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I'm really surprised to hear you say something like this and actually strongly disagree.
In what way? The 993 had a lot of significant changes to it to soften and make the car less raw or sports car like. The steering rack ratio, rear suspension, brass components in the tranny, rubber in the tie rod ends, added 6th gear/overdrive, revisions to the interior/exterior and revised stereo are among some of the things that IMO make it more GT and less raw/visceral compared to a 964. IMO this is the "beginning" of the 911's transition towards a GT car wasn't saying it was a pure GT car which I consider the new 911's to be. The 993 and 964 still have a lot in common and it is still more of a sports car IMO than the 996 and so on. After driving the 928 extensively which was purely a GT car albeit sporty and jumping into a 996/997 etc you feel remnants of the old 911 with heavy 928 overtones. The 993 IMO has a little of that feel as well compared to the 964 which still retained most of what I liked about my SC's and long nose 911 minus the awkward rebound of the torsion bar suspension. Once Porsche dropped the 928/968 line it is my opinion they started to combine two markets and focus on what sells at that time.
I am not putting the 993 down in any way nor is it my intention to place one over the other. So if my opinion is taken as an assault that is not my intention each variant has its pros and cons and these are my observations on how one varies vs the other. What makes one better is based on what the individuals needs are.
If I can get my garage cleared out and some of these projects completed you will have to come over and we can drive the 964, 928 and your 993 and I think you will find I might not be that far off although some of the things changed in the base 993 were not part of the turbo. Heck I think i can shoot an arrow in the air and it might land on your roof you are so close by I drive by your place almost daily. It would be an interesting comparison.
By the same logic, a 3.2 Carrera is "more raw" than a 964 and therefore better...or is the 964 the perfect amount of rawness?
Bill wrote up a detailed comparison on Pelican. I can't declare a winner. For me, it simply comes down to looks. I'd really like to own both generations. Best of both worlds
Based on your stable I don't think you have to worry. That white over red combo always gets me. Is it matador red or another color red? I am a huge black interior fan but the white over red is one I would give into.
BTW they had a 3.0CSL at the auto show yesterday. I had an opportunity to buy one a number of years back and I am kicking myself for not doing so. Still one of the few BMW's I appreciate and wish I had purchased.
The color is called Flamenco red which is a darker red than the bright boxster red, and darker tan my carrera red on my boxster spyder
By the same logic, a 3.2 Carrera is "more raw" than a 964 and therefore better...or is the 964 the perfect amount of rawness?
Bill wrote up a detailed comparison on Pelican. I can't declare a winner. For me, it simply comes down to looks. I'd really like to own both generations. Best of both worlds
I guess we can do a complete 911 system analysis starting at the beginning but then we might have to add roughness into the wording as well.
I am well aware of Bill's contributions both here and on Pelican. He has done a lot to document the differences. The key difference between a 964 and 993 is the simplest to point out in the rear suspension. The 964 albeit a revision of the 3.2 was basically an update to an old design. The structural rigidity gained by the stiffer tub also increased the weight considerably this was offset by the 3.6L higher Hp engine. There was little gain overall one canceld out the other in some peoples minds. However what gives the 964 its old school feel that is engineered out of the 993 is the antiquated rear swing or trailing arm design. Porsche new a long time ago that the torsion bar design needed to be replaced by coil overs they did that with the 964. However they took the kinematic suspension from the 928 refined it and added it to the 993. This opened the doors to many changes and without a doubt made the car more capable and easier to drive. IMO this took away some of the raw charm of the old school 911 that was retained in the 964. It was a necessary design change although I grew up driving long nose 911's and SC's so the 964 is a modern version of what I like the 993 is still an air cooled classic but has the beginnings of the modern day 911 feel.
I think you get the point. I agree own one of each and as many as you can afford. Even the quirky older 911's are a blast to drive I just don't feel as safe in them as I did years ago.
Originally Posted by jvmax
The color is called Flamenco red which is a darker red than the bright boxster red, and darker tan my carrera red on my boxster spyder
Gorgeous on both counts Not quite the matador red of the 964 era but a darker red which I like a lot.
The 993 had a lot of significant changes to it to soften and make the car less raw or sports car like. The steering rack ratio, rear suspension, brass components in the tranny, rubber in the tie rod ends, added 6th gear/overdrive, revisions to the interior/exterior and revised stereo are among some of the things that IMO make it more GT and less raw/visceral compared to a 964.
Exactly. The 964 is tighter/lighter and sleeker with the lowest cd of all.
Then, there is the incontrovertible fact that at the end of the day the 964 is a 911. The 993 is, well, a beautiful car, I love them, but not a classic 911 and though air cooled, it is, under the skin and at the core, only a close relative of the original form that enjoyed an incredible longevity spanning over 30 years from 1963-1993. This feat by a supercar is not likely to ever be repeated. Look how long the 993 body lasted.
To get back to the value subject, I just wanted to outline that the prices in Europe increased on both models as well.
I don't see the difference lowering (narrowing ? What is the correct word ?) , maybe because there are fewer 993 for sale than 964s. Even though there are fewer buyers for 993, they might want to spend more. That is what I understand from comments on local ads, on our French forum.
I have to say when I see my 964 next to a 993 I do think mine looks better. I do see some 993's around town occasionally and if one goes for sale I'll probably pick one up. But for now i'm content
So at least we are back on track this has become about personal preferences and better or best instead of current market movement which is not what was intended. I am not saying what is better or best just where the market is heading and possibly why? As the article ended albeit a tiny bit biased shall we say the 964 was the last of the car that Porsche built that "would mean everything to someone" or is that pushing it? Clearly Porsche stated modifying the 911 after the 964 that was intended to target a specific market which was not what I observed prior to and up through the 964.
BTW why am I getting blasted with AdChoices advertisements that won't go away on rennlist?
Not meant as a troll, here is a few pictures of long lost headlight twins.
(My opinion gents, please don't take offense, the 993 is a fantastic car, but looks wise it has nothing on a 964 or earlier 911's).
Not meant as a troll, here is a few pictures of long lost headlight twins.
(My opinion gents, please don't take offense, the 993 is a fantastic car, but looks wise it has nothing on a 964 or earlier 911's).
Yeah, i knew you had a point...
They do share the same kind of headlights on body curves.
But the 993 is not the red headed stepchild that the 928 has been.
04-13-2015, 12:09 PM
