RaceDevelopments

Couple things:

35 ft. lb gain ain't happenin' on a stock 964 engine, it just isn't. There isn't 35 ft. lbs to be gained from the best exhaust & software in the whole world.

Aeroquip coupling system does not keep the tubing diameter constant. In fact it does the opposite. It's a ball and socket joint - used by Porsche since the 80's. Does this mean anything for 90% of 964's? No because the cams, even "Supercup", are mild. Remember, these are 2 valve engines anyway.

2 3/4" merge collector - even if this was the OD of the tubing, that is entirely way too big for any air cooled motor, even a 4 liter. Hell, a GT3 engine that makes 400bhp at 8000 rpm doesn't need even close to a 2 3/4" merge collector. You LOSE exhaust gas velocity big time using that size tubing.

FVD, markets the German connection well, but man, design team needs to go back to the drawing board.

Any and all my statements above can be backed up by dyno graphs done with proper protocols for accuracy and repeatability.

kos11-12

Interesting point there .

Rhonda@FVD

I spoke with M&M on your friend’s behalf. They asked how old the system was that your friend had that was making the drone. May be a mute point for you now but, they have already made changes to the muffler internally to compensate. The systems have far less drone than the original design, are far more robust and are slightly better on power than the first generation of systems they produced.

That is the beauty with M&M they take the feedback that they get from race teams and individuals and adjust to make their systems better. The off the shelf concept does not apply to them.

M&M can also make quieter systems for the track if you like. Anyone interested in a system should specify the dB’s needed at a standing or passing measure for your local track and they will do their best to accommodate. I certainly don’t know many U.S. street exhaust manufacturers doing the same.

In regards to the heat. Was that a Cat Bypass system that your friends had? The M&M systems use extremely long primaries so they like to generate heat from the cat area. A cat bypass would obviously make less heat, so I would recommend the 100 cell set up for much colder climates.

Also, do you happen to know the base number on the 290 PS car? Typically, (would appreciate you to confirm the original numbers) stock cars were around 250 PS new. Not sure about what the Ruf engine (stock) would be running as a baseline.

Out of curiosity, does the DW-technik and Tusche have heat? I have not seen a heat option from Fuchs. I will check into those guys as well to see if that would be something that we can offer here in the U.S. along side our 2 other supplier offerings.

Thanks for your comments. That kind of feedback can only make us better.
Rhonda

Thanks for your comments, important for me to clarify a few things for you.

I double checked with our software engineers on my reference on the 35 lb. ft . The car also had a LB2 Kit. That was my error and I apologize. FVD Germany always uses LB2 kits which include software, I should have referenced that correctly.

I double checked the german description (referenced from their datasheet, below) which I translate to write these descriptions, the collector clamp that they use is actually 70 mm, hence the 2 ¾ inch reference. The collector itself is actually 63.5 mm (2 ½ inches). I also double checked directly with M&M on the primary size as that is not listed and would be helpful for guys / girls to know. It is 45 mm (1 ¾ inches). So if anyone is to blame it is me, not the Engineers Germany. I will change my text in the description above but all of the technical information about the M&M systems is correct on our website. Again my apologies for that.

Porsche 911
Typ: 964
Modell: Sauger
Kennzeichnung: M&M64S011
Power Kit: einflutig

1x Endschalldampfer Einflutig
1x Endrohr M&M Design
2x Facherkrummer 964 S Powerkit
2x Sport-KAT 964S mit Heizungsverblechung
4x AeroQuip Schelle DM 63.5
1x Befestigungsschelle DM 63.5
2x Haltebander
1x Aero Quip Schelle DM 70
Material: Edelstahl 63.5mm
Endrohr: Edelstahl 1 x oval schrag einergerollt 116x86
Lautstarke: TUV / Export
KAT: 100 zellen optional
Kategorie: Street
Gewicht netto: 23.5 kg
Gewicht brutto: 29.4 kg

evoderby

Compliments Rhonda on your imo very professional response...

911Jetta

+1 I was thinking the exact same thing.

kylejohnston1

Agreed!

koenig_roland

yes. Of course, because here it`s f*cking cold half the year :-)
Respect to your feedback too.

I don`t know how old his system was. He had the car round about 3 years... There was no bypas, the flexible pipe, that directes the heat to the heater-flaps was (is) the weak point at their heat-solution. Both guys had problems there and i (virtually) know a third user with the same problems.

Any of the exhaust guys here from germany are able and willing, to produce good stuff, if you ask them for. I`m sure M&M is no exception here... But for me, M&M missed the first shot. And i had two of their systems in my nearshore 964 hood. It`s so a small potential customer group, you`ve to 'hit the black' (german proverb) with the first shot :-)

kos11-12

Hi Rhonda,
Interesting , many of 964 owners including me are running aftermarket ECU with standard exhaust , with by pass and less primary or secondary muffler , we are also running bigger capacity injectors, TPS, WBD sensor,
with this set up maximum power come to around 300 bhp and 270 lbs torque , (depending on dyno reding , some more optimistic than others)


What more could we expect with your top of the range exhaust system ,
And of course I understand we will need a new remap .
Thanks for your reply .

davidwilson11

Have you got a link to these suppliers?

RaceDevelopments

Even 2 1/2" collectors are way too big for an air cooled motor. Same with 1 3/4" primaries unless you are running some very aggressive cams/intake system.
Below is a dyno chart showing an 9 ft. lbs gain to the wheels at 4,000 rpm, going down from 2 3/8 to 2 1/4.
I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but this community is spending a lot of money for products that aren't marketed accurately.

koenig_roland

dw has different diameter solutions. From 42mm up to 44mm when i remember right. Also avail with heat.

http://www.dw-technik.de/produkte1/01_dw64fk44.php

here is tusche.

http://www.tusche-maschinenbau.de/start.htm

works also for audi-motorsport and did the mühlbauer racing exhaust for le mans 993`s in the 90th. Has no proper picture on his page, specific with the 964 exhaust. The 964 exhaust is exclusively made for my mechanic (skramovsky motorsport). Also with heat available..
The tusche 964 headers are 41mm diameter.

kos11-12

From what I red t the standard heads
exhaust port is 38, If this is correct, I feel fitting a different exhaust system with bigger OD primeries is a waist of time .
Your Call guys

Rhonda@FVD

Thank You but I am just doing my job. I apologize again for any confusion.

I completely understand your stance.
They only started to make the 964 line about 3 years ago now. So as I mentioned, those were early systems. Did you purchase those directly from M&M in Germany? Or via dealers there? Were any purchased through FVD? The reason that I ask is that typically each salesperson will ask how much power the car is making, what hardware you have on the car, what you are planning to do to the car, etc. If it is a track car we would have asked the dB’s needed. We would have steered you towards the right product and do the leg work with either of our suppliers to get you the right product.

Thank you for your interest and detailed information. If it’s not too much bother, would you send me a private message with your email address? I will chat with our engineers in Germany and send an offer complete with the gains, part numbers, etc. That way you will have it documented for future reference. I will also add the appropriate Rennlist discounts for you.

With all due respect, can you please get that info privately? Competition only makes us better, but this thread was started with the intention of sharing what FVD exhaust systems we can offer to benefit the Rennlist community.

I think perhaps you didn’t take the time to read my entire post. I mentioned that some of the systems included in the above pricing were M&M exhaust. Those are the systems that run the larger diameters.

If you had checked, we offer 13 different exhaust systems for the 964. We offer such a wide range so that we can accommodate clients on all tuning paths. We also offer systems with 1.6 inch (42 mm) collectors, etc.
If a client is interested in our exhaust, we ask each client what they are currently running (ie aftermarket performance parts), if they plan to add 3.8L kit, cams, etc. How much power the car is making / will make, etc. We sell Mahle 3.8 Kits with differing compression, 5 different sets of cams, our MAF kit with software, etc, etc, etc. We have been building motors for over 30 years now. Obviously we would need different systems to compensate for differing power.

You’re not raining on my parade; I am only glad that you are commenting as any clarification that I can add is better for the community. Thank you again for pointing out my mistakes.

Have you spent money with us for a product that has not been marketed accurately? If not, please let me know who has money with FVD for a product that was not marketed accurately?

If you are referring to this post, I made 2 mistakes on my initial post and corrected them, if you had checked the website you would have seen that the information was accurate. I apologized, I am only human, but nobody has spent anything since I posted.

If you are referring to something that you purchased or someone you know then please let me know how I can rectify the situation.

Perhaps those of you that have purchased from us and myself in particular, can chime in if you have felt slighted by the FVD marketing?

Hopefully many of you have dealt with me personally. I take great pride in what I do, I go to great lengths to take care of Rennlist members. So please, if you know of someone who has spent money on a product that was not marketed accurately let me know.

RaceDevelopments

I went to your website to look at some of the exhaust systems your company offers for the 964.

None of the systems you offer have 1.6" (42mm) collectors. Maybe you are confused as to which part of an exhaust manifold is called the collector? Maybe the primaries are 42mm.

Here is the system I am referring to:
http://www.fvd.net/us/en/Porsche-0/-...hout_Heat.html


That system looks awfully similar to this one. Are you sure it's Made in Germany?

RaceDevelopments

I also have never, ever, seen a mandrel bent primary crack in a bend. I have seen thick-wall cast stainless collectors crack - I've seen cracks at weld joints where a thin metal was being welded to a thicker metal (cold weld ensues from improper welding preparation). Rhonda, can you provide pictures of 1 piece mandrel bent primaries that have cracked in the bend?