JohnK964

Dr Mitch below you say it started leaking after last oil change Could be possible over fill or real sloppy wwhen filling it after change those engine tins and covers can hold a lot of oil just a thought maybe a good through cleaning I read in another thread where the side covers on the engine can soak up and the weep a lot of oil after car gets warmed up

LPMM

^^^ John beat me to it but I was thinking the same thing (overfilling, sloppy oil change, different viscosity, etc...) since your issues started after the last oil change at a different shop. Perhaps the engine is fine, especially since you say it had a couple top ends already.

Or too much time spent posting in I.H.I

John McM

Michael, your linked thread said the rebuild cost you $12,000 excluding tools. What were the major costs to get to that figure?

Also, which tools were absolutely necessary as opposed to nice to have? I ask as I seem to be buying peripheral tools that I don't likely need e.g a TDC indicator which is basically a whistle. The use for it on a 964 seems limited.

onevoice

Couple of thoughts:
As a doctor, I can't see any way to do a rebuild yourself, unless you are a lot better at keeping clean than I am. Couldn't imagine having to have hands clean enough to be a doctor EVERY DAY.

170k miles is a lot for any car. Not that these engines are done then, but it will surely have enough wear that the "while in there" decisions will almost entirely fall on the side of "do it".

Porsche parts are expensive, stupidly so if your experience is US domestic, or Japanese. That said however, you said cams were replaced, hopefully rockers also. The only other expensive item above normal wear items is a P&C set. A shop charging $24k is borderline robbery, there shouldn't be even half that in parts, and the labor is not 12 grand.

It will not be cost effective to pay to have it rebuilt. People would be lining up to buy your car in the low $30s. Makes no sense, but you could buy another one with 100k less miles for low-mid forties, and everything else in the chassis appropriately newer also.

If you did all your own work, or it was an occasional use car, the math would be different, but I would advise selling it and buying another with low miles. Drive, repeat. From that perspective, it could be cheaper than most anything you would replace it with.

onevoice

Before making a decision, you should investigate the oil leaks a little more. There are many places that can leak, some are easily fixed with the engine in the car. The first is to make sure the oil level is not too high. For being a dry sump, these engines have terrible oil control/venting. Air is constantly moving from the engine to the oil tank, then sucked to the intake. A high level in the tank can apparently allow oil to slosh into the line going to the engine, where it is sucked to the intake. That is bad enough, but oil enters the intake at a point where it can pool in the lower resonance chamber. Once there, it can leak past the rubber joint between the center of the manifold and the side portion of the manifold, or past the resonance flap shaft. The oil then drips down and is blown around by air and makes a general mess and looks to be coming from everywhere.

An engine that is cleaned and then is dripping in just a few minutes like you said, suggests a leak from a pressurized source. There is an almost endless source of potential leak sources, but very few are pressurized. The oil pressure sender, and the cover it sits on have been known to cause problems, and near the outsides of the engine, the cam housings are oiled from tubes with just O-rings on each end.

Dr Mitch

Yeah, the grease alone would be big issue for me...
I see your train of thought. I could sell it now and make a few grand - but I doubt I'd have enough left in the budget to get a pristine one.

Now, keep in mind, we're talking CAN $$ - parts got crazy expensive here with our cruddy dollar value. That is also including 13% tax and the ~$3900 or so in some other work they have already done (abs, a/c, sunroof and few other "minor" repairs). So figure around $15K US including some other work. Still a big chunk - but often read anywhere between $3-9K US for top end reseals.

Personally, if I were looking for a 964, if I didn't have unlimited funds, I'd be more inclined to look for a LOW mileage fixer upper than a high mileage one (not mine!), OR a higher mileage one that is in impeccable mechanical condition (hopefully soon to be mine).

So, I'm currently favouring the devil I know - new brakes and rotors last year, HID upgrade (easy enough to remove and save), new alternator, battery, various cables and hoses, turn signal stalk, etc.

I realize I'm taking a gamble - hoping my butt-dyno has been accurate on the shape of the engine.

JJJMCD

Agreed, 10:1 odds it's a bad oil pressure sensor and doing a complete reseal would be a profound waste of money.

Also, the timing of the start of the leaks cannot be a coincidence. Did the shop switch from non-synthetic to synthetic oil by any chance? If so, switch back to non-synthetic 10w40 oil and try running it for a month and see if the oil leaks lessen or go away entirely.

Dr Mitch

Engine is now in a few hundred pieces :\

Clutch needs replacing. Dual flywheel in very good shape though (it was replaced 4 years ago, but same clutch was used).

2 broken head studs, one looks cracked as well - so those all have to be replaced.

Delivar or other?

Has original heads - no head gasket - they are going to price out machining a groove for a ring...
Cams in great shape, cylinders all look good - going in for cleaning and inspection.
Will replace the head bolts.
Looks like there is some wear on the piston rods though - he's going to pull them and take a closer look...

Anyway, that's about all my brain could process today.
On another note, when they hooked the car up to Bosch Hammer - code says driver airbag is nonfunctional - so I may finally pull it and install the Momo Gilles Villeneuve wheel that's been hanging in my garage for the past few years unless I can find an air-bag replacement?

R6XTERRA

Dr. Mitch, I may part with my wheel. What would be a fair price for one?

I installed a Protitipo.

Jeff

Michael D'Silva

Well, I ended up doing a lot of other little things...plus I split my case which probably wasn't necessary but I was this far in, so ended up doing it. My main bearings were within spec, but I replaced with new genuine porsche (only use the porsche branded glycos)
- gen porsche main bearings
- gen porsche rod bearings
- new clutch and clutch slave cyl
- supertec head studs
- cams re ground due to pitting
- powdercoat all tins
- new rings
- heads reconditioned (no valves or springs replaced, just the valve guides)
- conrod bushings replaced and resized
- new timing chains and guides
- all new gaskets, or rings, washers, oil seals etc
- sandblasting and powder coating engine tins and engine mount bar
- vapour blasting rocker covers and exhaust system
- recondition starter motor and alternator (why not?)
- new plug leads, coils, dist covers, rotors, etc

I bought some tools such as rear main seal tool, dial gauges, z-block, cam holding tool...

surprising how it all adds up!

Here's a funny thing.. when I started it for the first time and did the 20minute cam break in, it started dripping oil like a leaky tap.. turns out that my oil pressure switch decided that NOW was the time to blow, leaking all over my pristinely clean motor. That afternoon, I bit the bullet and pulled the motor and trans out again, to clean it and replace the oil pressure switch and sender unit with new gen porsche. No leaks since and it has been dry so far.
I did not put rings in the cylinder/head location.. left it as is, but had them lapped in. Can always do it later should the need arise.

Dr Mitch

Hey Jeff,

Thanks! I may take you up on the offer.
Not sure what they're worth - a quick look at past FS, go anywhere from 100-250...
What colour is the steering wheel?

sudschleife

Fix it and if you need the funds down the line sell it. It will be much easier to sell when the car is sorted and the pool of buyers will be significantly larger. You will also be able to get most if not all the money you've put into it back. Good luck!

memo555

Considering the price you paid for it, you would recoup most, if not all, of the extra cost if you keep it another year or two after the most expensive scenario you described. So I would for sure go for it. If you enjoy tinkering, you can try it out yourself.

Even if you just pulled the engine and re-installed it yourself, you'd save $ on labor. Some hard work can save you lots of money.

rkwfxd

I would really REALLY like to have a 964. Especially a white one. And I think I would prefer to have one that needs an engine rebuild with a purchase price at $22K. That way, I could buy the car for say $22K, put another $20K into a FULL engine rebuild and happily own a FRESH 964 for about $42,000. From what I have seen locally (So Calif) that would actually be a pretty good deal.

Dr Mitch

That was my logic in deciding to go ahead with the rebuild - plus it's in Canadian dollars - so 964 with all the suspension goodies, two sets of wheels, new rotors and pads on all four corners, new clutch and a rebuild for under $48K CAN = $36US (even with 160K miles) is not a bad price IMO.

Thanks for all of the advice and ideas - it wasn't an easy decision (well, it became easier when I remember what it's like to drive it - especially compared to my daily beater Honda Element!!).