911R 4 SALE in FL
08-28-2016, 07:38 PM
#136
Race Director
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Whoopsy
And they do.
Regular retail customers basically has no say to Porsche. Invisible.
Even when the collective VIP group, which for all intends and purposes have a bigger sway than regular Joe, tells Porsche something, the dealer group tells Porsche another thing. Porsche still ended up doing what the dealer wants.
Just talking about the North American VIP group, those 300 or so owners, apart from the 918s, everyone basically bought a GT3, GT3RS, GT4, R, in addition to other regular production cars like Cayenne, Panamera, 911s, all within the last 2 years or so. Roughly speaking 5 extra cars on top of the 918, that's another 1500 cars sold by Porsche just in North America alone. In Europe and the rest of the world where there isn't a VIP program, most 918 owners still most of what they want and they have at least buy another 3 cars if not more. Globally, the 918 owners basically are responsible for around 3-4000 extra cars Porsche sold. But in Porsche's eyes, the dealers are still that much more important than the 918 VIPs.
Regular retail customers basically has no say to Porsche. Invisible.
Even when the collective VIP group, which for all intends and purposes have a bigger sway than regular Joe, tells Porsche something, the dealer group tells Porsche another thing. Porsche still ended up doing what the dealer wants.
Just talking about the North American VIP group, those 300 or so owners, apart from the 918s, everyone basically bought a GT3, GT3RS, GT4, R, in addition to other regular production cars like Cayenne, Panamera, 911s, all within the last 2 years or so. Roughly speaking 5 extra cars on top of the 918, that's another 1500 cars sold by Porsche just in North America alone. In Europe and the rest of the world where there isn't a VIP program, most 918 owners still most of what they want and they have at least buy another 3 cars if not more. Globally, the 918 owners basically are responsible for around 3-4000 extra cars Porsche sold. But in Porsche's eyes, the dealers are still that much more important than the 918 VIPs.
Why do you keep bringing up the VIP's??
The VIP's aren't carrying the company. You make it sound like without them Porsche would be bankrupt.
Last year PCNA sold over 51,000 cars in the USA alone.
Like 1,500 VIP sales really matter?? Even of those, at least half probably flipped right away and don't count. Would have been bought regardless.
Porsche needs Panamera, Macan, and Cayenne buyers more than they need the VIP'ers.
08-28-2016, 10:15 PM
#137
Rennlist Member
Why do you keep bringing up the VIP's??
The VIP's aren't carrying the company. You make it sound like without them Porsche would be bankrupt.
Last year PCNA sold over 51,000 cars in the USA alone.
Like 1,500 VIP sales really matter?? Even of those, at least half probably flipped right away and don't count. Would have been bought regardless.
Porsche needs Panamera, Macan, and Cayenne buyers more than they need the VIP'ers.
The VIP's aren't carrying the company. You make it sound like without them Porsche would be bankrupt.
Last year PCNA sold over 51,000 cars in the USA alone.
Like 1,500 VIP sales really matter?? Even of those, at least half probably flipped right away and don't count. Would have been bought regardless.
Porsche needs Panamera, Macan, and Cayenne buyers more than they need the VIP'ers.
Bringing up the VIPs is to remind you that each individual buyer is a tin tiny voice amount a sea of tens of thousands individual buyers, that mostly get a new car every 3 year or 5. In other words, not very important. Perhaps Porsche might **** off 50-100 faithful because they couldn't get a R, but that excitement about that car might bring in another 1000 to the showroom just to check out and dream, maybe 150-200 of those might buy a new car and become a Porsche customer. These are the rolling turnover volume that you mentioned and stressed as the 50k+ sales a year.
Most VIP customers doesn't flip their cars, it's the dealer principals and/or the dealerships that flips them, they are untouchable after all.
08-28-2016, 11:19 PM
#138
What makes you thinks the VIPs didn't buy also the regular range cars in addition to the GT ones? I for one also bought a Macan S when it first came out last year, A Cayenne Turbo S that's arriving next month, also config-ed a Targa for the wife while I was at Stuttgart configuring my R. You might be surprised at the typical demographic of a 918 owner, 4+ Porsches (that was before buying the 918) and 10+ cars, they are quite the loyal customer of Porsche. If even when these people speak to Porsche they won't listen and would rather stand with the dealers, what makes you think a average John Doe Porsche customer has any chance of their voice getting heard?
Bringing up the VIPs is to remind you that each individual buyer is a tin tiny voice amount a sea of tens of thousands individual buyers, that mostly get a new car every 3 year or 5. In other words, not very important. Perhaps Porsche might **** off 50-100 faithful because they couldn't get a R, but that excitement about that car might bring in another 1000 to the showroom just to check out and dream, maybe 150-200 of those might buy a new car and become a Porsche customer. These are the rolling turnover volume that you mentioned and stressed as the 50k+ sales a year.
Most VIP customers doesn't flip their cars, it's the dealer principals and/or the dealerships that flips them, they are untouchable after all.
Bringing up the VIPs is to remind you that each individual buyer is a tin tiny voice amount a sea of tens of thousands individual buyers, that mostly get a new car every 3 year or 5. In other words, not very important. Perhaps Porsche might **** off 50-100 faithful because they couldn't get a R, but that excitement about that car might bring in another 1000 to the showroom just to check out and dream, maybe 150-200 of those might buy a new car and become a Porsche customer. These are the rolling turnover volume that you mentioned and stressed as the 50k+ sales a year.
Most VIP customers doesn't flip their cars, it's the dealer principals and/or the dealerships that flips them, they are untouchable after all.
08-28-2016, 11:25 PM
#139
Race Director
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Whoopsy
What makes you thinks the VIPs didn't buy also the regular range cars in addition to the GT ones? I for one also bought a Macan S when it first came out last year, A Cayenne Turbo S that's arriving next month, also config-ed a Targa for the wife while I was at Stuttgart configuring my R. You might be surprised at the typical demographic of a 918 owner, 4+ Porsches (that was before buying the 918) and 10+ cars, they are quite the loyal customer of Porsche. If even when these people speak to Porsche they won't listen and would rather stand with the dealers, what makes you think a average John Doe Porsche customer has any chance of their voice getting heard?
Bringing up the VIPs is to remind you that each individual buyer is a tin tiny voice amount a sea of tens of thousands individual buyers, that mostly get a new car every 3 year or 5. In other words, not very important. Perhaps Porsche might **** off 50-100 faithful because they couldn't get a R, but that excitement about that car might bring in another 1000 to the showroom just to check out and dream, maybe 150-200 of those might buy a new car and become a Porsche customer. These are the rolling turnover volume that you mentioned and stressed as the 50k+ sales a year.
Most VIP customers doesn't flip their cars, it's the dealer principals and/or the dealerships that flips them, they are untouchable after all.
Bringing up the VIPs is to remind you that each individual buyer is a tin tiny voice amount a sea of tens of thousands individual buyers, that mostly get a new car every 3 year or 5. In other words, not very important. Perhaps Porsche might **** off 50-100 faithful because they couldn't get a R, but that excitement about that car might bring in another 1000 to the showroom just to check out and dream, maybe 150-200 of those might buy a new car and become a Porsche customer. These are the rolling turnover volume that you mentioned and stressed as the 50k+ sales a year.
Most VIP customers doesn't flip their cars, it's the dealer principals and/or the dealerships that flips them, they are untouchable after all.
My head is spinning. At this point, I don't even know what you're trying to get across.
Is this it ??? >> Porsche could care less about the average buyer, but likes the 918 VIP's more, but not as much as their cherished BFF's (the dealers and their principals). The principals who are "protected made men"?
08-29-2016, 05:01 PM
#140
Rennlist Member
I believe the 918 VIPs "deserve" the perks they bought and paid for. I believe the 911R is a wonderful "thank you" gift from PAG, I hope more will be made in a future generation, I wonder what the true demand would be if a 4.0L manual GT3/RS were also on option. Id love to see a model lineup where the R, GT3, GT3RS were all available without shenanigans. Id like to see a world where PAG produced GT models equal to actual demand. I hope this happens before we end up with hybrids (no offense to 918 owners)
08-29-2016, 05:08 PM
#141
Race Director
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by dark knight
I'd love to see a model lineup where the R, GT3, GT3RS were all available without shenanigans.
That makes too rationale sense. Why take the sensible business approach to things? Better to follow the Hermes Birkin Handbag business model.
08-29-2016, 09:43 PM
#142
The VIPs won't be too happy if the 911R production expands above 991 units. The easy alternative is for Porsche to announce a Club Sport that's a 911R in name only. Watch for it after the last 911R is delivered.
08-29-2016, 10:14 PM
#144
Interestingly, I spoke with an experienced Porsche sales guy this week who told me that PCNA is basically telling them to start expecting more inventory of the higher volume cars (i.e., Macans) and less of the sports cars. Flat told them, expect fewer high dollar cars and more of the bread and butter. They want volume, not price.
08-29-2016, 10:39 PM
#145
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You guys are talking about demand being equal to production. I believe they are fairly equal. How many people really want a $200K car thats borderline rational? How many do you think they'd sell if they were just taking orders? Probably about 500-1,000 a year in the US in its first year? which would probably taper off in year 2 and 3? People only want it because they want whats "unattainable" at the moment. Look at the RS's, theres no shortage of cars. Take a look at the for sale sites. Tons of them available at the moment. Smart buyers just don't want to pay the "tax".
08-29-2016, 10:57 PM
#146
You guys are talking about demand being equal to production. I believe they are fairly equal. How many people really want a $200K car thats borderline rational? How many do you think they'd sell if they were just taking orders? Probably about 500-1,000 a year in the US in its first year? which would probably taper off in year 2 and 3? People only want it because they want whats "unattainable" at the moment. Look at the RS's, theres no shortage of cars. Take a look at the for sale sites. Tons of them available at the moment. Smart buyers just don't want to pay the "tax".
Basically what you have is the equivalent of a popular musician selling all his/her concert tickets to a scalper.
08-29-2016, 11:08 PM
#147
Race Director
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Archimedes
Interestingly, I spoke with an experienced Porsche sales guy this week who told me that PCNA is basically telling them to start expecting more inventory of the higher volume cars (i.e., Macans) and less of the sports cars. Flat told them, expect fewer high dollar cars and more of the bread and butter. They want volume, not price.
They're not playing the same game as the higher end exotics at this point. They've gotten too big.
08-29-2016, 11:24 PM
#148
The winter is coming, and sports car sales drop. This will be the tell all if prices hold up on all the flipper cars.
08-29-2016, 11:29 PM
#149
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I think you're missing the point. What most posters on here want is for the cars to actually be available at MSRP, or at least for there to be a more active market for them that would allow for a true market price to emerge. The way the supply is currently doled out is constricting supply. Many on here, not necessarily me, would argue that the tax is artificial, as evidenced by the small number of cars changing hands and that, left to an open market from initial sale, there would be lower prices and more people could/would afford the cars.
Basically what you have is the equivalent of a popular musician selling all his/her concert tickets to a scalper.
Basically what you have is the equivalent of a popular musician selling all his/her concert tickets to a scalper.
08-29-2016, 11:34 PM
#150
Race Director
Thread Starter
The GT cars can't come close to carrying the company. Add up the 718's, all 911's, and the GT cars, and they can't even break even. They have gotten too big.
Realistically, throw another 1,000 RS's in the US, and you've flooded the market. Under MSRP at that point.
I think you'll see drastic changes in models and the make up of the brand in the next 10 years.
Realistically, throw another 1,000 RS's in the US, and you've flooded the market. Under MSRP at that point.
I think you'll see drastic changes in models and the make up of the brand in the next 10 years.