Panorama GT3 Review
08-18-2013, 02:09 PM
#61
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I spent 10 minutes talking with Hurley Haywood in the paddock at Laguna during the Historics yesterday. I asked him if he had driven the new GT3 and what did he think of it. Don't have time now (headed back to Laguna in 5) to recount the whole conversation but the first word out of his mouth was "awesome". I also asked him if Porsche did the right thing in not offering a MT and he gave me his instructor's perspective on why a DCT like PDK offered many advantages, especially on track.
I mentioned that I had PDK in my 997.2 S and that I was looking forward to trying PDK-S in the 991 GT3. His comment was that the PDK-S experience was so far removed from PDK that it will be something completely different for me. He said that basically Porsche has engineered into PDK-S the ability to do virtually anything you can do with a manual. He was particularly enthusiastic about the paddle neutral feature. Apparently you can even engage neutral to blip the throttle in manual mode to rev match yourself on downshifts.
Hurley is a Porsche guy so make of this what you will. But he is very sincere and straightforward and I walked away feeling very reinforced about how much fun this car will be to drive.
I mentioned that I had PDK in my 997.2 S and that I was looking forward to trying PDK-S in the 991 GT3. His comment was that the PDK-S experience was so far removed from PDK that it will be something completely different for me. He said that basically Porsche has engineered into PDK-S the ability to do virtually anything you can do with a manual. He was particularly enthusiastic about the paddle neutral feature. Apparently you can even engage neutral to blip the throttle in manual mode to rev match yourself on downshifts.
Hurley is a Porsche guy so make of this what you will. But he is very sincere and straightforward and I walked away feeling very reinforced about how much fun this car will be to drive.
08-18-2013, 03:26 PM
#63
Burning Brakes
I spent 10 minutes talking with Hurley Haywood in the paddock at Laguna during the Historics yesterday. I asked him if he had driven the new GT3 and what did he think of it. Don't have time now (headed back to Laguna in 5) to recount the whole conversation but the first word out of his mouth was "awesome". I also asked him if Porsche did the right thing in not offering a MT and he gave me his instructor's perspective on why a DCT like PDK offered many advantages, especially on track.
I mentioned that I had PDK in my 997.2 S and that I was looking forward to trying PDK-S in the 991 GT3. His comment was that the PDK-S experience was so far removed from PDK that it will be something completely different for me. He said that basically Porsche has engineered into PDK-S the ability to do virtually anything you can do with a manual. He was particularly enthusiastic about the paddle neutral feature. Apparently you can even engage neutral to blip the throttle in manual mode to rev match yourself on downshifts.
Hurley is a Porsche guy so make of this what you will. But he is very sincere and straightforward and I walked away feeling very reinforced about how much fun this car will be to drive.
I mentioned that I had PDK in my 997.2 S and that I was looking forward to trying PDK-S in the 991 GT3. His comment was that the PDK-S experience was so far removed from PDK that it will be something completely different for me. He said that basically Porsche has engineered into PDK-S the ability to do virtually anything you can do with a manual. He was particularly enthusiastic about the paddle neutral feature. Apparently you can even engage neutral to blip the throttle in manual mode to rev match yourself on downshifts.
Hurley is a Porsche guy so make of this what you will. But he is very sincere and straightforward and I walked away feeling very reinforced about how much fun this car will be to drive.
My '01 996 Tip TT matched the lap times of the MT TTs and was faster and FAR more comfortable than the '04 996 GT3 I traded it for. In tracking my '10 Panamera and 991 C2S, both with PDK, I sense no loss of "involvement" from
the many MT Porsches I've tracked including the 993 GT2 I raced in PCA and SCCA from 1995 through 2005. The "involvement" just turned my attention from
shifting to the dozens of other factors involved in setting fast laps or winning races. What I'm not understanding is the importance of "Paddle Neutral" to Porsche. The F1 Ferrari transmissions have had that feature for many years
and, other than saving some clutch wear on long stops at Traffic lights in my 2003 575M, I had little use for it. With the high cost of track tires, doing donuts to convert rubber into smoke seems pretty juvenile, and I've never used Neutral during track sessions. From all the reviews I've read about the new GT3, it far
exceeds the highest hopes I've had for it and can't wait to get my November
build GT3. IMHO, I can't imagine anyone finding it "uninvolving" on a race track
or on the street as a DD. The option is always there to use the PDK in manual mode, as I often do if slow traffic makes driving boring. Crawling along on congested roads can make any drive boring and a heavy clutch pedal just added to the pain on all the previous MT Porsches I've owned.
08-18-2013, 05:21 PM
#64
Rennlist Member
I share Hurley's enthusiasm and preference for the Tip Turbo over a MT.
My '01 996 Tip TT matched the lap times of the MT TTs and was faster and FAR more comfortable than the '04 996 GT3 I traded it for. In tracking my '10 Panamera and 991 C2S, both with PDK, I sense no loss of "involvement" from
the many MT Porsches I've tracked including the 993 GT2 I raced in PCA and SCCA from 1995 through 2005. The "involvement" just turned my attention from
shifting to the dozens of other factors involved in setting fast laps or winning races. What I'm not understanding is the importance of "Paddle Neutral" to Porsche. The F1 Ferrari transmissions have had that feature for many years
and, other than saving some clutch wear on long stops at Traffic lights in my 2003 575M, I had little use for it. With the high cost of track tires, doing donuts to convert rubber into smoke seems pretty juvenile, and I've never used Neutral during track sessions. From all the reviews I've read about the new GT3, it far
exceeds the highest hopes I've had for it and can't wait to get my November
build GT3. IMHO, I can't imagine anyone finding it "uninvolving" on a race track
or on the street as a DD. The option is always there to use the PDK in manual mode, as I often do if slow traffic makes driving boring. Crawling along on congested roads can make any drive boring and a heavy clutch pedal just added to the pain on all the previous MT Porsches I've owned.
My '01 996 Tip TT matched the lap times of the MT TTs and was faster and FAR more comfortable than the '04 996 GT3 I traded it for. In tracking my '10 Panamera and 991 C2S, both with PDK, I sense no loss of "involvement" from
the many MT Porsches I've tracked including the 993 GT2 I raced in PCA and SCCA from 1995 through 2005. The "involvement" just turned my attention from
shifting to the dozens of other factors involved in setting fast laps or winning races. What I'm not understanding is the importance of "Paddle Neutral" to Porsche. The F1 Ferrari transmissions have had that feature for many years
and, other than saving some clutch wear on long stops at Traffic lights in my 2003 575M, I had little use for it. With the high cost of track tires, doing donuts to convert rubber into smoke seems pretty juvenile, and I've never used Neutral during track sessions. From all the reviews I've read about the new GT3, it far
exceeds the highest hopes I've had for it and can't wait to get my November
build GT3. IMHO, I can't imagine anyone finding it "uninvolving" on a race track
or on the street as a DD. The option is always there to use the PDK in manual mode, as I often do if slow traffic makes driving boring. Crawling along on congested roads can make any drive boring and a heavy clutch pedal just added to the pain on all the previous MT Porsches I've owned.
08-18-2013, 05:37 PM
#65
You don't get it. Understood. There are some things we'll never understand, sounds like this is one of them for you. I don't know why, I don't really care why. But just because you don't get it doesn't mean people who do get it (Chris Harris, Pete Stout, virtually the entire staff of EVO, etc) shouldn't talk about it.
If performance if your sole metric we're all driving the wrong cars.
What I'm not understanding is the importance of "Paddle Neutral" to Porsche. The F1 Ferrari transmissions have had that feature for many years
and, other than saving some clutch wear on long stops at Traffic lights in my 2003 575M, I had little use for it. With the high cost of track tires, doing donuts to convert rubber into smoke seems pretty juvenile, and I've never used Neutral during track sessions.
and, other than saving some clutch wear on long stops at Traffic lights in my 2003 575M, I had little use for it. With the high cost of track tires, doing donuts to convert rubber into smoke seems pretty juvenile, and I've never used Neutral during track sessions.
08-18-2013, 05:56 PM
#66
Rennlist Member
If I am buying a car like the GT3 I want to buy it for its maximum potential. If Porsche sold the 991GT3 with a 300hp 4 cylinder engine MT along with the 475hp 991GT3 which would you buy? The same holds true for other high performance cars. The fact is like Ferrari, Porsche recognized that double clutch transmissions enhance performance of a car over outdated MT. Today I don't believe Ferrari offers MT. I think like Porsche they know something about performance
As I wrote earlier, I don't care if people prefer MT. Wonderful but don't tell me that because I prefer PDK you are a better driver or that MT is more involving. You tell me I don't get it. I guess Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, MB, Mclaren engineers don't get it as well.
BTW, your maneuver of pop the clutch can be done with the PDK-S. You pull both paddles with your foot on the throttle and let them go at the appropriate time.
As I wrote earlier, I don't care if people prefer MT. Wonderful but don't tell me that because I prefer PDK you are a better driver or that MT is more involving. You tell me I don't get it. I guess Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, MB, Mclaren engineers don't get it as well.
BTW, your maneuver of pop the clutch can be done with the PDK-S. You pull both paddles with your foot on the throttle and let them go at the appropriate time.
08-18-2013, 06:10 PM
#67
Rennlist Member
Mike thanks for the feedback (Hurly) from Laguna. Hes a Porsche brand ambassador I assume so well have to take what he says with a little pinch of salt but it is encouraging particularly for the track guys.
In terms of paddle neutral. Mike, you may recall me when I PM'd you a long while ago telling you how my friend at the Ring said the test pilots were really enjoying this feature to get the car sideways aka "Ruf Yellowbird" style at the ring. It does have a more useful application as Pete says to set the car up for a tight corner such as on a track or a gymkhana. Ive been told we are going to learn alot about driving this new box and will discover many fun things along the way. getting used to no creep for a start, but also the ability to manually blip on downshift which was also mention by another reviewer with praise and sounds like some fun for fast road driving to try and perfect a rev match. I think there well be many dimensions to the driving experience that will take some time to master and learn.
In terms of paddle neutral. Mike, you may recall me when I PM'd you a long while ago telling you how my friend at the Ring said the test pilots were really enjoying this feature to get the car sideways aka "Ruf Yellowbird" style at the ring. It does have a more useful application as Pete says to set the car up for a tight corner such as on a track or a gymkhana. Ive been told we are going to learn alot about driving this new box and will discover many fun things along the way. getting used to no creep for a start, but also the ability to manually blip on downshift which was also mention by another reviewer with praise and sounds like some fun for fast road driving to try and perfect a rev match. I think there well be many dimensions to the driving experience that will take some time to master and learn.
08-18-2013, 06:12 PM
#68
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The 991 GT3 isn't a race car. People will be buying it to enjoy driving it, even if other cars (race and street) are faster.
08-18-2013, 06:16 PM
#69
Uh, that's what I said.
08-18-2013, 06:55 PM
#70
Rennlist Member
FWIW, I am not trying to sell anyone on PDK. I could give a rat's *** if someone preferred MT over PDK. What I do object to is MT enthusiast claiming MT is more involving than PDK. I think that is nonsense. To extract the best performance out of a car with Paddles you need to use them properly and at the right time. Many MT advocates have no conception as how much fun and interactive paddles are.
On the other hand, it is true that with PDK or F1 you can leave it in auto mode and optimize performance. However, to do so does require driving skills such as braking, correct lines, throttle control to maintain the car balance. In the end this is why we buy performance cars....PERFORMANCE!
I conclude by asking this question;
YOU'RE JUDGED BY PERFORMANCE. WHY DRIVE A CAR THAT LIVES BY A LESSER CODE?
On the other hand, it is true that with PDK or F1 you can leave it in auto mode and optimize performance. However, to do so does require driving skills such as braking, correct lines, throttle control to maintain the car balance. In the end this is why we buy performance cars....PERFORMANCE!
I conclude by asking this question;
YOU'RE JUDGED BY PERFORMANCE. WHY DRIVE A CAR THAT LIVES BY A LESSER CODE?
i) Then why aren't you buying a GTR (at half the price) or McLaren? Pagani?
ii) For an average driver as you classed yourself why do you need all this performance potential and the extra tenths of second if you aren't spending your time and effort to hone skills? Just to tell friends all about the potential of the car???
When I'm racing to spray champagne then performance will be my only concern but by the same token I'll buy a race car for the purpose...
08-18-2013, 07:53 PM
#71
Race Director
)BTW, and this isn't addressed to you Pete but just in general, I agree completely that everyone has their own opinion about what makes for "fun" so it's completely understandable that someone who feels that a MT is an absolutely essential, cast in stone part of that equation is going to have issues with the 991 GT3.
What seems to be a problem is the other side of the coin; the inability to admit or believe that for some people PDK-S in a 991 GT3 will not only be faster on track but will actually be as much fun in daily use as a MT, and not just for those who aren't adept with a stick. If we could get past this sticking point (no pun intended) I think we could all actually have an honest appreciation for the opposing POV and some of this silly back and forth would stop.
Last edited by Mike in CA; 08-18-2013 at 08:21 PM.
08-18-2013, 08:09 PM
#72
GT3 player par excellence
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Many of us are looking for confirmation of our current view points in the review articles. As AP has said many times, the new GT3 needs to be driven, then make up your mind. It's going to be a super quick car - but will it be "your cup of tea" for the track and public road driving?
I don't find my GT3 to be much fun on public roads - its too fast for the types of roads that I can drive on. Starting to think that I need to add an old air cooled 911 for fun back road driving - drive a slow (er) car fast than a fast car slow.
I don't find my GT3 to be much fun on public roads - its too fast for the types of roads that I can drive on. Starting to think that I need to add an old air cooled 911 for fun back road driving - drive a slow (er) car fast than a fast car slow.
I b buying old air cool soon.
out driving this morning, at let three out of four of us wanted old cars soon.
08-18-2013, 08:36 PM
#73
What seems to be a problem is the other side of the coin; the inability to admit or believe that for some people PDK-S in a 991 GT3 will not only be faster on track but will actually be as much fun in daily use as a MT, and not just for those who aren't adept with a stick. If we could get past this sticking point (no pun intended) I think we could all actually have an honest appreciation for the opposing POV and some of this silly back and forth would stop.
You're local mooty. Before buying you might want to take a spin in my 912. Not the crazy one, but the 180 hp '73 RS wannabe street car. Might entertain and surprise you a little, best early car value by far at the moment as far as I can see. Might even give the mighty '73 RS a run for it's money. But don't tell anybody...
08-18-2013, 09:06 PM
#74
Race Director
I think I've been pretty up front saying both "in my experience" and that it doesn't sound like the PDK is there yet. I wouldn't want a manual in an F1 car or something like a BAC mono, so I accept that the PDK is better for some usages. On the street, for me, I don't see it yet, not sure if I will. I wouldn't want a mono or an F1 car as a street car. I'm certainly open, hell I bought a dual clutch car...
08-18-2013, 09:35 PM
#75
Rennlist Member
Two questions:
i) Then why aren't you buying a GTR (at half the price) or McLaren? Pagani?
ii) For an average driver as you classed yourself why do you need all this performance potential and the extra tenths of second if you aren't spending your time and effort to hone skills? Just to tell friends all about the potential of the car???
When I'm racing to spray champagne then performance will be my only concern but by the same token I'll buy a race car for the purpose...
i) Then why aren't you buying a GTR (at half the price) or McLaren? Pagani?
ii) For an average driver as you classed yourself why do you need all this performance potential and the extra tenths of second if you aren't spending your time and effort to hone skills? Just to tell friends all about the potential of the car???
When I'm racing to spray champagne then performance will be my only concern but by the same token I'll buy a race car for the purpose...
The GT-R quality and durability stories turned me off as well as its styling.
The Pagani is over the top and I don't believe it is certified for US roads. Even if it was, I have no interest in it. The one car that did get my attention was the CGT. If it had stability management it would be in my garage today. A fabulous car that makes the hair on your neck standup. But woe to you should you make the slightest mistake when at speed. Your in the weeds in no time which I found out in a short time.
It may be my definition of average
may be different than yours but I believe it is a fair question. The GT3 provides a raw driving experience with all the driver aids to enhance performance. It will make me a better driver. What is not to like especially from a value standpoint? The car is the deal of the 21st century when you consider it will beat most of the very high priced sport cars at the Ring or even Hockeheim. When Porsche offered the GT3 only in PDK many long time GT3 owners opted not to put deposits down or put their name on a list. I benefitted from Porsche's decision because it allowed me to have a relatively early allocation since prior owners either decided to keep what they had or in a pique did not put their name on the list.
To those of you I described above I thank you with all my heart. I would not have had a chance if prior GT3 owners jumped on the 991GT3. Love you all!
