the same. But the Manual Boxsters and Caymans tend to go slightly faster than PDK (in top speed), suggesting a little better efficiency (probably closer to 4 hp than 40 hp though).
10-18-2016, 05:47 PM
#71
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by GrantG
One more topic of discussion regarding PDK/Manual - Matt Farrah says PDK loses 40whp compared to manual - I don't think it can be that much (given Vmax for manual is always a little higher, but never enough to reflect 40hp):
10-18-2016, 06:21 PM
#72
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Here's a comparison between the GT4 and RS at Silverstone. Sutcliffe predicted a lap time difference of 3-4 sec, thought the difference was significantly bigger than that after driving both cars, and then found that the GT4 was 1:03.0 while the RS was 1:00.0, so 3 secs difference per minute. I'd guess that the GT3 would probably have been close to splitting the difference between the two.
Interesting that the GT4 isn't perceived to be as fast as it actually is. Or the RS is perceived to be faster than it actually is. Or both.
Of course, we know that when you're already 'on it' and lapping fairly quickly, another second or two faster per lap is very noticeable.
Interesting that the GT4 isn't perceived to be as fast as it actually is. Or the RS is perceived to be faster than it actually is. Or both.
Of course, we know that when you're already 'on it' and lapping fairly quickly, another second or two faster per lap is very noticeable.
10-18-2016, 09:06 PM
#74
I don't think GT3 and GT4 have roughly the same lap times when driven to their potential. Let's consider this
1) Randy Pobst ran 1:37.4 at Laguna seca with the GT4
2) He did 1:33.2 in the 991.1 GT3RS
How much faster is the RS over the GT3? I would guess at least one second. 2 seconds at the most. In Pobst's hands, the car could do 1:34-35, which makes the plain GT3 2-3 seconds faster than the GT4 on a short track like Laguna Seca. That is substantially faster. The faster a car is, the harder it is to drive to it's potential.
1) Randy Pobst ran 1:37.4 at Laguna seca with the GT4
2) He did 1:33.2 in the 991.1 GT3RS
How much faster is the RS over the GT3? I would guess at least one second. 2 seconds at the most. In Pobst's hands, the car could do 1:34-35, which makes the plain GT3 2-3 seconds faster than the GT4 on a short track like Laguna Seca. That is substantially faster. The faster a car is, the harder it is to drive to it's potential.
GT3's are VERY similar in lap time to the Shelby GT350R (which did a 1:36.1). I'd expect the GT3 to be just barely into the 35's.
10-20-2016, 07:08 PM
#75
Driven near their limits, I'd expect the 991.1 GT3 to be noticeably (but not hugely) faster than the GT4 at every track, by about the same increment that the RS is faster than the GT3.
I don't yet have much seat time in the GT4 on track, but my preliminary sense is that it's easier to approach the limits of the GT4, as compared to the GT3 (but many will enjoy the particular challenge the GT3 presents).
I don't yet have much seat time in the GT4 on track, but my preliminary sense is that it's easier to approach the limits of the GT4, as compared to the GT3 (but many will enjoy the particular challenge the GT3 presents).
The GT4 definitely feels easier to push to the limit than the GT3 (because the limit is not as extreme, IMO).
For example, you can get on the full throttle aggressively mid-turn with the GT4, while some of those same turns would take more careful modulation with the GT3. If you error on the side of less throttle (helpful when trying to stay on the track), I feel like you leave a lot of time on the table.