Autocar: 996 GT3 vs 997 GT3 vs 991 GT3
08-05-2015, 04:44 AM
#3
Autocar: 996 GT3 vs 997 GT3 vs 991 GT3
I don't mean to sound like a 991 fan boy or anything, and this may come out wrong, but if the 991 is the least "fun" what I gather from this article. How come non of the previous editions won best driver's car awards which are not based on the fastest cars but the most exciting, visceral and involving "fun" cars out there? Maybe they have but I can't recall...
08-05-2015, 08:24 AM
#4
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I don't mean to sound like a 991 fan boy or anything, and this may come out wrong, but if the 991 is the least "fun" what I gather from this article. How come non of the previous editions won best driver's car awards which are not based on the fastest cars but the most exciting, visceral and involving "fun" cars out there? Maybe they have but I can't recall...
08-05-2015, 09:29 AM
#5
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Autocar: 996 GT3 vs 997 GT3 vs 991 GT3
I'm not a Frankel fan. He's known as one of the least talented motor jornos behind the wheel (anyone who saw his 991 RS laps at The launch at BB will know) and is prone to poor and inaccurate reporting. Tries too hard IMO and not gifted enough. I'm sure he's a fabulous bloke. Having owned 996 GT3, 993RS and 991 GT3 I'd say he's not far off the mark on the older gear and overall weight of his conclusion. The 996 GT3 isn't confidence inspiring to drive flat out on B roads (NZ & UK ones at least). The 991 GT3 is easier to drive by far for an untalented driver but where Andy misses the point is that for someone schooled in the edgier 911s and who has a bit of track time under their belt and confidence the 991 GT3 is very involving and quick driven hard on B roads and at the track. The fact there may be a manual GT3 again is not the point. It must have a smooth 6 speed box and be involving to drive. It needs to be well blended. All IMO of course :-)
08-05-2015, 09:38 AM
#6
Autocar: 996 GT3 vs 997 GT3 vs 991 GT3
Originally Posted by GrantG
996 and 997 GT3 were perennial Best Driver's Car award winners from mags like Evo and many others.
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08-05-2015, 11:23 AM
#8
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Thanks for the article.
I definitely get where the reviewer is coming from. As I've said before, for road-only use, the 991 GT3 wouldn't be my choice, and I understand the preference for a 996 or 997 GT3.
But for track use, I definitely prefer the 991 GT3 over the other two. When trying to approach the limits of the car, the 991 GT3 still feels like a 911 and it's not 'easy' to drive - you need to exert full mental effort and be precise with your inputs, and the fun factor is there in spades. The difference is that you'll be going faster - and faster is fun too. And after more than 3K track miles in the 991 GT3, I like the PDK and would choose it over manual in this car.
I definitely get where the reviewer is coming from. As I've said before, for road-only use, the 991 GT3 wouldn't be my choice, and I understand the preference for a 996 or 997 GT3.
But for track use, I definitely prefer the 991 GT3 over the other two. When trying to approach the limits of the car, the 991 GT3 still feels like a 911 and it's not 'easy' to drive - you need to exert full mental effort and be precise with your inputs, and the fun factor is there in spades. The difference is that you'll be going faster - and faster is fun too. And after more than 3K track miles in the 991 GT3, I like the PDK and would choose it over manual in this car.
08-05-2015, 11:38 AM
#9
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I'm not a Frankel fan. He's known as one of the least talented motor jornos behind the wheel (anyone who saw his 991 RS laps at The launch at BB will know) and is prone to poor and inaccurate reporting. Tries too hard IMO and not gifted enough. I'm sure he's a fabulous bloke. Having owned 996 GT3, 993RS and 991 GT3 I'd say he's not far off the mark on the older gear and overall weight of his conclusion. The 996 GT3 isn't confidence inspiring to drive flat out on B roads (NZ & UK ones at least). The 991 GT3 is easier to drive by far for an untalented driver but where Andy misses the point is that for someone schooled in the edgier 911s and who has a bit of track time under their belt and confidence the 991 GT3 is very involving and quick driven hard on B roads and at the track. The fact there may be a manual GT3 again is not the point. It must have a smooth 6 speed box and be involving to drive. It needs to be well blended. All IMO of course :-)
08-05-2015, 11:56 AM
#10
Three Wheelin'
The 996 GT3 was the least adulterated of the series and the most elemental. I can certainly appreciate its attraction to the "analog" school of sports car enthusiasts. The 997 GT3 series were a little less analog and of course the 991 GT3 has departed almost entirely from the "elemental/analog" in terms of its technology. It's a new approach to the GT3 concept and some have embraced it while others still hold to the previous tradition. The 991 GT3 is a better all around car for most owners who gain versatility at the expense of total "purity". The 991 GT3 engine/PDK/suspension represent a unique and rewarding combination that sets new standards for any production sports car. To say the car is boring on the street is really hyperbole, since neither 996 nor 997 GT3s could be fully utilized on the street, the extra "involvement" coming from the manual transmission, less well controlled suspension, and hydraulic steering, all of which can be obtained with far less expensive and complex automobiles. I think at this point the dead horse could use a reprieve from the beatings.
08-06-2015, 11:34 AM
#11
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There have been several car mags comparing different generations of the 911 GT3 now.
In my opinion, there are only 2 reasons to choose a 997.2 GT3 over a 991 GT3.
1) You want to drive a manual transmission 911 GT3.
2) You want to spend less money to get a 911 GT3 (assuming the values of used 997 GT3's don't exceed the value of 991 GT3's).
All other reasons that are commonly mentioned by the so called "purists" are soft and not as relevant for most drivers/enthusiasts.
991 GT3 electric power steering?......sure the hydraulic system had better feel, but for virtually any application (street driving, mountain/canyon road driving, track driving, drifting), it's a non-issue. The 991 GT3 has very accurate steering and you CAN tell when then front tires are losing grip when pushing the car into understeer.
The 991 GT3 has too many electronics/computers driving itself?........stability and traction control can be completely disabled if you want. The PDK-S in manual mode gives you complete control over gear selection, allowing you to bounce off the rev limiter if you want without the transmission upshifting on its own. Rear wheel steering: a mechanical method to increase cornering agility/stability when the driver turns the steering wheel. E-diff (electronically controlled mechanical limited slip differential): acts just like a conventional limited slip differential except that it is more flexible in terms of having variable lock-up ability and even completely open differential to have the best of both worlds. Torque vectoring: yes, this feature actively brakes individual wheels to improve turn-in ability as it generates a natural yaw force when the driver turns the steering wheel........is this "cheating"??......a grey area.......I would say ABS with the computer actively pumping the brakes completely out of the control of the human is "cheating" even more.
The 991 GT3 has to be driven too fast to enjoy on the road?........irrelevant for most people. Unless you regularly drive way above the speed limit with drifting on city roads, this point is mute. You will have the same problem in a 997 or 996 GT3. Even my 10 year old C55 AMG can't be taken anywhere near it's limits safely on any city road. The track is the only place where most modern performance/sports cars' performance capability can be safely exploited and exceeded if desired.
The 991 GT3 is too easy to drive?........this point puzzles me. Previous 911's had more understeer and more snap oversteer tendencies due to it's rear engine placement. As such, they were harder to drive fast and the limits were lower. Now the 991 GT3 has dialed out understeer and oversteer, and is significantly more capable in terms of cornering speeds and is faster in terms of acceleration too, which means almost all drivers will be able to drive faster as the limits are much higher. What is the problem with that???
In addition to the very high cornering speeds which you can "feel", the 991 GT3's engine revs so fast and loud to its redline that you have to be dead to not feel excited when driving this car.
Which brings me back to my original point. The ONLY "advantages" the 997.2 GT3 has over the 991 GT3 is the increased involvement that comes with driving a stick shift manual transmission, and price. And in my opinion, there is no reason to choose a 996 GT3 over a 997 GT3, unless you really prefer the looks of the 996, and you prefer a much harsher ride with less capability, or if price is the main deciding factor.
In my opinion, there are only 2 reasons to choose a 997.2 GT3 over a 991 GT3.
1) You want to drive a manual transmission 911 GT3.
2) You want to spend less money to get a 911 GT3 (assuming the values of used 997 GT3's don't exceed the value of 991 GT3's).
All other reasons that are commonly mentioned by the so called "purists" are soft and not as relevant for most drivers/enthusiasts.
991 GT3 electric power steering?......sure the hydraulic system had better feel, but for virtually any application (street driving, mountain/canyon road driving, track driving, drifting), it's a non-issue. The 991 GT3 has very accurate steering and you CAN tell when then front tires are losing grip when pushing the car into understeer.
The 991 GT3 has too many electronics/computers driving itself?........stability and traction control can be completely disabled if you want. The PDK-S in manual mode gives you complete control over gear selection, allowing you to bounce off the rev limiter if you want without the transmission upshifting on its own. Rear wheel steering: a mechanical method to increase cornering agility/stability when the driver turns the steering wheel. E-diff (electronically controlled mechanical limited slip differential): acts just like a conventional limited slip differential except that it is more flexible in terms of having variable lock-up ability and even completely open differential to have the best of both worlds. Torque vectoring: yes, this feature actively brakes individual wheels to improve turn-in ability as it generates a natural yaw force when the driver turns the steering wheel........is this "cheating"??......a grey area.......I would say ABS with the computer actively pumping the brakes completely out of the control of the human is "cheating" even more.
The 991 GT3 has to be driven too fast to enjoy on the road?........irrelevant for most people. Unless you regularly drive way above the speed limit with drifting on city roads, this point is mute. You will have the same problem in a 997 or 996 GT3. Even my 10 year old C55 AMG can't be taken anywhere near it's limits safely on any city road. The track is the only place where most modern performance/sports cars' performance capability can be safely exploited and exceeded if desired.
The 991 GT3 is too easy to drive?........this point puzzles me. Previous 911's had more understeer and more snap oversteer tendencies due to it's rear engine placement. As such, they were harder to drive fast and the limits were lower. Now the 991 GT3 has dialed out understeer and oversteer, and is significantly more capable in terms of cornering speeds and is faster in terms of acceleration too, which means almost all drivers will be able to drive faster as the limits are much higher. What is the problem with that???
In addition to the very high cornering speeds which you can "feel", the 991 GT3's engine revs so fast and loud to its redline that you have to be dead to not feel excited when driving this car.
Which brings me back to my original point. The ONLY "advantages" the 997.2 GT3 has over the 991 GT3 is the increased involvement that comes with driving a stick shift manual transmission, and price. And in my opinion, there is no reason to choose a 996 GT3 over a 997 GT3, unless you really prefer the looks of the 996, and you prefer a much harsher ride with less capability, or if price is the main deciding factor.
08-06-2015, 11:45 AM
#12
^ well articulated point, and clearly discribes the driving nuances.
08-06-2015, 12:21 PM
#13
Three Wheelin'
Saw a beautiful 996 GT3 at Newcombs last weekend owned by Rennlister Chris. I thought it may have been a 993 at first, but hey, I'm new to the club.
Dan (thinks all GT3s are special but his just a bit moreso
)
Dan (thinks all GT3s are special but his just a bit moreso
)
08-06-2015, 01:41 PM
#14
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There have been several car mags comparing different generations of the 911 GT3 now.
In my opinion, there are only 2 reasons to choose a 997.2 GT3 over a 991 GT3.
1) You want to drive a manual transmission 911 GT3.
2) You want to spend less money to get a 911 GT3 (assuming the values of used 997 GT3's don't exceed the value of 991 GT3's).
All other reasons that are commonly mentioned by the so called "purists" are soft and not as relevant for most drivers/enthusiasts.
991 GT3 electric power steering?......sure the hydraulic system had better feel, but for virtually any application (street driving, mountain/canyon road driving, track driving, drifting), it's a non-issue. The 991 GT3 has very accurate steering and you CAN tell when then front tires are losing grip when pushing the car into understeer.
The 991 GT3 has too many electronics/computers driving itself?........stability and traction control can be completely disabled if you want. The PDK-S in manual mode gives you complete control over gear selection, allowing you to bounce off the rev limiter if you want without the transmission upshifting on its own. Rear wheel steering: a mechanical method to increase cornering agility/stability when the driver turns the steering wheel. E-diff (electronically controlled mechanical limited slip differential): acts just like a conventional limited slip differential except that it is more flexible in terms of having variable lock-up ability and even completely open differential to have the best of both worlds. Torque vectoring: yes, this feature actively brakes individual wheels to improve turn-in ability as it generates a natural yaw force when the driver turns the steering wheel........is this "cheating"??......a grey area.......I would say ABS with the computer actively pumping the brakes completely out of the control of the human is "cheating" even more.
The 991 GT3 has to be driven too fast to enjoy on the road?........irrelevant for most people. Unless you regularly drive way above the speed limit with drifting on city roads, this point is mute. You will have the same problem in a 997 or 996 GT3. Even my 10 year old C55 AMG can't be taken anywhere near it's limits safely on any city road. The track is the only place where most modern performance/sports cars' performance capability can be safely exploited and exceeded if desired.
The 991 GT3 is too easy to drive?........this point puzzles me. Previous 911's had more understeer and more snap oversteer tendencies due to it's rear engine placement. As such, they were harder to drive fast and the limits were lower. Now the 991 GT3 has dialed out understeer and oversteer, and is significantly more capable in terms of cornering speeds and is faster in terms of acceleration too, which means almost all drivers will be able to drive faster as the limits are much higher. What is the problem with that???
In addition to the very high cornering speeds which you can "feel", the 991 GT3's engine revs so fast and loud to its redline that you have to be dead to not feel excited when driving this car.
Which brings me back to my original point. The ONLY "advantages" the 997.2 GT3 has over the 991 GT3 is the increased involvement that comes with driving a stick shift manual transmission, and price. And in my opinion, there is no reason to choose a 996 GT3 over a 997 GT3, unless you really prefer the looks of the 996, and you prefer a much harsher ride with less capability, or if price is the main deciding factor.
In my opinion, there are only 2 reasons to choose a 997.2 GT3 over a 991 GT3.
1) You want to drive a manual transmission 911 GT3.
2) You want to spend less money to get a 911 GT3 (assuming the values of used 997 GT3's don't exceed the value of 991 GT3's).
All other reasons that are commonly mentioned by the so called "purists" are soft and not as relevant for most drivers/enthusiasts.
991 GT3 electric power steering?......sure the hydraulic system had better feel, but for virtually any application (street driving, mountain/canyon road driving, track driving, drifting), it's a non-issue. The 991 GT3 has very accurate steering and you CAN tell when then front tires are losing grip when pushing the car into understeer.
The 991 GT3 has too many electronics/computers driving itself?........stability and traction control can be completely disabled if you want. The PDK-S in manual mode gives you complete control over gear selection, allowing you to bounce off the rev limiter if you want without the transmission upshifting on its own. Rear wheel steering: a mechanical method to increase cornering agility/stability when the driver turns the steering wheel. E-diff (electronically controlled mechanical limited slip differential): acts just like a conventional limited slip differential except that it is more flexible in terms of having variable lock-up ability and even completely open differential to have the best of both worlds. Torque vectoring: yes, this feature actively brakes individual wheels to improve turn-in ability as it generates a natural yaw force when the driver turns the steering wheel........is this "cheating"??......a grey area.......I would say ABS with the computer actively pumping the brakes completely out of the control of the human is "cheating" even more.
The 991 GT3 has to be driven too fast to enjoy on the road?........irrelevant for most people. Unless you regularly drive way above the speed limit with drifting on city roads, this point is mute. You will have the same problem in a 997 or 996 GT3. Even my 10 year old C55 AMG can't be taken anywhere near it's limits safely on any city road. The track is the only place where most modern performance/sports cars' performance capability can be safely exploited and exceeded if desired.
The 991 GT3 is too easy to drive?........this point puzzles me. Previous 911's had more understeer and more snap oversteer tendencies due to it's rear engine placement. As such, they were harder to drive fast and the limits were lower. Now the 991 GT3 has dialed out understeer and oversteer, and is significantly more capable in terms of cornering speeds and is faster in terms of acceleration too, which means almost all drivers will be able to drive faster as the limits are much higher. What is the problem with that???
In addition to the very high cornering speeds which you can "feel", the 991 GT3's engine revs so fast and loud to its redline that you have to be dead to not feel excited when driving this car.
Which brings me back to my original point. The ONLY "advantages" the 997.2 GT3 has over the 991 GT3 is the increased involvement that comes with driving a stick shift manual transmission, and price. And in my opinion, there is no reason to choose a 996 GT3 over a 997 GT3, unless you really prefer the looks of the 996, and you prefer a much harsher ride with less capability, or if price is the main deciding factor.
08-06-2015, 01:46 PM
#15
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In the end, we can't really argue about subjectivity, we each like what we like.